Gyno And DHEA And Preg

[Thoushant]

I'm so worried right now.

Through some time between Dec15-May16 I have supplemented with about 100 mg preg a day, 2-3 mg DHEA pr dose(about 1-3 times a day) and sporadically progest-E(total 10-15 times).
I've since stopped. Because of dietary reasons, I've gained about 12lbs fat, so my BMI is at 31 now, It's nothing new, I once had BMI of 31 and had way less muscle mass.

BUT My the new fat is going to the breasts, I can feel a certain bounce when I walk briskly up the stairs. My nipples are always hard, Stimulating to the touch(as in.. I feel stuff down there) and I recently found a little lump beneath my right one.
I'm a bit weirded out about the always hard nips, as it may be masking gyno..?

I'm worried I did this to myself with DHEA, it is a long time use, and I might have lowered FSH/LH or have some kind of estrogen rebound? I'm not sure I had the lump before, and I may be blowing it out of proportion considering my weight gain. I'm seeing a doctor in 4 days, so I'm mentioning it to him.

Had to get this off my chest(..), Have you experienced with DHEA for such long times? Maybe I didn't use enough aromatase inhibitors while on? or have to taper off?

 

[Demyze]

Here's some helpful quotes I have saved from @haidut on the subject

"The puffy nipples are not only a symptom of high estrogen. If it is only the puffy nipples then it could be a number of things involved. High progesterone can also cause puffy nipples, just ask a pregnant woman. Low salt in your diet can also cause puffy nipples. High ration of T/DHT can also cause puffy nipples. Ask any bodybuilder about that. Finally, high cortisol can also cause puffy nipples even though admittedly if cortisol is high then estrogen will also be elevated. However, if cortisol is normal but the cortisol/DHEA ratio is high then that can also cause puffy nipples. Unless your prolactin and/or estrone (sulfate) are high on several consecutive tests I don't think you can safely conclude you have high estrogen.
Just my 2c."

"I would add estrone sulfate (E1S) if possible. Most labs can test for it but the doctor has to request it since it is usually not available from self-service retailer like directlabs.com
Prolactin above range but below 50 is usually due to hypothyroidism and/or liver function, which tend to go together. Sometimes bringing vitamin D in range can help as prolactin can also be elevated due to PTH. So, I guess check PTH, calcium, calcitriol and CO2 is possible as well."

"Gynecomastia can be reversed by topical progesterone but I think drugs like bromocriptine and cabergoline have even stronger track record clinically. You can search PubMed for things like "bromocriptine gynecomastia" to get quite a few studies. DHT is even more effective topically, and I think Pansterone is a close approximation to DHT when used topically."

If you search you can find some discussion and the original threads.

I'm not sure based on what I've read on the forum that dose of DHEA would really be estrogenic, but maybe if you have really high cortisol it would be aromatized even at that low of a dose? Have you noticed any varicose veins (caused by estradiol)? I stopped using any DHEA because of bad veins.

I would check Prolactin (indicative of tissue estrogen activity) and PTH (vitamin d could be helpful to test with it) first to rule out true gyno driven by estrogen/prolactin

If those are good it could just be puffy nipples from increased progesterone or you could get cortisol, total test, DHEA-S, and ADG to see what the ratios look like.

Hope that helps! I'm dealing with this too so your not the only one

 

[Tarmander]

I love Pregn, makes me feel fantastic. Makes my muscles stronger, my mood better, my blood sugars lower...its awesome. However it causes gyno for me too, so I stay away from it. I am not really sure why as I cant afford the tests to figure it out. What I have gathered is that it pushes my metabolism too much, and my body reacts with upping the estrogen and cortisol. Basically it raises all my hormones, and some of those cause boobies.

 

[Parsifal]

I love Pregn, makes me feel fantastic. Makes my muscles stronger, my mood better, my blood sugars lower...its awesome. However it causes gyno for me too, so I stay away from it. I am not really sure why as I cant afford the tests to figure it out. What I have gathered is that it pushes my metabolism too much, and my body reacts with upping the estrogen and cortisol. Basically it raises all my hormones, and some of those cause boobies.

Maybe it raises DHEA which is then converted to estrogen. Progesterone can also induce gynecomastia.

 

[redred]

Are you man or woman?

 

[Demyze]

I love Pregn, makes me feel fantastic. Makes my muscles stronger, my mood better, my blood sugars lower...its awesome. However it causes gyno for me too, so I stay away from it. I am not really sure why as I cant afford the tests to figure it out. What I have gathered is that it pushes my metabolism too much, and my body reacts with upping the estrogen and cortisol. Basically it raises all my hormones, and some of those cause boobies.

Progesterone, which pregnenolone converts into (really hardly any DHEA), can cause PUFFY nipples. This is not GYNECOMASTIA which is caused by estrogen activity- In gynecomastia there is a literal development of the mammary gland and fatty tissue. This is different from puffy nips. Really it would be wise to get blood work before taking any steroid supplement though.

I doubt pregnenolone would cause gynecomastia, it barely raises DHEA. See what Haidut posted in this thread: The Myth Of Pregnenolone Steal

"As far as pregnenolone raising DHEA, the human studies show a very small effect of pregnenolone on DHEA levels. The human studies with 500mg oral pregnenolone daily found that pregnenolone raises mostly serum pregnenolone levels, followed by serum progesterone, allopregnanolone and finally DHEA-S. The increase in DHEA-S was not big, maybe about 40%, compared to the multi-fold increases in pregnenolone, progesterone and allopregnanolone. So, in addition to the enzyme saturation issue pregnenolone also seems to preferentially activate certain steroidogenic enzymes downstream, mostly on the path to progesterone. That is why pregnenolone is considered a strong "progestene" type of steroid in some endocrinological circles. At least those that have heard of pregnenolone and have used it clinically."

I think it's likely that OP is just getting puffy nipples from high progesterone. But it's impossible to tell w/o blood work.

 

[Agent207]

Why that much 100mg pregnenolone /day? I think going that high even with the "super safe" pregnenolone, may be risky without knowing your levels. Otherwise I would do smaller under physiological doses to be in the safe side.

 

[jaguar43]

The amount of DHEA your taking wouldn't cause gynecomastia. Pregnenolone doesn't have the powerful effects of other hormones. Progesterone is anti-estrogen and anti-cortisol.

It is well known that glucocorticoids, alcoholism and other medication can cause gynecomastia. I don't know whether DHEA can cause it. I also don't know of any evidence that it can cause it.

My honest opinion is that the things you are taking are increasing body temperature. Which makes it it more noticeable. You probably already had it but never notice it because of your low core body temperature. If you had taken any medications or were over weight or obese before than its more likely it was developed before.

People on this forum are misinformed on things like Pregnenolone. They say it causes high estrogen, or gyno. I wonder what Ray Peat would have to say about those implications.

 

[docall18]

IME both Dhea and Preg can raise estrogen at even tiny doses. Dhea & Preg are normally symptoms of an underlying issue. Trying to outsmart the body's hormonal balancing system doesnt work, you need to fix the underlying issue.

Often this issue is a bad diet, stress and blood sugar issues, leading to hypothyroidism.

Following Peats diet will fix these issues and should restore your steroid hormones. So i would drop all supps. Eat liver, lots of coffee, gelatin and dairy. And most importantly for your steroid hormones plenty of sugars. This may mean initially having some sugar every hour (with a little protein) until you get your blood sugar under control and metabolism up.

 

[Suikerbuik]

IME both Dhea and Preg can raise estrogen at even tiny doses.

Probably true in my experience as well, as it leads to gyno in the long run. I found out that my testosterone was reasonably already (25nmol/L) without supps, with my SHBG being in the normal but lower end of the range. However prolactin and IGF1 were also elevated at that measurement and I was subject to quite a stressful period so who knows.

 

[Thoushant]

Thank you for the responses.
I don't have the puffy nipples, but they are constantly hard, and show through t-shirt+sweashirt... Not a good look considering already fat area. In the rare cases of them relaxing, the area around/under the nipples is a bit softer than my other body fat areas.

I'm pushing on losing weight, hopefully it would look less severe soon.

So far I've dropped every hormonal supplement.

 

[Thoushant]

How far does DHEA/pregn supplements stay and influence blood tests? my doctor suggested blood tests, but backed out because I've been supplementing during the last month.

Have you guys heard about hyperthyroid induced gynecomastia, For 4-5 days before I was taking one pill NDT supplements vs my usual 1/7 parts 2-3 times a day.
And progesterone induced gynecomastia??? My hair colour is changing to brown from dark brown/ black, and I'm not that horny, but do have morning woods. maybe the abrubt DHEA stopping caused it? reduced my artifical high androgens?
Right now I'm on 2300 UI vit E spread on 2 doses, 1200 mcg b12, 20mg zinc, 50 mg p5p, 500mg Mgglycinate, 1tsp eggshell powder in hopes of maybe reducing prolactin

 

[Area-1255]

Area-1255: The Answer to Your Question/s. : Why Testosterone Treatment Isn't Helping My Libido / Erections?
Area-1255: Disruption & Dysregulation Explained (What does Disruption Mean in Psychopharmacological Lingo and What Is Dysregulation in Hormone Systems)
Area-1255: Symptoms of High Prolactin in Men (Symptoms of Elevated Prolactin Levels in Men)

 

[redlight]

I would get surgery