High Dose Niacinamide Self-Experiment.

[youngsinatra]

Hey guys,

I am very interested in this substance called niacinamide (NAM). I read some articles out of the orthomolecular space about it's benefits for arthritis, depression, anxiety and even shizophrenia.
I am struggling with depression and low energy for quite a while, and I just wanted to give this a try. I feel like I got the foundation of diet and lifestyle right, which helps me a ton, but I feel like I could benefit from a little addition of something like niacinamide to push me a bit over the edge. The NAD+ boosting effects seem also very good to me.
Dr. Hoffer, who did therapy with people with shizophrenia and/or other psychiatric illnesses recommended 1000mg of NAM 3 times a day, which would be 3000mg per day in total.

I would like to share some perceived effects from this experiment with you, and would also love to know your experiences (if you have any) with higher dose niacinamide.
Also let me know, if you would have any concern with this experiment. (Methylation, Depletion of other Nutrients...) - maybe TMG or B-Complex would be needed in addition.

Peace!

 

[Cloudhands]

Chris masterjohn reccomends a 1:1 ratio of TMG to Niacinamide when supplementing

 

[youngsinatra]

Chris masterjohn reccomends a 1:1 ratio of TMG to Niacinamide when supplementing

Interesting. Can you like me a source, so that I can investigate in that a little more. Would be awesome. Thanks!

 

[Cloudhands]

Interesting. Can you like me a source, so that I can investigate in that a little more. Would be awesome. Thanks!

054: Why You Should Be Careful With Niacin and Nicotinamide Riboside

Chris Masterjohn Lite Episode 54

chrismasterjohnphd.com

 

[youngsinatra]

Thank you! I just ordered some TMG from a german supplier. - 240 capsules of 500mg TMG for 19,00 Euro is pretty cool.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Supplementing creatine should also help with methyl pool depletion from niacinamide, since about 50% of those methyl groups are used for creatine synthesis endogenously.

 

[youngsinatra]

I am awaiting my package of TMG.
Then I will try the recommended 1:1 ratio of NAM:TMG - experimenting with this for a while and maybe change the ratio to 2:1 of NAM:TG.

I've seen the recommendation for TMG in the NAD Anti-aging space quite a lot. Maybe this is the reason that some people have negative experiences with NAM because of depleted methyl pools.

Let's see where this is going.

At the moment I am doing 2000mg a day. 1000mg around 12am and another 1000mg at 6pm.

My parents and friends noticed that I am more social, open, making more jokes and laughing much more - I feel more like my old self before depression kicked in.
I think my verbal fluency improved.
I feel more energetic and motivated to do stuff - I started writing a book just for fun, made infographics for instagram and danced through my apartment, because I had so much energy.

I also feel less perfectionistic, less rigid in my mind, more playful, I don't know. So far so good.

 

[Highserotonin90]

Do you think that in the absence of TMG it is possible to use food choline from eggs, which is TMG as the final product? Choline -> Betina -> TMG.

 

[youngsinatra]

Do you think that in the absence of TMG it is possible to use food choline from eggs, which is TMG as the final product? Choline -> Betina -> TMG.

I was thinking about this too. I don‘t know actually. I eat 4 eggs daily for choline.

I also speculate that B12, Folate and B6 would be needed for the increased methylation?
I have them in my B-complex from pure encapsulations so I think I am good with some additional TMG.

Anyone having more knowledge on this than myself?

 

[Ben.]

Dr. Hoffer, who did therapy with people with shizophrenia and/or other psychiatric illnesses recommended 1000mg of NAM 3 times a day, which would be 3000mg per day in total.

Peace!

Isn't 3 grams already very high for a non schizophrenic person? With Niacin there has been research that 1g per day for a year already resulted in a stable 800 % increased level of NAD+. (in muscles i think).

What i'd like to know what the potential downsides of this could be. We know bacteria in the gut produces b vitamins right? Would supplementation force increased utilization/production of b vitamins long term so that at some point we dont have to take them anymore? Dr. Stasha Gominak certainly thinks that supplementation along with vit d restores natural b levels/production after a while.

But what if it messes with the "natural" mechanisms long term? Like steroids messing up bodybuilders own testosterone production.

Also there seems to be conflicting perspectives wether niacin (nicotin acid) or nicotinamid is the safer option of the b3 vitamins. From my limited understanding i think the mechanisms/effects are not completly the same either (maybe rotate between the two? or is that beyond stupid?)


Some interesting reddit biohacker posts in terms of dosage and niacin/nicotinamide difference:

Niacin Cures Systemic NAD+ Deficiency and Improves Muscle Performance in Adult-Onset Mitochondrial Myopathy

AFAIK and I’ve extensively researched Niacin and have been taking it for years, it does not require any co factors to work per say.
You should however supplement with the other B Vitamins and take some gentle liver protective agents like Taurine and Vitamin C with it.
Niacin, and all NAD+ precursors are methyl absorbers and can lead to hyperhomocysteinemia if not also taking B9 and B12. I recommend folinic acid to bypass any MTHFR issues people may have and my preferred type of B12 is hydroxocobalamin. It’s also a good idea to take B2 and B6 as they assist in the metabolism of homocysteine. A B complex will do.
As for the liver issues, Niacin has been known to cause liver damage in extreme cases. Almost always with the extended release forms so don’t take those.
Taurine and Vitamin C are hepaprotective and safe to take daily along with Niacin to avoid any potential issues.
Niacin can also cause hypoglycemic symptoms in some people and it’s recommended to take it with food to mitigate this if it’s an issue.

Niacin: The Real Story, by Abram Hoffer, MD


Something interesting about niacin is that the body actually has a NIACIN receptor apart from the function of NAD. Other forms of vitamin B3 like niacinamide don’t bind to this receptor. Interestingly enough, butyrate also binds to this receptor. It appears to be pretty anti-inflammatory. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is connected to the benefits of the flush.
Activation of Gpr109a, receptor for niacin and the commensal metabolite butyrate, suppresses colonic inflammation and carcinogenesis Activation of Gpr109a, receptor for niacin and the commensal metabolite butyrate, suppresses colonic inflammation and carcinogenesis - PubMed
Niacin Ameliorates Neuro-Inflammation in Parkinson's Disease via GPR109A Niacin Ameliorates Neuro-Inflammation in Parkinson's Disease via GPR109A - PubMed
Activation of the niacin receptor HCA 2 reduces demyelination and neurofilament loss, and promotes functional recovery after spinal cord injury in mice Activation of the niacin receptor HCA 2 reduces demyelination and neurofilament loss, and promotes functional recovery after spinal cord injury in mice - PubMed

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**Vitamin B3 (Niacinamide) Cures Alzheimer's Disease and Restores Memory In Mouse Study
By Michael Mooney**

September 6, 2011

A study was conducted with mice that showed that high doses of vitamin B3 (niacinamide) caused complete reversal of Alzheimer's Disease, including re-gaining memory.

OK. While this is interesting, it's a mouse study, not a human study.

Well, the results were so exciting that a human study is being conducted at UCLA with the co-operation of the Alzheimer's Association.

I am eager to see the results of that study but rather than wait a year or two to talk about it, I am telling people about this potential effect now.

Niacinamide is not toxic at the dose that this study says works, 3,000 mg a day and it's inexpensive so why not see if it helps people and their loved ones suffering from this debilitating disease.

DOSING
Note that because niacinamide blood levels decrease after about 90 minutes, the most effective dosing would likely be 250 mg every 90 minutes. But that's too much work.

The UCLA study is giving subjects 1,500 mg twice a day. Hopefully, they're using sustained-release niacinamide so that blood levels stay relatively constant.

The only product I found that fits the bill is made by Source Naturals and it's widely available both in stores and on the internet. It's called Source Naturals, Niacinamide B-3, Timed Release, 1500 mg, 100 Tablets.

To read a review of this data, read: Dr. Williams Digestive Health Supplements | Healthy Directions | Healthy Directions

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DO NOT TAKE TIME RELEASED NIACIN OR NIACINAMIDE. It is the type most consistently associated with liver damage.
Immediate release Niacin is preferred for this reason. It's actually something Hoffer talked about extensively.

I assume wether it is niacin or nicotinamide, a b complex is recommended along with vit c, d and perhaps taurine in long term ussage. I didnt know about TMG so that is very helpful.

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Have you guys also tried to asses what the best B1 (Thiamin) and B12 forms are for you?
Thiamin as Sulbutiamine seems to cross the Blood Brain Barrier alot easier as a fatsoluble form and seems to be prefered among biohackers and as treatment for beriberi patients. I've read reports of very good effects similar to the effectivness of antidepressants. Which is why i think it is worth mentioning it for your experiement.
Thiamin as Benfotiamine is also an option but i didn't get to read to much into that one yet.
Thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide also seems to be an interesting choice for Blood Brain barrier passing.

Altho the standard Hydrochloride or Mononitrate seem to work for some peope altho they are supposedly not nearly as effective and need higher dosages (which are the two forms mostly used in b complexes)

There is also an interesting guy i found on youtube who claims that his Cerebrial Wasting Syndrome got taken care of by the active form thiamine pyrophosphate applied under the tongue and other thiamin forms didnt help, he also claims the following in terms of B12:

This is why one person can claim miracles over a simple intervention while others circle the drain. The most heinous inflicted defect in mitochondria is the inability to phosphorylate.
This was silently being addressed decades ago when P5P was put on the market to replace B6. Later we saw R5P. I didn't know for 30+ years that there was an active form of B1: thiamine
cocarboxylase = thiamine pyrophosphate = thiamine diphosphate.
That single bit of knowledge changed my life. Because I don't pander to the 80% of the money stream in alterNOTive medicine I have to work things out like:

Cyanocobalamin = industrial poison.
Methylcobalamin = only useful to UNDER methylators; poison to OVERmethylators.
Hydroxycobalamin = useless to those who can't covert it to methyl or adenosyl forms.
Adenosylcobalamin = only functional form of the substance for those about to DIE.

Likewise: you show the biochemistry for a WORKING cell and name your choice of a substance that still TRICKS it into the body. This highlights that even if mitochondria weren't damaged then the cell surface and transport systems might be. We're all in a world of hurt. The folks I work with don't have cells that follow the textbook pathways. My responsibility is to find the ONE form that fits all criteria for everyone so that no one gets left behind. That form would be the phosphorylated form. Why do people have oxalate problems? B1 and B6 is at the heart of trying to remedy that situation. BUT if the mitochondrial damage that LED to the oxalate crisis INCLUDES PHOSPHORYLATION DEFECTS then you can LITERALLY POISON SOMEONE WITH B1 AND B6 because the un-phosphorylated forms will build up as toxins. I suspect that the mononitrate and hydrochloride forms were invented for that purpose: to poison us and create the current BERIBERI EPIDEMIC WE SEE. So, oxalates are a problem NOT because of B1 and B6 'deficiency' but because the victims don't have textbook cell metabolism so they couldn't ACTIVATE the vitamins.

My parents and friends noticed that I am more social, open, making more jokes and laughing much more - I feel more like my old self before depression kicked in.
I think my verbal fluency improved.
I feel more energetic and motivated to do stuff - I started writing a book just for fun, made infographics for instagram and danced through my apartment, because I had so much energy.

I also feel less perfectionistic, less rigid in my mind, more playful, I don't know. So far so good.

Men this is amazing. I hope it persists even beyond supplementation. Happy for you.
I have an order of nicotinamide on my way too along with a b complex and taurine as i wanted to try that experiment myself.

I am genuinely confused as to how there isn't a supplement company selling a very combi pack for that very expirement as of yet. Biohackers and longevity enthusiasts would be all over it, considering how expensive NMN and NR supplements are.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I am awaiting my package of TMG.
Then I will try the recommended 1:1 ratio of NAM:TMG - experimenting with this for a while and maybe change the ratio to 2:1 of NAM:TG.

I've seen the recommendation for TMG in the NAD Anti-aging space quite a lot. Maybe this is the reason that some people have negative experiences with NAM because of depleted methyl pools.

Let's see where this is going.

At the moment I am doing 2000mg a day. 1000mg around 12am and another 1000mg at 6pm.

My parents and friends noticed that I am more social, open, making more jokes and laughing much more - I feel more like my old self before depression kicked in.
I think my verbal fluency improved.
I feel more energetic and motivated to do stuff - I started writing a book just for fun, made infographics for instagram and danced through my apartment, because I had so much energy.

I also feel less perfectionistic, less rigid in my mind, more playful, I don't know. So far so good.

That's awesome. Have you noticed anything with regards to hair? Like different texture, less shedding, stronger scalp etc? I don't do nearly as much b3 as you're doing and notice some massive improvements in those areas.

 

[youngsinatra]

So it‘s been a bit over a week on 2g of niacinamide.

I still have lifted mood, my skin seems to improve a bit, my metabolism increased, as I eat 4000 calories a day, as I am on a slightly bulking phase and I feel leaner as before.

I feel like I need more pro-metabolic nutrients like protein, carbs, copper, retinol, zinc, choline and magnesium to support the increased ATP production.

 

[Jing]

High dosages of niacinamide made me feel awfull, good for sleep that's it . During the day I was literally like a zombie .

 

[Ash]

I have taken 1500 mg daily of niacinamide for several years now for actinic keratosis (sun damage) on my forearms and the skin is much improved. In fact, it looks almost normal. When I take a smaller dose it begins to look worse.

 

[youngsinatra]

High dosages of niacinamide made me feel awfull, good for sleep that's it . During the day I was literally like a zombie .

How high was your dosage and did you take TMG with it to supply sufficient methyl donors?

 

[youngsinatra]

I have taken 1500 mg daily of niacinamide for several years now for actinic keratosis (sun damage) on my forearms and the skin is much improved. In fact, it looks almost normal. When I take a smaller dose it begins to look worse.

So you take it topically? how do you do that?
I am also interested in NAM topically, as it is used in many serums and solutions in skincare products.

 

[Braveheart]

So you take it topically? how do you do that?
I am also interested in NAM topically, as it is used in many serums and solutions in skincare products.

Orally??...B3 niacinamide, 1000mg is taken daily, orally for A Keratosis....500mg am. 500mg pm.

 

[Ash]

So you take it topically? how do you do that?
I am also interested in NAM topically, as it is used in many serums and solutions in skincare products.

No, orally. 500 mg x 3 most days of the week.

 

[Jing]

How high was your dosage and did you take TMG with it to supply sufficient methyl donors?

2-3 grams and no didn't take tmg

 

[dukesbobby777]

@youngsinatra

Have you been able to measure what effects TMG has added to your niacinamide supplementation?