Reversing Gynecomastia

[Westside PUFAs]

Ray has said that the carcinogenic action of the super high rise in insulin from starch can raise estrogen

"When sugar (or starch) is turned into fat, the fats will be either saturated, or in the series derived from omega -9 monounsaturated fatty acids. When sugar isn't available in the diet, stored glycogen will provide some glucose (usually for a few hours, up to a day), but as that is depleted, protein will be metabolized to provide sugar. If protein is eaten without carbohydrate, it will stimulate insulin secretion, lowering blood sugar and activating the stress response, leading to the secretion of adrenalin, cortisol, growth hormone, prolactin, and other hormones. The adrenalin will mobilize glycogen from the liver, and (along with other hormones) will mobilize fatty acids, mainly from fat cells. Cortisol will activate the conversion of protein to amino acids, and then to fat and sugar, for use as energy. (If the diet doesn't contain enough protein to maintain the essential organs, especially the heart, lungs, and brain, they are supplied with protein from the skeletal muscles. Because of the amino acid composition of the muscle proteins, their destruction stimulates the formation of additional cortisol, to accelerate the movement of amino acids from the less important tissues to the essential ones.)" - RP

 

[tca300]

 

[tca300]

post 108148

Ray has said that the carcinogenic action of the super high rise in insulin from starch can raise estrogen

"When sugar (or starch) is turned into fat, the fats will be either saturated, or in the series derived from omega -9 monounsaturated fatty acids. When sugar isn't available in the diet, stored glycogen will provide some glucose (usually for a few hours, up to a day), but as that is depleted, protein will be metabolized to provide sugar. If protein is eaten without carbohydrate, it will stimulate insulin secretion, lowering blood sugar and activating the stress response, leading to the secretion of adrenalin, cortisol, growth hormone, prolactin, and other hormones. The adrenalin will mobilize glycogen from the liver, and (along with other hormones) will mobilize fatty acids, mainly from fat cells. Cortisol will activate the conversion of protein to amino acids, and then to fat and sugar, for use as energy. (If the diet doesn't contain enough protein to maintain the essential organs, especially the heart, lungs, and brain, they are supplied with protein from the skeletal muscles. Because of the amino acid composition of the muscle proteins, their destruction stimulates the formation of additional cortisol, to accelerate the movement of amino acids from the less important tissues to the essential ones.)" - RP

Sorry for ruining the forum with a million of the same posts, I keep messing up, its hard for me to do from my phone. I never said protein didn't raise insulin, nor did I say one should eat protein without sugar.. What's your point?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

My point is that protein and starch both raise insulin and that it is a normal physiological response to transport these molecules in the blood.

I question the amount of starch that Josh Rubin eats but if you want to use Josh Rubin as an anecdotal example of starch causing gyno then I can show you some examples of males eating very high starch and have super flat chests, such as Derek from Unconventional Living, look at his Instagram to see all the starch he eats, no gyno:

https://instagram.com/unconventionalliving/

 

[tca300]

Why are you cherry picking what I say? I ALSO have said A LOT about FAT! Have you not been reading? I never said that eating high starch WILL GIVE YOU GYNO! I simply am saying that it can contribute especially if you eat a lot of fat with it. It seems to me you have a love for starch and I have offended you. Don't take it personal, starch has no feelings.

Ray Peat quotes -
"Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat. Eating “complex carbohydrates,” rather than sugars, is a reasonable way to promote obesity. Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten."

"Starches increase the stress hormones, interfering with progesterone and thyroid.”

“Starch is less harmful when eaten with saturated fat, but it’s still more fattening than sugars.”

"Per calorie, sugar is less fattening than starch, partly because it stimulates less insulin, and, when it’s used with a good diet, because it increases the activity of thyroid hormone.”

If you want to post pictures of Vegans and be push their diet then perhaps this isn't the right forum for you. I bet if you asked that kid above in the pictures what his body temp and pulse were they would be way off from what is considered healthy.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 108155 If you want to post pictures of Vegans and be push their diet then perhaps this isn't the right forum for you.

Why are you being rude? By saying that, you're diverting the conversation elsewhere. I'm sticking on subject by providing an example of someone who eats high starch and does not have gyno since that was brought up in this thread.

post 108155 I bet if you asked that kid above in the pictures what his body temp and pulse were they would be way off from what is considered healthy.

But Josh Rubin is all about pulse and temp. but you said he has gyno so that's not a good argument either.

 

[tca300]

post 108163

post 108155 If you want to post pictures of Vegans and be push their diet then perhaps this isn't the right forum for you.

Why are you being rude? By saying that, you're diverting the conversation elsewhere. I'm sticking on subject by providing an example of someone who eats high starch and does not have gyno since that was brought up in this thread.

post 108155 I bet if you asked that kid above in the pictures what his body temp and pulse were they would be way off from what is considered healthy.

But Josh Rubin is all about pulse and temp. but you said he has gyno so that's not a good argument either.

Your right I'm wrong. My bad. Sorry for being rude diverting the conversation etc.

 

[DankMemes]

post 108136 Just to be clear, how long have you been off the Matt Stone eating and back onto a lower fat, high carb diet?

About 3 months ago I was having problems with too much liquid, I found Matt Stone and stuck with that for ~4 weeks. I lowered sugar and milk intake and really up starch and fat, I was probably getting 5k cals a day eating like this. That is where I attribute my weight gain but I never noticed anything odd with my chest or a hint of gynecomastia. At the end of these 4 weeks my thyroid supp came in the mail so I decided to go back to strict(ish) peating again and hopefully the t4/t3 will help me manage any problems with heavy liquid intake, which it did/does.

post 108147 He said he's been peating for a year.. Then 3 months ago went through a Matt Stone phase, THEN within the last 2 months started having boob issues... To not develope man boobs in the first 7 months, then change your diet and have a problem soon thereafter seems pretty obvious why he is now having problems. Eating starch and fatty cheese could easily cause man boobs imo. Ray has said that the carcinogenic action of the super high rise in insulin from starch can raise estrogen, and along with that eating a decent amount of fat which also raises estrogen, and serotonin, which can cause prolactin to rise.. It sucks but as soon as you start a stress response it seems to have a domino effect on the stress hormones. Oh ya and earlier you said you ate 4000 calories, but crono says 3000... Big difference.. Not trying to be rude, just observing, also JUST OBSERVING Josh Ruben who also eats starch and a lot of fat ALSO has man boobs.. Seems to be very contagious indeed. But luckily based on study "male mice who eat adequate protein, get adequate vitamins and minerals, have a healthy bowel transit time via raw carrot salads and or phyllium husk, eat a low fat, low starch, high sucrose diet, get more calcium than phosphorus, and adequate red light, seem to be immune to the moobs virus." :Extremelyawsome Terrance 2008.

After the short stint with Matt I was on thiroyd, I upped my dose of cypro and cut starch/fat again. I'm definitely losing fat all over but the gynecomastia only appeared after Matt's protocol. I get your logic that it was likely a delayed reaction from Mr stone's work, I'm definitely not blaming Peat, I'm just stating the timeline.

I was eating around 4k cals but in this last fortnight where I've been more concious of what I'm eating in an attempt to slim down and hopefully reduce boob fat, I cut the red bulls, quit snacking on dates constantly and swapped to skim from 1% milk. So now I'm closer to 3k. In general it's somewhere between 3-4k, I don't eat exactly the same thing everyday, sometimes I might get some mangoes on special, or I might have an extra tbsp of coconut oil, extra potato, more fish and milk one day etc. The crono pic represents the core of my diet, and the dates, red bull, fish, mango kind of rotate. Sorry I don't mean to be inconsistent, I made this late last night And don't worry about being rude, I know you're just trying to help.

post 108135 have you tried a zinc supplement and eating oysters?

I tried getting fresh oysters but they make me gag and they're like a dollar each. I can't find a canned brand that's not soaked in PUFA so I supplement 25mg whenever I eat liver to balance out the copper and iron. I'm a bit unsure about zinc, it's suppose to strongly oppose aromatase and prolactin but I'm worried the supplement could cause more problems for my weakened liver. Maybe we should get Haidut on a zinc/selenium supp


Okay so here are some pics for everyone. It might seem quite minor right now but it still makes me very self concious, and it's only getting worse. Hopefully I'll have some after pictures to post in a few weeks/months. Its more than just an excess fat problem, I was fatter during the matt stone thing and didn't have ***s like this.

http://imgur.com/a/bkdeO

 

[BingDing]

I cringe a little when I see these kinds of threads, good intentions all but vastly confusing. I wouldn't change anything based on these ideas.

I think you were right in the first place about it being hormonal, which is to say estrogen. Vit E is good, and the need to balance fat soluble vitamins is pretty well established. Aromatase inhibitors is the next thing that comes to mind.

But all in the context that you are young and doing pretty well. Think about living another 100 years and the core metabolic needs. I am on a glutathione kick, it seems like the cardinal antioxidant; no relation to gyno but ... Think about playing football with your grandkids when you're 70. It's different than getting laid on Saturday night, LOL.

 

[answersfound]

Stop jerking off.

 

[Tarmander]

post 108148

Ray has said that the carcinogenic action of the super high rise in insulin from starch can raise estrogen

"When sugar (or starch) is turned into fat, the fats will be either saturated, or in the series derived from omega -9 monounsaturated fatty acids. When sugar isn't available in the diet, stored glycogen will provide some glucose (usually for a few hours, up to a day), but as that is depleted, protein will be metabolized to provide sugar. If protein is eaten without carbohydrate, it will stimulate insulin secretion, lowering blood sugar and activating the stress response, leading to the secretion of adrenalin, cortisol, growth hormone, prolactin, and other hormones. The adrenalin will mobilize glycogen from the liver, and (along with other hormones) will mobilize fatty acids, mainly from fat cells. Cortisol will activate the conversion of protein to amino acids, and then to fat and sugar, for use as energy. (If the diet doesn't contain enough protein to maintain the essential organs, especially the heart, lungs, and brain, they are supplied with protein from the skeletal muscles. Because of the amino acid composition of the muscle proteins, their destruction stimulates the formation of additional cortisol, to accelerate the movement of amino acids from the less important tissues to the essential ones.)" - RP

Thank you for addressing this west side. When he said this, something didn't sound right but I couldn't put my finger on it. Your doing gods work son

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Thank you for addressing this west side. When he said this, something didn't sound right but I couldn't put my finger on it. Your doing gods work son

not sure if srs

 

[Nicholas]

post 108119

post 108113 Have you tried low/no fat dairy? For example dry curd cottage cheese.
I know this in not as per the Peat line of thinking, have you tried cutting dairy out altogether?

I've contemplated this because during my low carb paleo days when I ate zero dairy I didn't have gyno whatsoever (but correlation does not equal causation). There's a bit of talk floating around that the estrogen in dairy can lead to gynecomastia, but from what Peat says, the progesterone content would nullify the estrogen present.

It could be vegan dogma so I'm a bit skeptical, I've given peat the benefit of the doubt seeing as his recommendations have helped me so much already.

you're on the right track in doubting dairy being a culprit simply because of the potential estrogen content. issues with milk that would be more likely to cause gyno would be higher fat milks or being unable to digest a milk.

 

[Nicholas]

post 108147 Josh Ruben who also eats starch and a lot of fat ALSO has man boobs..

lol, what is your source? I have known Josh for a while now and talked with him extensively (as patient, not friend)....and while i can't speak for him, he actually eats a very low starch diet and also low fat. He's told me that he digests fruit better than roots and if he had any ideology on fats at all, i have gathered that he would be more quick to advocate for a lower fat diet than a high fat diet until the patient shows otherwise.

Also, a la Westside PUFA, show us proof that Josh Rubin currently has gynecomastia. I have seen photos of him recently and there is no perceivable gynecomastia. I also never noticed it in the past.

 

[Nicholas]

I hope that you will receive what i have to share as i have been in this for the past 3 years and share a very similar history to your own. I can perceive some beliefs that you may have that will not be helpful, so i just wanted to reach out and encourage you to perhaps perceive the situation differently. Forgive me if i am saying things you're already aware of.

Nobody could have ever told me that my gynecomastia was "not that bad" and thinking that it would make me feel better.....but along the way when i did share my struggle with a couple people (and it was worse than the photos you have shared) they literally had never noticed. The stress of the situation, we know, does not help the situation and yet there's no way to just banish it. I found myself even changing the way i walked (shoulders slightly collapsed) trying to hide it. At one point i began wearing an undershirt all the time. So with that said, i will not tell you how bad your gyno is, but i will tell you that it reminds me of the kind of gyno that adolescent boys get and eventually grow out of.

My gyno came on in very similar ways as your own, but it will not do any of us good to speculate the why (as valid as these speculations may be). I like to blanket over the origins part as simply being a lack of awareness and falling for diet crazes. This is the antithesis to Ray Peat's work. Ray Peat does not discriminate against individual diets and protocols and his work loses no meaning or credibility were he to speak at a Vegetarians Summit or a Paleo Retreat. His work applies to all because his work is in opening consciousness of the human body and the way it works. Sadly, (and understandably) his work has been funneled through certain grassroots healing circles for people who may not be students of the body, but students of healing and desperate for any snippet of information to add to their long history of failed healing approaches. Of course, the only way to truly heal is to understand the body.

At this point, you cannot prove what is causing your gynecomastia and weight gain. Gynecomastia can develop from hormone imbalances, but then what has caused the hormone imbalance? It has to come from another stressor....like, let's say endotoxin. Or a pituitary malfunction. Or sexual exhaustion. Or a fatty liver. Or diabetes. Or excess PUFA in the diet. Or emotional stress. The list goes on. Saying that gynecomastia is caused by estrogen is not really accurate. Because even if it was caused by estrogen dominance, taking Vitamin E or any other estrogen antagonist does not resolve the reason as to why one is estrogen dominant. Self-diagnosing and then taking the appropriate supplement is akin to those who have surgery to remove their gynecomastia or going into debt for hair transplants or getting cosmetic laser surgery for skin conditions. Wonderful to the people that never have to look back again, but it is not uncommon for all of these problems to return. Even going a step further back and self-diagnosing a fatty liver as the cause for estrogen dominance and then taking an appropriate liver supplement or trying every dietary means to help the liver is not really getting to the root problem. Supplements must only be therapeutic after the foundation has been laid. I don't believe you have laid the foundation yet, but you're in the right environment to do so. We have to exhaust every last resource before we finally accept that we have to go back to humble beginnings and roots.

So the goal now, i believe, is to work from your present state and not set any expectations as to what health you should be in or what types of macro ratios you should be able to handle or why i should be losing fat or whatever. There is no healing panacea, but there IS a panacea for being in a STATE of healing. A STATE of healing is a place where you do not look backwards or forwards, you are only in the present. You do not define what you should be or what you were....only what you are. A STATE of healing is a place where you move little by little, not in giant leaps. You are honest with yourself - whether this comes through personal observation or through revelation in taking notes and documenting something. In this state of healing you have to accept that you don't have all of the answers but that if you stay engaged in this state of healing that the answers will reveal themselves when it is time. In the STATE of healing, there is a certain humility that (in a manner of speaking) you have no control over your body....in reality, your cells do. It's about engaging in conversation with your cells on a daily moment by moment basis knowing that ***they have it written in their code to function**** but this functioning is unlocked in sometimes mysterious ways and mostly always through taking their lead. This is why a state of healing is actually a scientific/physiological place....it's not some new-age healing philosophy......your cells can only be addressed in the present......having the "arrogance" to move them forward too quickly doesn't always work, and when it doesn't...causes problems. When moving them forward too quickly seemingly solves a problem, how often does the problem return because we haven't engaged in the root problem? The cells do the healing and understand all the mysteries of your body. How incredible that we have these built-in doctors/project planners. Being in this state of healing is, as Ray Peat puts it: "the only valid protocol is to perceive, think, act."

Engaging with the cells in the state of healing involves the following perceiving, thinking in your *present* context:

- Am i eating enough in this meal?
- Am i eating enough meals per day?
- Am i eating my meals at the right times?
- Am i balancing protein/carbs/fat per meal correctly?
- Am i eating digestible proteins/carbs/fats?
- Am i balancing and getting sufficient nutrients through the day?

Other variables secondary to diet:

- Am i getting enough sunlight?
- Am i moving enough/doing the right kind of exercise?
- Are there stressors in my life that are impeding my progress?

Fine-tuning these variables is basically regulating your blood sugar. Regulating your blood sugar is the primary route in balancing all aspects of your body. Regulating your blood sugar is giving the cells what they need and removing all obstacles for them to do the work that only they can do. Their taste may evolve....and through perceiving, their taste ends up becoming *your* taste, craving, feelings. Regulating your blood sugar is, to put it in the words of Kasra, "becoming the cell."

Through this process of regulating all systems of the body, you find that you don't have to always know what's going on - but you do use personal markers to see if things are getting better (like general function, like stable pulse and temps, etc.). Curiosity of the internal unknowns is certainly fine, but in the state of healing, they are only backburner topics that add to your general awareness.

 

[halken]

Give up dairy.

Report back in 3 months.

 

[answersfound]

Fix your liver with caffeine and theanine. Report back in one month.

 

[Brian]

Are you getting any B vitamins? With that much white sugar you could probably benefit from some B1,B3,B7 at least temporarily to ensure it is oxidized over free fatty acids. You could probably use more magnesium too since fat free milk often has it removed. I would also add more vitamin A and maybe D in whatever way you tolerate best (liver or supplement).

Personally, I'm not a fan of cypro or thyroid. Cypro itself can cause water retention at the doses you are taking. And taking thyroid probably isn't addressing the root cause of why your thyroid hormones are low in your case since you are so young. It sounds too simple but I think regularly getting a full morning of sun beats both cypro and thyroid in most people for lowering cortisol and increasing steroid production to oppose estrogen, prolactin, and eventually increasing your endogenous thyroid hormone production.

I've also noticed most people with estrogen issues don't do so well on quarts of liquid milk. I'm not sure why that is or if it's even related. But maybe in a high estrogen state, large amounts of liquid food are estrogenic in some way or at least greatly contribute to water retention. Maybe try greek yogurt smoothies instead for dairy intake.

 

[answersfound]

post 108325 Are you getting any B vitamins? With that much white sugar you could probably benefit from some B1,B3,B7 at least temporarily to ensure it is oxidized over free fatty acids. You could probably use more magnesium too since fat free milk often has it removed. I would also add more vitamin A, through an ounce of liver per day if that works for you.

Personally, I'm not a fan of cypro or thyroid. Cypro itself can cause water retention at the doses you are taking. And taking thyroid probably isn't addressing the root cause of why your thyroid hormones are low in your case since you are so young. It sounds too simple but I think regularly getting a full morning of sun beats both cypro and thyroid in most people for lowering cortisol and increasing steroid production to oppose estrogen, prolactin, and eventually increasing your endogenous thyroid hormone production.

Let me guess...you're also a breatharian? Not everyone comes into this world with a good metabolism and it if it wasn't for thyroid, WHICH IS A FOOD, they would just die. So it's there mother who shot them in the foot and put them at a disadvantage or maybe society feeding them propaganda that destroys metabolism.

 

[Brian]

Let me guess...you're also a breatharian? Not everyone comes into this world with a good metabolism and it if it wasn't for thyroid, WHICH IS A FOOD, they would just die. So it's there mother who shot them in the foot and put them at a disadvantage or maybe society feeding them propaganda that destroys metabolism.

Nope, I'm a diurnal Peatarian mammal :-D . Just speaking from experience. A fully belly of pro-metabolic food plus being in a warm, very bright environment most of the day (aka being outside) out performs cypro for me. I'm not saying that's true for everybody. I do think it's worth being cautious about thyroid supplementation though. I would definitely try environmental and lifestyle changes that lower serotonin/cortisol first, especially if you are young and your low thyroid was brought on by something like a year of low carb/calorie.

I do take cypro every once in awhile if I've gone through a really big stress or haven't been able to get enough sun in a long time.