Prostrate Problems From DHEA/pregnenolone?

[Dean]

I've been experimenting with Progest-e, DHEA, and pregnenolone lately and have had some prostrate pain and a feeling of enlargement (like it's blown up like a balloon), especially in the last few days, since I've been taking DHEA and pregnenolone without progest-e. Taking some zinc seems to help, but am concerned this could mean the dhea or preg. is converting to estrogen. It seems the opinion here is that DHEA is more likely to turn to estrogen, but the issue seems to correspond more with an increase in pregnenolone dose and not taking progest-e at the same time.

Any theories/recommendations? And no, I'm not going to the doctor.

 

[Ella]

Dean, I had my husband take pregnenolone during a very stressful time at his work. His stress hormones were high. He managed to get through with pregnenolone, lots of sugar, coffee and aspirin. He was not able to eat proper meals as his work situation was crazy. He was eventually pushed out of his position and had to lodge a bullying compliant against one of the biggest International corporations. He also experienced increase size in his prostrate along with increase size in one of his kidneys. He was taking 2 - 3, 100mg capsules. I asked him to stop taking them and the prostate and his psa came down. It is interesting because the only other time he experienced an enlargement in the prostate was many years ago when he was taking fish oils and also flaxseed oil. I have learnt that it is important to know how well your liver is able to excrete hormones via glucoronidation. Under stress, and poor diet - low protein, phase 2 liver enzymes are not able to keep up with metabolites coming from phase 1. If you are down loads of coffee and you have efficient phase 1 enzymes, you will increase the amount of metabolites. Phase 2 enzymes being sluggish and overwhelmed will have to deal with more endogenous and exogenous hormones. I suggest doing a functional liver detoxification profile to see what is happening with the liver before supplementing with any type of hormone. I learnt this the hard way and will won't forget it. Grated carrots/bamboo shoots, keeping bowels moving and yes stress reduction no doubt has the biggest impact. But many times stress reduction is difficult when life serves you those balls from left field. He was also taking aspirin, but I am not sure how it works as aspirin needs to be handled by phase 1 enzymes, but I have seen good results with it. I am not sure whether aspirin in high doses improved glucoronidation or that it was due to optimisation of everything; diet, protein, milk, gelatine, liver, oysters etc. etc. The only thing I left out was Vitamin K2 but I figured there should be plenty coming from liver, eggs and cheese. Under stress digestion is impaired. Due to aspirin's ability to breakdown muscle tissue (brown urine), I am thinking of adding K2 and titrating aspirin to get the appropriate therapeutic dose. As think it would be prudent to stop all hormones and do lots of carrots/bamboo, cascara and support liver and see if swelling comes down.

 

[Dean]

Interesting, Ella. Thanks for the feedback.

I've dropped the DHEA and pregnenolone the last few days and went back to the progest-e. The "my prostrate is an inflating balloon" effect has gone away and haven't had any pain either. Will stick with this for a bit and see how it goes.

 

[charlie]

[ref]Dean[/ref], what were the doses you were taking of each?

 

[Dean]

post 105898 [ref]Dean[/ref], what were the doses you were taking of each?

Hey, Charlie. I've been all over the map on dosages with my experimenting. The prostrate issues though cropped up after a few days of an increased pregnenolone dose (from 30 mg up to 90-120) and not taking any progest-e. Before that, I had been pretty consistently taking 30 mg of preg with varying amounts of progest-e. I've been taking anywhere from 5-15 mgs of DHEA in divided doses, as well.

In the last few days, I've only been taking progest-e in small doses (3-5 drops, I guesstimate). I did though have some minor prostrate discomfort last night again, so maybe it isn't as simple as progesterone= good for me, pregnenolone and/or DHEA, bad.

Another observation I've made, unrelated to prostrate, is that I seem to get the body lift effect from progesterone that it seems most people get from pregnenolone. Things there, in fact, kind of "dropped" right away when I upped the pregnenolone and didn't take any progesterone in just those few days.

 

[Ella]

It's interesting that the swelling is reversed so quickly. I'd love to know the mechansim considering flaxseed oil caused the same effect.

We know Pufas increase estrogen activity, then what happened with pregnenolone? Haidut stated that pregnenolone reduces cortisol by 60%.

https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... ba22828c34

Such_Saturation reminded us that Peat said that 300 mg was enough for a week and due to it's long lasting effects help the body produce pregnenolone.

Ray states: In cell culture, DHEA can cause changes in glial cells resembling those seen in the aging brain. These observations suggest that DHEA should be used with caution. Supplements of pregnenolone and thyroid seem to be the safest way to optimize DHEA production.

What happens to excess pregnenolone? It can either get turn into progesterone and then either aldosterone or cortisol or it can go DHEA ->Androstenedione ->Estone or Androstenedione ->Testosterone ->DHT or Testosterone -> Estradiol.

Pregnenolone can only reduces cortisol if it is diverted to DHEA and then Testosterone, Estrone, Estradiol and DHT.

So the dose is important. Ray says that at age 30 we produce 30 - 50 mg a day, so more than this is going to be problematic.

 

[Dean]

Yes, I'd read what Peat said about 300 mg/wk being sufficient from pregnenolone supp. I've also read that he and others had taken much more at times. So, I thought I'd give it a shot.

It is surprising how quickly things change(d) when I adjust the dose.

 

[charlie]

post 105936 Hey, Charlie. I've been all over the map on dosages with my experimenting. The prostrate issues though cropped up after a few days of an increased pregnenolone dose (from 30 mg up to 90-120) and not taking any progest-e. Before that, I had been pretty consistently taking 30 mg of preg with varying amounts of progest-e. I've been taking anywhere from 5-15 mgs of DHEA in divided doses, as well.

1mg to 2mg at a time of each seems optimal to me with DMSO to drive it into the body.

 

[Dean]

Yeah, Charlie; I hear you. I was eventually going to get to Haidut's hormone supp options, but I was trying to determine which route to go. I'm also a little concerned about the DMSO having effects on the other stuff I'm taking, especially given how hyper-sensitive I seem to be to reactions/side effects to just about every thing.

 

[charlie]

This article on DMSO is interesting:

http://www.sott.net/article/228453-DMSO ... e-Solution

I am hoping the DMSO will enhance the antibiotic I am on.

 

[haidut]

It's interesting that the swelling is reversed so quickly. I'd love to know the mechansim considering flaxseed oil caused the same effect.

We know Pufas increase estrogen activity, then what happened with pregnenolone? Haidut stated that pregnenolone reduces cortisol by 60%.

https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/view ... ba22828c34

Such_Saturation reminded us that Peat said that 300 mg was enough for a week and due to it's long lasting effects help the body produce pregnenolone.

Ray states: In cell culture, DHEA can cause changes in glial cells resembling those seen in the aging brain. These observations suggest that DHEA should be used with caution. Supplements of pregnenolone and thyroid seem to be the safest way to optimize DHEA production.

What happens to excess pregnenolone? It can either get turn into progesterone and then either aldosterone or cortisol or it can go DHEA ->Androstenedione ->Estone or Androstenedione ->Testosterone ->DHT or Testosterone -> Estradiol.

Pregnenolone can only reduces cortisol if it is diverted to DHEA and then Testosterone, Estrone, Estradiol and DHT.

So the dose is important. Ray says that at age 30 we produce 30 - 50 mg a day, so more than this is going to be problematic.

Hi Ella,

I don't believe that is correct - i.e. pregnenolone only reducing cortisol if it goes the DHEA pathway. Pregnenolone is a glucocorticoid antagonist itself:
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/pro ... &region=US
"...Pregnenolone-16α-carbonitrile (PCN) is a glucocorticoid receptor antagonist and a PXR (pregnane X receptor) activator."

Also, its metabolite progesterone and allopregnanolone, being GABA agonists, both reduce cortisol as mentioned in my other thread someone else posted above. GABA agonists are used off-label for treating Cushing syndrome.
Excess pregnenolone and progesterone CAN convert into cortisol since they are on the pathway to it but it requires multiple steps. I have never seen any studies with pregnenolone increasing cortisol, and the recent studies with 500mg in humans showed no change in cortisol. There are some studies with synthetic progestins giving people Cushing syndrome temporarily, but these are not the same as progesterone and the human study posted above that said 60% cortisol reduction, used actual progesterone.
So far, nobody on the forum has had blood test showing increased cortisol from progesterone or pregnenolone. If local tissue conversion to cortisol does happen then it's probably short term and beneficial. If someone has Cushing syndrome then it's a different story but these cases are very rare.

 

[Dean]

post 105941 This article on DMSO is interesting:

http://www.sott.net/article/228453-DMSO ... e-Solution

I am hoping the DMSO will enhance the antibiotic I am on.

Yeah, that's an interesting article. So, I take it you use both Pansterone and Progestene in small doses?

 

[charlie]

post 105958 Yeah, that's an interesting article. So, I take it you use both Pansterone and Progestene in small doses?

I started with Pansterone a drop a day, then very slowly went up because I did not want to push the dose at all to stay away from any conversion issues, even though they should be extremely low with this product if used wisely. It can definitely push my metabolism up too hard, sleep starts getting effected, skipping days is also warranted for me.

Then I got Stressnon, and am only adding one drop which should be slightly below 1mg of Pregnenolone along with the drop of Pansterone. Again I am in no hurry at all to raise this.

 

[Dean]

so you haven't tried progesterone? why the add. of stress non? you wanted more preg, but didn't want to increase dhea, I take it?

 

[charlie]

post 105965 so you haven't tried progesterone? why the add. of stress non? you wanted more preg, but didn't want to increase dhea, I take it?

I have not tried Progestene but I will in the future. Decided to work the DHEA/Pregnenolone route for a while before attempting any kind of progesterone supplement again.

Knowing what I know about DHEA yes I want to keep the dose very low and am not interested in raising it much at all. It does not take much.

 

[Ella]

Haidut, thanking you for the pathway clarification. I am just trying to figure out what happenend. My husband's cortisol was really high. No doubt the pregnenolone was beneficial, but he was suffering from memory loss, that implies cortisol influence. His memory returned after the ordeal ended. I didn't have any of his other hormones tested. I wish I had. He also had leading up to the ordeal quite a good head of hair - full and very little grey for someone over sixty. During the ordeal he went considerably grey and now has a shiny dome at the back of his head. He also lost quite a bit of strength and muscle mass. Adrenaline and cortisol tearing his body down. This is suggestive that testosterone was converting to estrogen which would explain the swelling in the prostrate but as to what role pregnenolone and which pathway it followed, eludes me. His testosterone levels have alway been good but I did not test for SHBG. He may have had lots of free testosterone and while under stress due to poor glucoronidation may have accumulated excess, converting it to estrogen, again due to poor clearance rates, resulting in an increase in the prostate.

If 500mg in that study showed no change in cortisol, then pregnenolone must be converting and distributing between which ever hormone is required at the time, either progesterone, DHEA, or testosterone. I think I will test on myself. I do really well on pregnenolone and is the only thing that works for me. I know what my brain feels like under a high cortisol mileau and taking pregnenolone does not feel the same. I feel more assertive and more aggressive, so perhaps increasing DHEA and testosterone. Progesterone makes me feel like a contended cow. So it is of interest to see which pathway it takes. I am hesitant to take high doses and at times have taken 2 - 3 100mg/day, only because I don't tolerate any ***t from anyone. Yeah, people get pretty scared. I scare myself sometimes. I think the aggression is a sign of too much. Though I don't consistently take pregnenolone, only those times that I need to perform under stress and I don't want to drink more coffee or take more sugar as there is a limit to my tolerance. I might test him again and see which hormones are being influenced.

 

[haidut]

post 106078 Progesterone makes me feel like a contended cow

LOL, LOL

Anyways, the human studies with 500mg pregnenolone showed it converting into progesterone, allopregnanolone, pregnadione, pregnenolone sulfate and a little but of DHEA-S. However, these were all measured in blood and as such are probably not very reliable in terms of showing what's going on in the tissues. Here is one of the studies, with the results after 8 weeks of 500mg pregnenolone daily:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... /table/T6/

 

[Ella]

I will be doing salivary hormones which is "suppose" to represent what is happening in the cell. I get awesome results on higher doses but I would not take every day - just when needed. For example yesterday, I took one 300mg capsule and I drank perhaps more coffee than usual - 3 cups. It is a very stressful time for me and I know my cortisol is high and too scared to test because it will freak me out. Well, I had a very productive day. Man was I on fire. Even though I had to cope with disasters, I was immediately able to jump on them and bring about positive solutions. It was like I was on speed. I was able to move and act at incredible fast speed. Physically, I felt stronger. I know I am simply not able to function at this fast pace normally. It was disconcerting for those watching me but I was not stressed. Concentration was sharp, brain function quick. People around me displayed "learned helplessness" which was completely lacking in me. I don't exercise and I am mainly sedentary, but my %muscle increased just from the faster movement. If cortisol was increased, then would expect less %muscle? Today, I do feel slight tension around the kidney area. So if any hormones were at play, it would have been the youth hormones. What I experienced is the endurance and robustness that is experienced in youth.

 

[Kessry]

I don't believe that is correct - i.e. pregnenolone only reducing cortisol if it goes the DHEA pathway. Pregnenolone is a glucocorticoid antagonist itself:
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/pro ... &region=US
"...Pregnenolone-16α-carbonitrile (PCN) is a glucocorticoid receptor antagonist and a PXR (pregnane X receptor) activator."

Also, its metabolite progesterone and allopregnanolone, being GABA agonists, both reduce cortisol as mentioned in my other thread someone else posted above. GABA agonists are used off-label for treating Cushing syndrome.
Excess pregnenolone and progesterone CAN convert into cortisol since they are on the pathway to it but it requires multiple steps. I have never seen any studies with pregnenolone increasing cortisol, and the recent studies with 500mg in humans showed no change in cortisol. There are some studies with synthetic progestins giving people Cushing syndrome temporarily, but these are not the same as progesterone and the human study posted above that said 60% cortisol reduction, used actual progesterone.
So far, nobody on the forum has had blood test showing increased cortisol from progesterone or pregnenolone. If local tissue conversion to cortisol does happen then it's probably short term and beneficial. If someone has Cushing syndrome then it's a different story but these cases are very rare.

Haidut,

Can you please elaborate on how someone with Cushing syndrome would be a different story? Would they be more likely to convert excess (or exogenous) pregnenolone into Cortisol?

Looking at this chart (http://www.gdx.net/images/webinar/Stero ... _Chart.pdf) it seems that there are quite a few pathways for this to happen, but how would Cushing syndrome be unique to this situation?

 

[haidut]

post 109282

I don't believe that is correct - i.e. pregnenolone only reducing cortisol if it goes the DHEA pathway. Pregnenolone is a glucocorticoid antagonist itself:
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/pro ... &region=US
"...Pregnenolone-16α-carbonitrile (PCN) is a glucocorticoid receptor antagonist and a PXR (pregnane X receptor) activator."

Also, its metabolite progesterone and allopregnanolone, being GABA agonists, both reduce cortisol as mentioned in my other thread someone else posted above. GABA agonists are used off-label for treating Cushing syndrome.
Excess pregnenolone and progesterone CAN convert into cortisol since they are on the pathway to it but it requires multiple steps. I have never seen any studies with pregnenolone increasing cortisol, and the recent studies with 500mg in humans showed no change in cortisol. There are some studies with synthetic progestins giving people Cushing syndrome temporarily, but these are not the same as progesterone and the human study posted above that said 60% cortisol reduction, used actual progesterone.
So far, nobody on the forum has had blood test showing increased cortisol from progesterone or pregnenolone. If local tissue conversion to cortisol does happen then it's probably short term and beneficial. If someone has Cushing syndrome then it's a different story but these cases are very rare.

Haidut,

Can you please elaborate on how someone with Cushing syndrome would be a different story? Would they be more likely to convert excess (or exogenous) pregnenolone into Cortisol?

Looking at this chart (http://www.gdx.net/images/webinar/Stero ... _Chart.pdf) it seems that there are quite a few pathways for this to happen, but how would Cushing syndrome be unique to this situation?

People with Cushing syndrome tend to overproduce cortisol from ANY source their cells can get access to, so supplementation with pregnenolone or progesterone can feed the cortisol production even more. It has not been proven definitively, but there are studies showing women getting temporary Cushing syndrome from excessive synthetic progestins. The synthetic progestins do NOT have the same activity as progesterone so take that with a huge grain of salt.
For a person with Cushing, DHEA is probably a much safer supplement considering DHEA antagonizes cortisol activity in every type of cell (but especially so in bone, muscle and brain) and also inhibits new cortisol syntehsis by inhibiting 11b-HSD1.