Gut Repair After Lots Of Antiobiotics

[Constatine]

Very good points and why I was trying colostrum and RPPPS, and not downing bottles of probiotics. I've been consistantly taking NAC and coconut oil/MCT but I've noticed lots of mucous... so not sure but seems like yeast is growing not dying. I also just got in some MB, which I'm reading reading reading up on!

I'm going to have to try BCAA I think, potato soup is not working for me, perhaps I am too sensitive to starch remenants? Might try fruit jellies and L-Glutamine.

Be careful with l glutamine. If you have a leaky blood brain barrier, which is more common than not when someone has poor intestinal health, you can get glutamate excitotoxicity symptoms. I have yet to try the BCAA route, let me know if it goes well.

 

[Constatine]

What seems the most compelling is vitamin K

Do you have any papers showing vitamin K benefits the gut? It seems hard to find.

 

[DuggaDugga]

Do you have any papers showing vitamin K benefits the gut? It seems hard to find.

No, I meant that the only benefit I could see of having gut bacteria would the production of menaquinone, but I'm not sure that you even absorb it from bacteria in the colon.

 

[Waynish]

I agree that aiming for sterility is an an issue, but I tend to agree that so much of the problems these days stem from an overgrowth in the small intestine because we all have crappy stomach acid production and are being encouraged to eat the wrong fiber. Endotoxin problems may stem less from the actual existence of bacteria producing it, and more from damaged intestinal walls from lack of nutrition and stressors/EMF allowing leakages into the blood stream rather than elimination.

I am wary however of taking loads of pills full of bacteria... especially since what will help one person will not necessarily be good for another. And that the obsession with lactic acid producing bacteria is turning out to be another problem - finding probiotics with butyric acid producers and without lactic acid producers is another problem.

I have only had my colostrum for two days but already the inflammatory symptoms and pain in my guts has significantly reduced. :)

Which colostrum product did you use? Some people talk down to the powdered stuff, but I think Bravo is likely not worth its high price tag - though I don't have evidence to support that.

 

[Waynish]

What do you all think of coffee and gut repair? It seems that it might aid in gut repair provided you drink it with meals to avoid gastric secretion with nothing in your stomach.

Generally more negative than I think people here understand. Maybe for some cases, but for the majority it seems like digestion runs smoother during repair without the extra irritation. Many with gut problems do better with pure caffeine than coffee, which should tell us something.

 

[Waynish]

@Kray ... so that from puberty to menopause roughly, there is the risk of having an autoimmune or immunological interaction between intestinal bacteria and body tissues. And there hasn't been much follow-up on that but that is the period when autoimmune type problems show up in women and estrogen is probably the main factor that is involved in that but it just happens that there is this endogen parallel between the bacteria and the person. And the bacteria do have a direct anti-inflammatory effect on the membranes of the intestine but one problem is that they do produce lactic acid. And so if you provide them with enough fuel, they can have produce lactic acid which is a potential toxin. It stimulates inflammation and formation of fiber collagen stimulation.

Ahha, so he does think autoimmunity is a real mechanism! I don't see any reason to throw out all generally accepted mechanisms of autoimmunity until they have a bit more defined alternative than "metabolism not good enough." For example, with thyroid autoimmunity, there could be causes in the gut via parasites - or whatever is causing the breakdown / over-stress of the thyroid tissue itself (often dubbed here as "poor metabolism"). Or autoimmunity in the gut via various food allergies.

 

[Waynish]

Does anyone have any research regarding which gut bacteria are "good" and which are "bad" and *why*? I see those labels thrown around constantly with virtually no reasonable supporting evidence. Personally I do the best on easily digested foods that keep my bacteria starved. I do eat potatoes occasionally, well-cooked, and digested slowly (chewed thoroughly, consumed with saturated fat). Any sort of bean, poorly cooked starch, etc. leads to bloating, mood dysregulation, and acne in my experience. I'm not ready to unilaterally say gut bacteria are undesirable, but pro-biotics as an ideology and marketed product haven't been adequately demonstrated to be beneficial in my limited research and experience. What seems the most compelling is vitamin K2, but how much of it is actually absorbed in the colon?

It seems like testing for the presence of overgrowths into the small intestine and stomach would be a more useful distinction. Tweaking digestion so bacteria can only accumulate in the large intestine seems to be the right process - but I have yet to see a generalizable process for everyone. There still seems to be many factors complicating gut repair for people - even on these forums :)

 

[DuggaDugga]

It seems like testing for the presence of overgrowths into the small intestine and stomach would be a more useful distinction. Tweaking digestion so bacteria can only accumulate in the large intestine seems to be the right process - but I have yet to see a generalizable process for everyone. There still seems to be many factors complicating gut repair for people - even on these forums :)

Makes sense. I guess I'm curious because I meet many people promoting gut bacteria, but I haven't been able to personally validate their claims in the literature or through personal experience. I could be missing something though.

 

[Peater Piper]

What seems the most compelling is vitamin K2, but how much of it is actually absorbed in the colon?

Folate is the only vitamin I've seen compelling evidence for being absorbed. However, it may require synthesis in the upper intestine.

There's quite a bit of evidence certain that gut flora can modulate the host in positive and negative ways. How to manipulate the flora in our favor is a huge question at this point. Both probiotics and antibiotics are just blunt tools with unknown effects until they're tried, and diet can only go so far.

 

[walker_in_aus]

Which colostrum product did you use? Some people talk down to the powdered stuff, but I think Bravo is likely not worth its high price tag - though I don't have evidence to support that.

I am using Nourishing Organics, cool spray dried powder. I definitely notice a difference after a day of it, less bloating, however after two weeks I'm not seeing much more improvement than that. I have been under stress however so I have remembered you can supplement whatever you want but you can't beat stress.

I have used SurThrival in the past and it gave me insane energy after a few weeks. More expensive though.

 

[DuggaDugga]

Folate is the only vitamin I've seen compelling evidence for being absorbed. However, it may require synthesis in the upper intestine.

There's quite a bit of evidence certain that gut flora can modulate the host in positive and negative ways. How to manipulate the flora in our favor is a huge question at this point. Both probiotics and antibiotics are just blunt tools with unknown effects until they're tried, and diet can only go so far.

That’s where my mind is at on the topic, though I’m happy to be proven wrong. All classification of gut bacteria strike me as vague at best. All interventions strike me as similarly non-specific. I’ve had consistent elevation of mood with the raw carrot and avoidance of foods that feed bacteria, so I’ll probably stay that course. I’d like to know more on the topic eventually though

 

[HDD]

@HDD- just thinking about you, wonder how you’re doing? Update on Floraphage use?

@Kray Thanks for asking, I'm fine now. I think I took the Floraphage less than a week. All uti and yeast symptoms are gone. I did throw everything I had at the infection, so it's hard to conclude what worked. I would take the phages again if I thought I had an infection. I remembered my husband took them for a tooth infection. It seemed to work for it. My son had a stomach bug ( vomiting and diarrhea for a week). He was visiting for Thanksgiving and after one dose, his diarrhea stopped. He still took it for a few more days. We're not sure if it was just a coincidence. How is your husband doing?

 

[Kray]

Hi @HDD,

So good to hear you’re over it. And thanks for your asking. My husband is doing just fine, no further incident. He is still taking 1/day of the Floraphage as insurance. He was to f/u with doctor, maybe have a male exam, which he hasn’t done in a while, but he’s had trouble getting an appt. with him, so he may continue on as maintenance until he is seen.

I agree, it’s hard to tell, but from your testimonies and mine, I think it’s a good investment. I will keep some on hand as well. I hope this is a product we’ll be hearing more about in future.

 

[managing]

I've been using Andrew Arthur floraphage for about a week now. Pretty disruptive to the intestines, but not nearly as much as other things like FOS for example. At first sorta trended toward constipation (but not actually so far as to be constipated if you know what I mean). And a moderate amount of cramping and bloating. Then I read the instruction to take with water. I take that to mean, not with food. And I had been taking it with food. When I switched to water/empty stomach, things loosened up, figuratively speaking. Not diarrhea by any means though.

The cramping is slowly subsiding. Still disrupted consistency though. Funny thing is, my libido has been very high and voice very low for the last few days. Don't know what to make of it, but it seems to be very associated with this.

Definitely seems as if something good is happening. Will continue.

 

[Kray]

I've been using Andrew Arthur floraphage for about a week now. Pretty disruptive to the intestines, but not nearly as much as other things like FOS for example. At first sorta trended toward constipation (but not actually so far as to be constipated if you know what I mean). And a moderate amount of cramping and bloating. Then I read the instruction to take with water. I take that to mean, not with food. And I had been taking it with food. When I switched to water/empty stomach, things loosened up, figuratively speaking. Not diarrhea by any means though.

The cramping is slowly subsiding. Still disrupted consistency though. Funny thing is, my libido has been very high and voice very low for the last few days. Don't know what to make of it, but it seems to be very associated with this.

Definitely seems as if something good is happening. Will continue.

Thanks for sharing your experience using this.

 

[managing]

Thanks for sharing your experience using this.

I was distracted and forgot to add, that I have had calf soreness and some slight calf cramps from this. I assume its affecting mineral adsorption. Again, I think its subsiding now and was temporary. Less than a week.

 

[managing]

Nine more days. Calf cramps went away after a few days. Missed a day taking these and had a bout of mild diarrhea. May have been something I ate, although nobody else was effected. Since then I've seen some "low bile" color. Please don't make me spell it out. Always occurred when I took other things like diatomaceous earth and FOS too.

In the last weed I've seen a sharp decline in skin symptoms. ie, I had often gotten itchy bumps and sometimes red patches on my torso, neck, and scalp. These have nearly but not quite disappeared in the last week or so.

I've also seen a reduction in liver glycogen storage. Not sure what to make of this. Some moderate cortisol response to this. Hoping it goes away in time like the calf cramps di.

Bowel motility still doesn't seem normal. Its been what, three weeks?

All in all, I'd call the experience mildly unpleasant. However, I assume that means that I really had a bad overgrowth of bad bacteria and really need to go through this. Whenever I've tried other things (DE, FOS, Caprylic Acid for example) or even just consumed raw garlic in food, I've had 10x worse experience. This is tolerable. And presumably necessary.

The positives have mostly been a presumed suppression of serotonin, along with the assumption that I am ridding myself of a fair amount of "bad" bacteria such as e. coli.

Now, the big question is, how long to take this, and how to promote "healthy" bacteria? This is where this thread started.

Research says two things distinguish "obese" and "healthy" microbiomes. Healthy microbiomes have a higher ratio of Bacteroidetes (gram -) to Firmicutes (gram+) phyla (EDIT: other way around, I wrote that wrong but don't want to change it in case somebody has already read it). Healthy also have a more diverse microbiome in general.

Its also possible that the assumptions about which populations in these studies are "healthy" are complete garbage.

But assuming for a moment that higher ratio of Firmicutes AND more diverse is desirable, how to get there? A quick glance at the genera in Firmicutes suggests that most "probiotic" supplements represent a very, very narrow selection. Further, considerable scientific evidence says that supplementing is useless.

Could it be that suppressing some genera with Floraphage would make it easier for these to get a foothold?

Still, supplementing with a narrow range of Firmicutes is not going to encourage "diversity". It could even be argued that aggressive Floraphage routine also discourages diversity.

In short, where to go from here?

 

[managing]

stopped it because of the low blood sugar symptoms. Now I am not sure they were the cause.

About a week later, I got some die off of something (mucous ). I am hoping it was the floraphage dying off because it ran out of nasty things to eat? Will try again in a week or two. If that IS the case, then I should have little to no response to supplementing this time.

 

[EIRE24]

stopped it because of the low blood sugar symptoms. Now I am not sure they were the cause.

About a week later, I got some die off of something (mucous ). I am hoping it was the floraphage dying off because it ran out of nasty things to eat? Will try again in a week or two. If that IS the case, then I should have little to no response to supplementing this time.

What Do you think mucous in the stool shows or means?

 

[managing]

What Do you think mucous in the stool shows or means?

Well, it always means something dying (I think?). I presume it to be the bacteriophages. I mean, if it means they died of starvation because they'd already eaten all of the (targeted) bacteria, that should be a good thing.