Gynecomastia - Getting Worse?

jaywills

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Apr 26, 2014
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189
Hi all,

I have searched the forums to little avail in finding an answer to my Estrogen Dominance and Gynecomastia. A little background, I am a 21 y.o hypothyroid male diagnosed with Hypogonadism in October - yet I have always had 'Gyno' ever since i hit puberty around the age of 12. I had a libido up until the age of 20.

Last year i embarked on a weight loss protocol in where I wanted to reveal my abs. (to cut a long story short i now see that i entered an extremely stressful year long period - high pufas, lots of raw goitregen veggies (raw broccoli, raw cabbage - which i am sure caused my Hypthyroidism) fasting, low carb, high protein, high caffeine with no sugar) - I did manage the feat - reducing to around 6% body fat from around 16%, (i got extremely lean; so lean that i looked like the walking dead - and i felt that way too!) However, since the start of the diet my libido has been no existent, my testosterone dropped to the level of an 80 year old man as i have been told etc). But i did curb my 'gyno', with that level of body fat it dissapeared.

I was placed on Testosterone therapy but quickly came off after 3 months - despite enjoying the increase in energy, i want to restore my natural testosterone (as i believe the minute i receive these injections i will more or less be on them for life) and beleive that my overtraining and low calorie diet was the reason for my reduced test. My libido did not change on the TRT but my Testerone skyrocketed to above the normal range.

Since I began the testosterone therapy, my gyno has returned in full vengeance. I have been peating for 5 months now but am putting on weight drastically around the midsection and on my chest. typical diet is: Lactose free skimmed milk (cant digest lactose very well), Grape juice (to replace oj - white tongue problems, cod, shellfish, gelatin, coconut oil, mature cheddar, prawns (shrimp), dates, some starch (potatoes), liver, eggs, carrot salad (daily). I only eat around 2500 calories per day in order to curb the fat gain after extensive dieting. Since Peating, i do believe my libido did come back (temporarily) but seemed to have disappeared again since the Progesterone which you will read below.

I do believe i am heavily overtrained, having weight trained 3-4 days per week heavy and very intense (like 30 sets plus per 1 hr session), HIIT sessions (sprints), and other daily activities for several years, during my extreme dieting and to this day. I have decided to drop all excercise as of last week to fully recover. I have severe insomnia and think this is related to the training.

I have also begun supplementing Progesterone - which has not helped to date (been using about two weeks - but a relatively low dose as i dont want to trash the little test i have). I also feel the Progesterone I am also on Pregnenelone around 100mg per day. Im on Levoythroxine 100mg per day also. I have also tried Aspirin, but this seems to give me stomach aches?)

If anyone could offer any help, it would be much appreciated. My confidence is shattered and i cant wear any shirt without it being noticeable :shock:
 
J

j.

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Too much testosterone supplements? The dose might be too high?
 

Suikerbuik

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Jan 25, 2014
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700
Since I began the testosterone therapy, my gyno has returned in full vengeance .... I have also begun supplementing Progesterone ..... I am also on Pregnenelone around 100mg per day.
Quit all hormone therapy only try continue thyroid. I'd focus on diet and lifestyle at this point in time.

Pregnenolone can cause estrogen issues - see that recent ongoing thread for more experiences. For what's worth it, I am a male too (about your age as well) and when I use >50 mg pregnenolone I can feel painfull breasts coming up within a few days.

I suspect this is due to stress issues and likely some nutrient deficiency. Compromised liver function plays a role too, and your white tongue and lactose issues suggest that your gut isn't in good shape (putting a strain on the liver). Proper thyroid levels are important for liver and gut function.
I have decided to drop all excercise as of last week to fully recover. I have severe insomnia and think this is related to the training.
A week is not so much, don't expect things to heal quickly. You're into this for years now. Quiting all exercise will be needed.
Im on Levoythroxine 100mg per day also.
If you are stressed it can be that you need both T3 and T4 as conversion (deiodenases) may be altered. You should check this out.
 
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jaywills

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Apr 26, 2014
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189
Thank you for your response Suikerbuik. I think you may be right in that i should drop all hormone therapy. I thought that Preg may raise my testosterone levels (which are seemingly low) so that is why i have been taken 100mg of Preg although if it raises stress hormones/estrogen i will drop preg as of today.

When you say Diet, roughly how many calories would you recommend, or grams of carbs and fats that should be a minimum. I beleive i am heavily metabocially damaged (put on weight on low calorie) but need to up my calories to revamp my metabolism. Do you think that eating more will prevent weight gain and simply eating at around 2500 calories is causing me to gain. i.e will eating more mean the weight gain stops?

I am certain i have a comprimised liver function and my gut is deffinately not in good shape. Would you think a supplement like the following would help: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Source-Naturals ... +glucarate. The idea behind this supplement is to help detox Estrogen from the body. I have read in another post this has worked for estrogen dominance symptoms. Personally i feel that it may be of benefit - when i used to eat significant amounts of broccoli, brussel sprouts (Calcum D Glucarate being abundant in both) my gyno was at its best - almost dissapeared?

I will aim to rest for around 2-3 months, but will see how this goes.

I do notice drinking Milk also has not helped. I am going to replace this with Cottage Cheese and Greek Yogurt for Calcium and see how i get on. Milk that is store bought, whether Organic or not has had some influence on my Gyno i am sure.
 
J

j.

Guest
I wouldn't drop pregnenolone, in all studies I've seen it doesn't cause hormonal imbalances. I think it's the least risky steroid. DHEA and T are more likely to create excess estrogen.

If you have access to orange juice or guavas, they inhibit the creation of estrogen. When I find good orange juice I can drink 3 liters a day, and it has a big effect.

Vitamin E also has anti-estrogenic effects. I applied it topically for one or two weeks and there was a noticeable difference, even after stopping (I stopped because I ran out of it).
 
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jaywills

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I do have access to Orange Juice, i have tried numerous store varities but always find the dreaded white tongue with whatever brand i drink (i also get this when i eat oranges by themselves). Due to work constraints store bought OJ is a must so simply creating my own is simply out of the equation. Should i still drink store bought OJ (it does seperate on standing), and is organic and the most expensive variety, or is the white tongue telling me something?

What Vitamin e cream would you reccommend from Amazon.co.uk. I was supplementing this: http://www.myprotein.com/sports-nutriti ... 30379.html but have run out.
 
J

j.

Guest
Regarding vitamin E, any product that has mixed tocopherols and doesn't give you bad reactions, preferably with few if any additives.

I can't see whether the "my protein" product has only alpha tocopherol or mixed tocopherols.
 

Suikerbuik

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Jan 25, 2014
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I started by taking 50mg frequently throughout the day as needed to feel good for a total of 300-500mg per day. I gradually needed less until I was down to 120mg per day taken in 3-4 divided doses. I did this for a good 5-6 months. Worked great at first, but then it converted into too much estrogen, causing my level to go sky high, and giving me bad estrogen dominant symptoms.

I have used Nutricology MLM preg and Liflow preg cream. They both increase my estrogen at any dose.

Using 50mg of MLM preg raised my E2 to 222 (44-156). Also, this was while using arimidex @ 1mg/day to try and reduce estrogen.

Dhea does the same to me.

My friend's breast gets sore with pregnenolone or niacinamide unless she supplements iodine (in the 10-15mg elemental range). However she tends to be low in estrogen without pregnenolone, so it seems like it could be overly sensitive estrogen receptors or something else.

Everone is different. I'd give it a try at least, don't compare yourself with studies. Everyone is different and although toxic effects are not found yet, long-term issues aren't researched well enough. Most likely an under production of pregnenolone is not the cause of your issues, you may feel better because of the immune modulating effects though.

Anyway bloodresults may enlighten you more. At least lower your dose then. I am fine on ~20 mg for adrenal fatigue, increased metabolism, etc. Physiogical range (how much the body produces itself) is about 30-50mg pregnenolone / 24h. Besides that if we take it oral high concentrations are found at places where it is not supposed to be (stomach, gut, liver,..). Be careful and listen to YOUR body.
 
J

j.

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Suikerbuik said:
Besides that if we take it oral high concentrations are found at places where it is not supposed to be (stomach, gut, liver,..). Be careful and listen to YOUR body.

If high doses of pregnenolone in the stomach, gut, liver, produced bad effects, don't you think bad effects would've been noticed in the studies? The fact they weren't I consider good evidence that high doses of pregnenolone in these places don't produce harm.
 

Suikerbuik

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Am I saying that bad or harmful effects occur? Phenotype just doesn't say everything. It is a fact that a higher than natural concentration occurs in these areas. Normally it's produced intracellular and gradually released into the bloodstream if not used by the cell itself. It is something to think about with common sense. It is a pre-steroid and every steroid has to be handled with care.

Pregnenolone does have an effect for sure. It does lead to interactions with other proteins and affects gene expression. If this is good or bad in the long run has to yet be seen.
 

SQu

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Jan 3, 2014
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Prolactin lowering? I used vitex for about 8 months and I think it works fine for men too. I no longer seem to need it since starting thyroid / increasing salt.
 

natedawggh

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I know this is posted long after but just had to weigh in... I have to disagree with the pregnenolone-estrogen advice as well, Ray Peat has never warned of this happening and in fact says that Pregeneolone is the least likely to cause harmful side effects, which includes conversion to estrogen. Your body uses Preg to make Testosterone (if you are male, which you are), DHEA and cortisol (good in this case because your adrenals don't have to make it, if they are exhausted).

Progesterone is excellent for men with gynecomastia. Progesterone counteracts estrogen, and as far as I understand it, doesn't reduce testosterone but does reduce dihydrotestosterone, which isnt a problem during this therapy because estrogen is reduced, and after healing has taken place your active T will return to normal. It does increase body temps, as well as imparting a calming sensation. I did have a side ffect of excessively high temps one time, with aches (101) but this was less like a flu/sick fever and more like my thyroid on overdrive. The temps dropped back to high 98/low 99 after a day and many of my symptoms improved the longer I was on it. I also never experienced effects of low T, and in fact developed a high and reliable libido and muscle gain while on progesterone as well, which was increased after adding Pregeneolone.
 

kiran

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natedawggh, what dose did you use, and did you use it orally or topically? how long did you use it?

What dose did you start with?

Details, please!
 
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jaywills

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Thank you natedawggh, but can you assist us further by posting the details outlined by Kiran?

Did you cure your gyno with progesterone?
 

natedawggh

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jaywills said:
Thank you natedawggh, but can you assist us further by posting the details outlined by Kiran?

Did you cure your gyno with progesterone?

Hi, I wanted to add more to this, after using Progesterone for a year... I had a great benefit from it and it cured me of some specific issues: eczema, insomnia, very uncomfortable ocular pressure, and while I do think Progesterone can be helpful for me in some cases, I have found that it is a much better strategy to alternatively increase testosterone and lower estrogen by using Zinc, Glycine, protein, sugar, vitamin E, niacinamide, and strictly avoiding alcohol. I have experienced a resurgence of Testosterone since doing this, more than before I used progesterone and I think the progesterone definitely restored health to much of my body, but attaining specifically masculine traits (ie. getting rid ofgyno) this it did not do and would probably not fully heal. I don't have gyno, but I definitely now have greater muscle tone after being on a Peat diet for more than a year. It is not as much as I had when I used progesterone (but had more on progesterone than I did previously). I do use pregnenolone every few days and find that it naturally increases my muscle bulk in the presence of protein, without working out (though I have now gotten into a gentle exercise program). Specifically the thing I think progesterone did not fix for me was a varicocele condition I've had since 2007. That was the only problem it did nothing for, but now that I am off progesterone and using a strategy at raising T, my varicocele has practically vanished.
 

DaveFoster

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I know this is posted long after but just had to weigh in... I have to disagree with the pregnenolone-estrogen advice as well, Ray Peat has never warned of this happening and in fact says that Pregeneolone is the least likely to cause harmful side effects, which includes conversion to estrogen. Your body uses Preg to make Testosterone (if you are male, which you are), DHEA and cortisol (good in this case because your adrenals don't have to make it, if they are exhausted).

Progesterone is excellent for men with gynecomastia. Progesterone counteracts estrogen, and as far as I understand it, doesn't reduce testosterone but does reduce dihydrotestosterone, which isnt a problem during this therapy because estrogen is reduced, and after healing has taken place your active T will return to normal. It does increase body temps, as well as imparting a calming sensation. I did have a side ffect of excessively high temps one time, with aches (101) but this was less like a flu/sick fever and more like my thyroid on overdrive. The temps dropped back to high 98/low 99 after a day and many of my symptoms improved the longer I was on it. I also never experienced effects of low T, and in fact developed a high and reliable libido and muscle gain while on progesterone as well, which was increased after adding Pregeneolone.
Very helpful, natedawggh.
 

Syncopated

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Trash the Levothyroxine, synthetic T4 only garbage. Try Cynomel.

The best vitamin E is made by Bronson Pharmaceuticals. Get the 400 IU natural source.
 

Syncopated

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Mixed vitamin E with the various beta, gamma etc. tocopherols isn't necessary. A good pure natural source alpha tocopherol vitamin E is all that's needed. Bronson is the purest available.
 

raypeatclips

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Mixed vitamin E with the various beta, gamma etc. tocopherols isn't necessary. A good pure natural source alpha tocopherol vitamin E is all that's needed. Bronson is the purest available.

This has been discussed elsewhere on the forum and it seems alpha tocopherol alone could be dangerous, and taking mixed E is a much safer approach. Do you have any new information to suggest otherwise?
 

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