Reversing Gynecomastia - Bloodwork Follow Up

[Nicholas]

post 111360 I think I'm onto the right path now, just eat lots of calories, carbs and protein from foods that don't cause a histamine response or bloating. Vitamins and minerals are definitely important, but whats the point of eating loads of fruit if I don't digest it properly?

this has the ring of truth. i've come to realize similar things lately with fruit and histamine. i've also started eating higher protein lately and found improvement - like even up to 180g/day. maybe the protein has been helping a faltering liver....anti-stress. i began developing rosacea symptoms, too, prior to these changes - which was concerning. overall, i'm saying that i agree with you to eat what you are craving.

 

[DrJ]

I think your on the right track with suspecting the liver issues. Not sure what thyroid supplement you're taking, but if it's pure T4, then you still must rely on your liver to convert it to active T3 which could be a big problem if your liver is overburdened with other things. Also, your vitamin A dose (70000IU) is not high at all; to me it seems low. If you are right and vit A is suppressing your thyroid supplementation, it still points to liver issue since liver converts T4->T3, and vit A is needed by liver (plus cholesterol) to create the other steroid hormones. Further, estrogen is removed from the body by the liver, and gynecomastia is a sign of high estrogen, so the liver is also indicated here.

You don't say what your PUFA consumption is like, but PUFA is incredibly bad for the liver, so try to make sure you got that under control.

If you are not on a vit K2 supplement, you should definitely look into it.

Also, I strongly recommend you listen to the Danny Roddy and Haidut podcast, Generative Energy #11: Nitric Oxide starting at about 21 minutes in where they talk a lot about Vit.A dosages.

 

[franko]

post 111360Anyway, mini rant over, I'll keep you lot posted, thank you for all the advice.

Good rant. I found it helpful.

I never consciously went low-carb / paleo, but in the past month I have been making a concerted effort to keep my protein and fat low and up my carbs, and I have realized that my diet was kind of low carb without even trying because it was high protein/fat.

I'm thinking I was very dependent on the satiating effect of high protein and fat — because now that I'm trying to lower my consumption of protein (aiming for 1g per kg body weight) and fat I find that I have to eat a lot of carbs, and eat them regularly to keep from dropping back into a cold hands/feet stress state.

I think I used to naturally eat about 100-150g of carbs when I was eating high protein/fat — that's not that low — but now that I'm eating more 90g protein and 50g fat, I'm having to eat around 300g of carbs. Come to think of it, the biggest difference from my "natural" diet is probably the amount of fat. I was probably eating 100g protein and 100g of fat. And the fat was so satiating that I never needed to eat more than 100g of carbs. It was most saturated fat from beef and cheese, but still.

Anyway, lately I have been regularly consuming concentrated coffee + milk + sugar (the only sugary drink that does not make me cold) and have been relying on mashed potatoes every day. I know sugar is better than starch, but sugar in the form of fruit and fruit juice never makes me feel full, and the water content — least, I think that's why — makes me cold. Even when I eat dried fruit, I still can't get full from that. Sugar only keeps the stress response at bay for short periods of time. If I want to go 4 hours without eating or feeling that stress response I have to either eat a high protein/fat or high starch meal.

Red light / incandescent light therapy seems to be quite helpful at preventing the stress state as well. Sipping sugared coffee-milk and sitting under incandescent / red light keeps stress response away for the hours between meals. I am lucky — I work from home, so I can do all kinds of wacky experiments like this. This crucial now in these cold, dark winter days.

So anyway, I think I was low-carbish without trying. Never did high exercise or endurance exercise — which I think you asked me earlier. Liver issues were mentioned by haidut when he looked at my bloodwork, and the thoughts you've shared make me think it could be a promising place to look for the source of my problems too.

I've had cough / cold symptoms lately, and I'm waiting to get over that to get bloodwork again. Hopefully will do that soon and we'll see if they reveal anything.

Anyway, just rambling / thinking-out-loud...

I can't drink juice and milk because I get freezing hands/feet and constipation

Same. But sugared milk with coffee is an exception to that rule for me. With coffee added, you get the benefits of coffee/caffeine and the bitterness of coffee helps balance out the sweetness of the sugar.

 

[cantstoppeating]

post 111446 ...
Anyway, lately I have been regularly consuming concentrated coffee + milk + sugar (the only sugary drink that does not make me cold) and have been relying on mashed potatoes every day. I know sugar is better than starch, but sugar in the form of fruit and fruit juice never makes me feel full, and the water content — least, I think that's why — makes me cold. Even when I eat dried fruit, I still can't get full from that. Sugar only keeps the stress response at bay for short periods of time. If I want to go 4 hours without eating or feeling that stress response I have to either eat a high protein/fat or high starch meal.
...

This is similar to my previous experience. Fruit juice + milk caused me all sorts of problems that were too laborious and difficult to fix, largely because there were too many variables to pinpoint and fix e.g. quality/type of milk, quality of fruit, processing, additives, gut issues etc. Along with the constant lack of satiety from liquid calories, I had to over-consume calories to feel full which just caused fat gain and exacerbated all sorts of problems.

It wasn't until I replaced all fruit juice and milk with potatoes that I accelerated my recovery. I'm now dropping all the fat I gained when I started Peating by consuming nothing but potatoes, gelatin, spinach, sucrose and small amounts of cheese. A better gateway to Peating is to use potatoes as one's carb source, small amounts of cheese or coconut oil and moderate amounts of low-tryptophan protein.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Vitamin a does not suppress thyroid function. It may suppressed TSH, which is a good thing

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23378454/

Kind a messed yeah I think is caused by excess estrogen, which could be environmental estrogenic molecules, or estradiol. Very high testosterone leads to very high estrogen in many men.

Seems like a good candidate for progesterone supplementation.

 

[Brian]

post 111458

post 111446 ...
Anyway, lately I have been regularly consuming concentrated coffee + milk + sugar (the only sugary drink that does not make me cold) and have been relying on mashed potatoes every day. I know sugar is better than starch, but sugar in the form of fruit and fruit juice never makes me feel full, and the water content — least, I think that's why — makes me cold. Even when I eat dried fruit, I still can't get full from that. Sugar only keeps the stress response at bay for short periods of time. If I want to go 4 hours without eating or feeling that stress response I have to either eat a high protein/fat or high starch meal.
...

This is similar to my previous experience. Fruit juice + milk caused me all sorts of problems that were too laborious and difficult to fix, largely because there were too many variables to pinpoint and fix e.g. quality/type of milk, quality of fruit, processing, additives, gut issues etc. Along with the constant lack of satiety from liquid calories, I had to over-consume calories to feel full which just caused fat gain and exacerbated all sorts of problems.

It wasn't until I replaced all fruit juice and milk with potatoes that I accelerated my recovery. I'm now dropping all the fat I gained when I started Peating by consuming nothing but potatoes, gelatin, spinach, sucrose and small amounts of cheese. A better gateway to Peating is to use potatoes as one's carb source, small amounts of cheese or coconut oil and moderate amounts of low-tryptophan protein.

This seems to be a pretty common report from forum members and it is my experience as well. Milk + sucrose/fruit juice just doesn't work well in practice for kick starting the metabolism in many situations. Once the metabolism is optimal again those foods can work just fine, but before that it fails to deliver no matter how good it looks on paper.

 

[DankMemes]

post 111372 I think your on the right track with suspecting the liver issues. Not sure what thyroid supplement you're taking, but if it's pure T4, then you still must rely on your liver to convert it to active T3 which could be a big problem if your liver is overburdened with other things. Also, your vitamin A dose (70000IU) is not high at all; to me it seems low. If you are right and vit A is suppressing your thyroid supplementation, it still points to liver issue since liver converts T4->T3, and vit A is needed by liver (plus cholesterol) to create the other steroid hormones. Further, estrogen is removed from the body by the liver, and gynecomastia is a sign of high estrogen, so the liver is also indicated here.

You don't say what your PUFA consumption is like, but PUFA is incredibly bad for the liver, so try to make sure you got that under control.

If you are not on a vit K2 supplement, you should definitely look into it.

Also, I strongly recommend you listen to the Danny Roddy and Haidut podcast, Generative Energy #11: Nitric Oxide starting at about 21 minutes in where they talk a lot about Vit.A dosages.

I was on Thiroyd from Thailand. Honestly, I was reckless and stupid when I took it, I didn't really feel anything at 1 grain so I jumped to 2 grains, that's when the gynecomastia started to happen. So maybe the thyroid boosted testosterone, SHBG, estradiol etc but my liver wasn't capable of bringing down the estrogens, which meant high estrogen and man boobs. I'm off thyroid now and my libido is back, there's been a few case studies where gynecomastia is symptom of hyperthyroidism and treatment leads to regression of gynecomastia.

My pufa is under 4g almost every day, if I eat something like ice cream(rarely) it might go above 4g, but the ratio compared to my sat fat is very low. I did have years of high fat though, lots of salmon on avocado mush drizzled with peanut oil

I've run out of thorne k2 but got some k2/d3 left. The k2 has jumped to like $90 on iherb so I'll have to hold off for now, I don't really like the idea of mega dosing supplements either, it might be necessary though.

I could try eating a bit more liver, it's starting to get warm in Australia and I'm trying to get more sunlight which uses up more Vit A ( I think Dr P said that?) Do you know what the upper limit to eating liver would be? I generally fry it up, stick it in a container in the freezer and take a few bites every other day, I treat it more like a supplement really.

post 111363 i've also started eating higher protein lately and found improvement - like even up to 180g/day. maybe the protein has been helping a faltering liver....anti-stress.

post 111446 I never consciously went low-carb / paleo, but in the past month I have been making a concerted effort to keep my protein and fat low and up my carbs, and I have realized that my diet was kind of low carb without even trying because it was high protein/fat.

This is something that's been rattling my brain. I crave a lot of protein, I think I could easily eat 200g+ a day but if I think back I've been eating 120g+ for a long time, when I was SAD I was probably getting 50g a day and I had no health problems, that's probably just a correlation more than anything, but if I have a weak liver then wouldn't excess protein cause ammonia overload damaging the liver?. I've started eating meat again too, I think the extra protein makes me warmer, some lamb shanks, potato with a coke sounds soooo good right now.

post 111446 I know sugar is better than starch, but sugar in the form of fruit and fruit juice never makes me feel full, and the water content — least, I think that's why — makes me cold. Even when I eat dried fruit, I still can't get full from that.

I think it's the excess water too, but drinking coke doesnt make me as cold as juice even at equal amounts. The only fruit I really tolerate and makes me feel good is very ripe bananas, they don't cause bloating or itchiness or anything, but maybe its because I need the starch? Dates, mangos, citrus all taste great but upset my stomach, it's also difficult to get adequate calories from them.

post 111458 It wasn't until I replaced all fruit juice and milk with potatoes that I accelerated my recovery. I'm now dropping all the fat I gained when I started Peating by consuming nothing but potatoes, gelatin, spinach, sucrose and small amounts of cheese. A better gateway to Peating is to use potatoes as one's carb source, small amounts of cheese or coconut oil and moderate amounts of low-tryptophan protein.

When I realised low carb paleo wasn't working for me I started eating loads of potatoes, just mashed with coconut oil with a side of lamb chops. I was eating close to 1kg of potato a day, I was definitely improving but my fears of sugar probably limited recovery. I could try eating lots of mash now but also include dairy and sugary drinks, I was still calorie restricting on my high potato diet too.

post 111465 Kind a messed yeah I think is caused by excess estrogen, which could be environmental estrogenic molecules, or estradiol. Very high testosterone leads to very high estrogen in many men.

Seems like a good candidate for progesterone supplementation.

I got Haidut's progestene supp, at first it really increased my libido but if I overdo it my libido disappears. I think ~10mg a day seems to be the sweet spot. So far there's not been any effect on the gynecomastia but I'll give it a few months before I make a call. Thanks

 

[Nicholas]

post 111501 I crave a lot of protein, I think I could easily eat 200g+ a day but if I think back I've been eating 120g+ for a long time, when I was SAD I was probably getting 50g a day and I had no health problems, that's probably just a correlation more than anything, but if I have a weak liver then wouldn't excess protein cause ammonia overload damaging the liver?

it's not always textbook. and your higher protein craving may only last for a week. sometimes we have to accept that we have no idea what's going on inside us. "excess" protein is person-specific. at least *try* it to see if you have ammonia issues. I am eating about 180g protein a day right now....for the past 3-4 days....i can already feel that protein desire tapering off. You also have to consider the *type* of protein. If you're eating a good variety of protein types it's generally less risky. you don't know that your liver is weak, do you?

 

[DankMemes]

post 111504 t's not always textbook. and your higher protein craving may only last for a week. sometimes we have to accept that we have no idea what's going on inside us. "excess" protein is person-specific. at least *try* it to see if you have ammonia issues. I am eating about 180g protein a day right now....for the past 3-4 days....i can already feel that protein desire tapering off. You also have to consider the *type* of protein. If you're eating a good variety of protein types it's generally less risky. you don't know that your liver is weak, do you

That's a fair point, I don't have any symptoms of excess protein so I might as well eat to craving and see what happens, maybe all my problems stem from protein deficiency and I'm an odd case who needs 200g? I don't know.

I just picked up some coca cola and meat, it will probably throw out my calcium:phosphorus ratio but that's probably not as important as getting enougn protein and sugar.

I've got some great lakes gelatin somewhere too, but I haven't been using it much because I was mostly eating dairy instead of meat, I'll throw that into the mix too.

Thanks

 

[Nicholas]

post 111511

post 111504 t's not always textbook. and your higher protein craving may only last for a week. sometimes we have to accept that we have no idea what's going on inside us. "excess" protein is person-specific. at least *try* it to see if you have ammonia issues. I am eating about 180g protein a day right now....for the past 3-4 days....i can already feel that protein desire tapering off. You also have to consider the *type* of protein. If you're eating a good variety of protein types it's generally less risky. you don't know that your liver is weak, do you

That's a fair point, I don't have any symptoms of excess protein so I might as well eat to craving and see what happens, maybe all my problems stem from protein deficiency and I'm an odd case who needs 200g? I don't know.

I just picked up some coca cola and meat, it will probably throw out my calcium:phosphorus ratio but that's probably not as important as getting enougn protein and sugar.

I've got some great lakes gelatin somewhere too, but I haven't been using it much because I was mostly eating dairy instead of meat, I'll throw that into the mix too.

Thanks

ok....just a thought...if you haven't done the gelatin for a while....maybe do your upped protein experiment without the gelatin in case the gelatin creates a histamine response and confuses the variables.

 

[DankMemes]

Another week update!

I realise I don't tolerate meat well. I remembered why I dropped it in the first place, it makes me majorly constipated and causes flushing/redness across the face and that was with lamb shanks (gelatinous). I tolerate seafood really well, maybe it's related to the cooking method, when I cook meat it generally reaches very high temp unlike steamed fish or cheese. Just speculating.

I'm not sure if the progesterone is making the gynecomastia worse or if it's coincidental. So many sources suggest that progesterone would help, but now I'm unsure.

Progesterone makes me really warm, it's relaxing and helps me sleep and it improves my libido, so I figure it's doing something good but the increase in gynecomastia is ruining my self esteem. I take 10-15mg a day transdermally.

I've read that the first few weeks need a much higher dose to combat estrogen dominance, but I'm worried that progesterone could worsen my temporary hyperthyroid state and increase prolactin? I'm not sure, but If I go too high with progesterone my libido diminishes.

 

[NathanK]

Whoa, my 2 cents is your labs and gyno say high estrogen all over it. Your testosterone is literally off the charts. Some would say it's good, but there's no question in my mind that you have a lot of aromatization going on. I'd only test just to show your doctor. This makes me wonder what your DHT is and if there may be some 5AR enzyme issue bottleneck backfilling testosterone and causing over aromatization. PUFA antagonizes 5AR. Do you have any low DHT symptoms? If this is the issue, i imagine it would be a major stress that could cause all of your other stress hormone numbers to be elevated.

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm not sure if the progesterone is making the gynecomastia worse or if it's coincidental. So many sources suggest that progesterone would help, but now I'm unsure.

I have acute gyno, and when estrogen irritates the tissue, progesterone destroys the pain immediately. It's definitely beneficial.

 

[NathanK]

Follow up to my other comment. Interesting articles.
This was particularly informative: http://area1255.blogspot.com/2013/06/ex ... f-dht.html
-DHT lowers/balances prolactin, serotonin, and estrogen as well as increases libido and GABA in the brain. DHT is often used to treat gyno (IMO, it's a little like the importance of progesterone is for women)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm
-This one reminded me that you should get a PSA to check your prostate since high estrogen is highly corrolated with inflamed prostates.

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/How_Increase_DHT.aspx
-the creatine study he mentions that shows increased DHT has been quoted everywhere, but isn't considered strong as the results have never been replicated.

http://dihydrotestosterone.info/page/3/
-Apparently DHT increases weiner size and lowers cholesterol.

If it is a 5AR issue then I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with the liver as mentioned in this study: http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... nts_in_man

 

[DankMemes]

post 112755 Follow up to my other comment. Interesting articles.
This was particularly informative: http://area1255.blogspot.com/2013/06/ex ... f-dht.html
-DHT lowers/balances prolactin, serotonin, and estrogen as well as increases libido and GABA in the brain. DHT is often used to treat gyno (IMO, it's a little like the importance of progesterone is for women)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm
-This one reminded me that you should get a PSA to check your prostate since high estrogen is highly corrolated with inflamed prostates.

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/How_Increase_DHT.aspx
-the creatine study he mentions that shows increased DHT has been quoted everywhere, but isn't considered strong as the results have never been replicated.

http://dihydrotestosterone.info/page/3/
-Apparently DHT increases weiner size and lowers cholesterol.

If it is a 5AR issue then I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with the liver as mentioned in this study: http://www.researchgate.net/publication ... nts_in_man

Ok so progesterone is supposed to inhibit testosterone to DHT right? so maybe I should drop it for now if I'm seeing negative effects.

I've read that the gynecomastia can temporarily get worse when starting progesterone because the estrogen receptors are getting antagonised or something.

 

[NathanK]

Ok so progesterone is supposed to inhibit testosterone to DHT right? so maybe I should drop it for now if I'm seeing negative effects.

I've read that the gynecomastia can temporarily get worse when starting progesterone because the estrogen receptors are getting antagonised or something.

Progesterone is a major inhibitor of 5AR, but I was only speculating on the low DHT. I wouldn't say anything with confidence without more labwork or symptoms. Do you have symptoms of low DHT is the question. Hair, voice, libido, etc. Knowing if you have any urination pain or issues would indicate if you have any prostate inflammation issues from high estrogen as well

I'm sure you could try progesterone and see if the lowered estrogen outweighs any benefits, but even that is just a guessing game. DHT I think would be more appropriate than progesterone since it would do much of what progesterone would do without the feminizing sides. How DHT is a scheduled III substance and progesterone is OTC blows my mind


Interesting comment I just ran across in Google. I got a cool new perspective on hormones in the body: http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/sh ... ne-Easters

Pregnenolone breaks down into all the major steroids, especially important neural steroids as well, but most importantly, it breaks down into progesterone and DHEA. Progesterone, as many know, is an anti DHT hormone. This is why girls are, well, girls. DHT is the most potent "Male" hormone. Girls have alot of progesterone, this is why they have low DHT and carry feminine characteristics.

I have a speculation that one of the reasons many females lose hair/get thinning hair is that when they go thru menopause, they lose progesterone.

Now remember, we can't get all progesterone crazy - thats why we don't take straight progesterone. Pregnenolone causes a slight, safe rise in progesterone, which keeps DHT in check.

This is how teenage boys have T levels in the 700 - 1000 range yet have DHT levels that are middle range or at the lower end of the top 1/3 - They have plenty of pregnenolone production.

As we age, we lose pregnenolone production, due to aging of testicles and adrenal glands. When one goes on HRT, HTPA is shut off and testes stop working, hence the pregnenolone production is shut off. Then we have a perfect recipe for skyrocketing DHT - something we DO NOT want. T goes high, converts into DHT, with no pregnenolone to shut if down, we see guys on TRT lose hair, get swollen prostates, and in some cases high DHT can cause anxiety and irritibility.

This is also why hcG is so important - we need the testicles alive and well to supplement pregnenolone production, in addition to what we add in as cream. Plus hcG is a source of LH receptor activity! So anyone who thinks that hcG is for cosmetic purposes is simply mis-informed!

As preg enters bloodstream via cream, it is converted to various hormones, one in particular is progesterone. Progesterone is well known to prevent T conversion to DHT.

So, what he's saying is that pregnenolone, besides just being a prehormone to all the hormones, is that it also converts to progesterone is to keep our DHT in check. And that's why it's highest in youth because that is when our testosterone is highest. IOW, pregnenolones conversion ratio to progesterone as we age is probably equal to our testosterone to DHT. DHT in my mind is probably the most critical protective steroid in males. I consider it the "master" protective hormone for males as it's been shown to be one of the most stable hormones as we age unlike the others.

Also interesting. Pregnenolone is produced largely in our gonads and adrenal glands. He's saying that it should be mandatory to take the LH analog HCG for anyone on HPA axis suppressive testosterone treatment because one of LH's purposes is to stimulate pregnenolone production in the adrenals and testicles (according to this study, it also stimulates cortisol and DHEA production as well: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16728548)

For your situation, since LH stimulates most of our testosterone production in the testicles, I am surprised that your LH is in good range at 4 while your T is out of range. Contrary to popular belief, just out of range T is just as bad as being just below range, IMO. This again makes me wonder if there is some sort of backlog of testosterone preventing further conversion.

 

[DankMemes]

post 112842
Progesterone is a major inhibitor of 5AR, but I was only speculating on the low DHT. I wouldn't say anything with confidence without more labwork or symptoms. Do you have symptoms of low DHT is the question. Hair, voice, libido, etc. Knowing if you have any urination pain or issues would indicate if you have any prostate inflammation issues from high estrogen as well

When I was taking NDT I lost my libido and the gynecomastia began, since stopping thyroid my libido is back, but I imagine it could be stronger for a 22 year old male. I've never been quite "manly", I still have body hair, a deep voice but only slightly. Ever since starting progesterone my libido is stronger and I think my facial hair is coming in faster (could be imagining things).

post 112842 I'm sure you could try progesterone and see if the lowered estrogen outweighs any benefits, but even that is just a guessing game. DHT I think would be more appropriate than progesterone since it would do much of what progesterone would do without the feminizing sides.

I'm definitely getting some mascualine benefits from progesterone, apart from the gynecomastia which is getting worse. Apparently a state of estrogen dominance will cause estrogen receptors to build up tolerance in a similar way to say insulin resistance, the first few weeks of progesterone will "awaken" these receptors making symptoms initially worse as the receptors are now re-sensitised to all the estrogen. After a few weeks once progesterone starts to lower estrogen the symptoms recede. Progesterone also makes my hands/feet nice and toasty and makes me feel relaxed.

post 112842 How DHT is a scheduled III substance and progesterone is OTC blows my mind

It's pretty silly, if I tried to order DHT or testosterone gels to Australia, I would probably get a knock on the door by federal police :?

post 112842 So, what he's saying is that pregnenolone, besides just being a prehormone to all the hormones, is that it also converts to progesterone is to keep our DHT in check. And that's why it's highest in youth because that is when our testosterone is highest. IOW, pregnenolones conversion ratio to progesterone as we age is probably equal to our testosterone to DHT. DHT in my mind is probably the most critical protective steroid in males. I consider it the "master" protective hormone for males as it's been shown to be one of the most stable hormones as we age unlike the others.

So pregnenolone may be more useful in my case? If I have high T, high Estrogen, low progesterone and low DHT, then pregnenolone could increase progesterone to the required amount without inhibiting DHT too much.

I find this all really confusing lol. I have Haidut's pregnenolone/DHEA mix and lots of progesterone but I'm a bit worried the preg will increase estrogen if I have high aromatisation going on.


Just this morning I went to give another blood test for prolactin and also a glucose tolerance test (my doc was worried about high trigs). I was fasted since dinner the night before and about 10 minutes after drinking the glucose solution (30g glucose syrup, 250ml water) my hands and feet felt really warm! It definitely woke up my libido too as if the sugar just turned my engines on or something. I've tried eating thousands of calories of potato, bananas, coconut oil etc and never felt this warm.

 

[NathanK]

It certainly sounds like major estrogen dominance. Estrogen in itself is a big 5AR inhibitor, which can cause gyno (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha ... _inhibitor). I think some people in the thyroid dominated Peat world are chasing the tail when sometimes it's the tail that's chasing them, which is why I chimed in here. The organism is full of checks and balances where any small dysregulation can take things out of whack downstream. Sometimes I think methylation is the king and then other times it's serotonin or maybe prolactin, and then DHT. They all just overlap and stronger in certain areas. Gotta check them all to know.

Pregnenolone with low dose DHEA sounds like a good alternative if progesterone doeant work out or if you want to try both at some point.

If you're confused, you're not alone lol. It's pretty complex for even the savviest of doctors I imagine. Ask anyone trying to get a handle on alopecia what they think of DHT and youll never get a straight answer. Check out this thread. Great discussion:

https://raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6866

 

[franko]

post 111501

post 111446 I never consciously went low-carb / paleo, but in the past month I have been making a concerted effort to keep my protein and fat low and up my carbs, and I have realized that my diet was kind of low carb without even trying because it was high protein/fat.

This is something that's been rattling my brain. I crave a lot of protein, I think I could easily eat 200g+ a day but if I think back I've been eating 120g+ for a long time, when I was SAD I was probably getting 50g a day and I had no health problems, that's probably just a correlation more than anything, but if I have a weak liver then wouldn't excess protein cause ammonia overload damaging the liver?. I've started eating meat again too, I think the extra protein makes me warmer, some lamb shanks, potato with a coke sounds soooo good right now.

Now that I've consciously tracked my protein intake this past month and aimed for about 90g / day I'm not sure if my protein was as high as I thought it was before. If anything, I was probably eating high fat (100g or more, 50% or more of my calorie intake). That would explain the satiating effect that I sought out previously, and that that I found myself having to compensate for with frequent carb intake now that I've been getting like 40-50g / day.

Also, I've posted new bloodwork results: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=8819&p=113366#p113366

 

[DankMemes]

post 113239 It certainly sounds like major estrogen dominance. Estrogen in itself is a big 5AR inhibitor, which can cause gyno (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha ... _inhibitor). I think some people in the thyroid dominated Peat world are chasing the tail when sometimes it's the tail that's chasing them, which is why I chimed in here. The organism is full of checks and balances where any small dysregulation can take things out of whack downstream. Sometimes I think methylation is the king and then other times it's serotonin or maybe prolactin, and then DHT. They all just overlap and stronger in certain areas. Gotta check them all to know.

Pregnenolone with low dose DHEA sounds like a good alternative if progesterone doeant work out or if you want to try both at some point.

If you're confused, you're not alone lol. It's pretty complex for even the savviest of doctors I imagine. Ask anyone trying to get a handle on alopecia what they think of DHT and youll never get a straight answer. Check out this thread. Great discussion:

https://raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6866

I was doing really well before I took thyroid, so maybe I should cut the progesterone and see if I normalise.

One thing thats bugging me is that if I have a weakened liver (my enzymes are a bit high) then maybe I can't overcome "estrogen dominance". If I keep pouring progesterone on top, but my liver isn't binding/deactivating the estrogen maybe I'm just making my problem worse.

I'm back at the doctors for a follow up prolactin test, hopefully it's a bit lower, I do feel better since getting my first one.

Thanks for the help mate