Gut Repair After Lots Of Antiobiotics

[Kartoffel]

Yes, so now please answer the question your

No inflammation does not slow down !. Think of IBDs. The colon is inflammed and cant take up water-> faster excretion.

If the muscle contractions slows down, there is just more time to take up water.

And no constopation is not a attempt of the body. The reason for constipation can be different.
But just think of Magnesium as a laxative. Calcium is hydrophobic, while magnesium is hydrophilic.
This means that calcium tends to dry out, and magnesium tends to attract water to itself and will attract water into the intestines, causing diarrhea in some cases.

Constipation is a central symptom of what physicians refer to as IBD.

No inflammation does not slow down !. Think of IBDs. The colon is inflammed and cant take up water-> faster excretion.

Do you like food (or anything) in a inflammed wound of yours short or long time?

If the muscle contractions slows down, there is just more time to take up water.
As easy as fast bm -> more water
slow bm -> less water

Have you ever had diarrhea ?

And no constopation is not a attempt of the body. The reason for constipation can be different.
But just think of Magnesium as a laxative. Calcium is hydrophobic, while magnesium is hydrophilic.
This means that calcium tends to dry out, and magnesium tends to attract water to itself and will attract water into the intestines, causing diarrhea in some cases.

Ok, now I get it. Are you by any chance a disciple of Dr. Wilson or gbolduev? The stuff you just said about the properties of calcium and magnesium sounds exactely like the silly stuff they usually throw around.

 

[peep]

This is a good example but the real thing is how do you increase the good and not the bad if you are in situation example two with 70 bad and 30 good.

Either you believe me with saying it will feed MORE good than BAD. Or you need to research on your own. Just use science.gov or google with good searching skills :)

 

[Constatine]

What do you all think of coffee and gut repair? It seems that it might aid in gut repair provided you drink it with meals to avoid gastric secretion with nothing in your stomach.

 

[peep]

Constipation is a central symptom of what physicians refer to as IBD.

Are you sure you meant IBD (inflammable bowle disease) not IBS ?

In IBS there is IBS-D IBS-C

But in IBD there is constipation only when Inflammation is under control / all symptoms of IBD are ok.

 

[Kray]

Thank you. The bacteriophage products that Ray Peat has recommend are Florassist and Floraphage. Life Extension carries Florassist and I believe it is probiotics and bacteriophages. I purchased Floraphage at Vitamin Shoppe and it is only bacteriophages. I have not taken either one but @Peatful had good success with Florassist (IIRC).

@HDD- can you please clarify which of these products you meant in the Florassist line? I assumed it was Florassist GI with Macrophages, but there is one that is just prebiotics, and several others.

FLORASSIST GI, Phage Technology, 30 capsules | Life Extension
FLORASSIST Balance, 30 capsules | Life Extension
FLORASSIST Prebiotic Chewable, 60 chewable tablets| Life Extension

Thank you!

P.S. just re-read your post and see that you did say Florassist with both probios and phages, so sorry for my missing that. At any rate, have you gone ahead with the Floraphage? How are you doing? I am considering doing that one instead of the Florassist (but wonder why Peat was ok with probiotics), since there would be no probiotics thrown into the mix. Just not sure-

 

[peep]

What do you all think of coffee and gut repair? It seems that it might aid in gut repair provided you drink it with meals to avoid gastric secretion with nothing in your stomach.

I think it can really help the digestion/ stomach acid & bile.

And maybe liver which helps the digestion too.

Coffee enemas can help for toxin detox too.

But how could it repair the gut? @Constatine

 

[HDD]

@Kray I am taking the phloraphage (1 daily), taking Lapodin (to keep bowels moving), vitamin K, and being more consistent with monitoring my temps and dosing thyroid. I no longer have any symptoms and will probably stop dosing the phages after I've taken them for a week. I will continue with other pro metabolic substances. Here are some bits from interviews that I found regarding probiotics:

Josh Rubin: ....... The first one is, a lot of people out there are so gung ho crazy about probiotics. I mean that’s you all hear. People who have gas take probiotics, you know, anything wrong take probiotics and you don’t really talk too much about probiotics. Can you elaborate for the listeners on your thoughts about it and maybe some of the pros and cons of taking it?

Dr. Ray Peat: Specifically are you thinking about the bifidos, the lactic acid bacteria or…

Josh Rubin: A lactobacillus and bifidobacterium separately or a combination type of probiotic?

Dr. Ray Peat: They are probably okay to try. One thing that has made me skeptical about them was an article published in Nature about I think probably 35 or 40 years ago showed that there are endogenic regions on these lactobacilli that are exactly matching for proteins that are associated with female reproductive action, so that from puberty to menopause roughly, there is the risk of having an autoimmune or immunological interaction between intestinal bacteria and body tissues. And there hasn't been much follow-up on that but that is the period when autoimmune type problems show up in women and estrogen is probably the main factor that is involved in that but it just happens that there is this endogen parallel between the bacteria and the person. And the bacteria do have a direct anti-inflammatory effect on the membranes of the intestine but one problem is that they do produce lactic acid. And so if you provide them with enough fuel, they can have produce lactic acid which is a potential toxin. It stimulates inflammation and formation of fiber collagen stimulation.

Josh Rubin: Right, so I think that’s the biggest thing for everyone to understand is that lactobacillus is lactate producing. So if you take it and you don’t need it, you’re actually causing more of a problem than helping yourself, so think about that.

East West: Questions & Answers I



Q: Back to health, I was just wondering – and if it's not really relevant and you don't want to talk about, I'll call back some other time. But I was wondering about how do you like sort of reinoculate your stomach like it seems like I have had problems maybe from sulfides that killed off like maybe some of the enzymes, they help me digest vegetables and stuff. And I'm wondering if you guys have any suggestions how I can sort of reestablish those living organisms that I think made digestion easier when I was younger.

: And I think maybe like – because I know diary products seems like if I eat a lot of cheese and I eat a lot of yogurt, then I can drink milk, whereas if I haven't eaten cheese and yogurt in a while, I have a lot of problems digesting milk. And so I was thinking that might be the same situation with vegetables and you might have some ideas maybe with fermented vegetables help or something. Do you have any ideas on that and if you don’t want to talk about tonight then I’ll call back some other time

Dr. Ray Peat: I think you mentioned sulfide as a problem.

Sarah Johannesen Murray: Yes, he thought that he might have – the sulfides might have killed off some good bacteria and I do know from being friends with a winemaker that still fights our preservative and they are antimicrobial and they are like a bleaching product

Peat: Yes, and I think they might also help to initiate allergies with maybe interactive with the microbes that are also been damaged by the sulfides. The sulfides are reductants and the stress state is an exaggeratedly reduced state and things that promote good oxidative metabolism can help the intestine greatly keeping your thyroid in good condition.

Murray: And sulfides are anti-thyroid too, right?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes. And the slightly antiseptic foods such as cooked mushrooms, bamboo shoots, raw carrots and saturated fats, these help to keep down the potentially toxic bacteria.

Sarah Johannesen Murray: Yes and saturated fats are like coconut oil is antimicrobial.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes. And just keeping the digestive system stimulated and very active so that you tend digest the germs rather than being digested by them.

Sarah Johannesen Murray: Yes, so keeping your bowel movements frequent. And also just another thing, the one probiotic that I found quite useful for me personally was Dr. Ron's Ultra-Pure probiotic and that was one I didn't have adverse reactions to and I have had adverse reactions to a lot of the probiotics sold over-the-counter, so that one is over-the-counter too. You can find it online, Dr. Ron’s probiotics. And yes, the man mentioned that he was feeling better digesting milk when he had been eating cheese and yogurt and you do get a lot of natural probiotics from eating cultured dairy

Herb Doctors: Authoritarianism

@Kray I meant to answer about d-mannose from an earlier post. I started it the first day I had symptoms. The d-mannose gave relief but since I started running a fever the same day, I began the antibiotics I had on hand. I didn't keep up with the mannose and I don't think I was dosing enough to stop the uti (I read more about it later).

 

[Constatine]

I think it can really help the digestion/ stomach acid & bile.

And maybe liver which helps the digestion too.

Coffee enemas can help for toxin detox too.

But how could it repair the gut? @Constatine

It seems to stimulate tight junction protein expression and improve gut microbiome.

 

[Kray]

@Kray I am taking the phloraphage (1 daily), taking Lapodin (to keep bowels moving), vitamin K, and being more consistent with monitoring my temps and dosing thyroid. I no longer have any symptoms and will probably stop dosing the phages after I've taken them for a week. I will continue with other pro metabolic substances. Here are some bits from interviews that I found regarding probiotics:

Josh Rubin: ....... The first one is, a lot of people out there are so gung ho crazy about probiotics. I mean that’s you all hear. People who have gas take probiotics, you know, anything wrong take probiotics and you don’t really talk too much about probiotics. Can you elaborate for the listeners on your thoughts about it and maybe some of the pros and cons of taking it?

Dr. Ray Peat: Specifically are you thinking about the bifidos, the lactic acid bacteria or…

Josh Rubin: A lactobacillus and bifidobacterium separately or a combination type of probiotic?

Dr. Ray Peat: They are probably okay to try. One thing that has made me skeptical about them was an article published in Nature about I think probably 35 or 40 years ago showed that there are endogenic regions on these lactobacilli that are exactly matching for proteins that are associated with female reproductive action, so that from puberty to menopause roughly, there is the risk of having an autoimmune or immunological interaction between intestinal bacteria and body tissues. And there hasn't been much follow-up on that but that is the period when autoimmune type problems show up in women and estrogen is probably the main factor that is involved in that but it just happens that there is this endogen parallel between the bacteria and the person. And the bacteria do have a direct anti-inflammatory effect on the membranes of the intestine but one problem is that they do produce lactic acid. And so if you provide them with enough fuel, they can have produce lactic acid which is a potential toxin. It stimulates inflammation and formation of fiber collagen stimulation.

Josh Rubin: Right, so I think that’s the biggest thing for everyone to understand is that lactobacillus is lactate producing. So if you take it and you don’t need it, you’re actually causing more of a problem than helping yourself, so think about that.

East West: Questions & Answers I



Q: Back to health, I was just wondering – and if it's not really relevant and you don't want to talk about, I'll call back some other time. But I was wondering about how do you like sort of reinoculate your stomach like it seems like I have had problems maybe from sulfides that killed off like maybe some of the enzymes, they help me digest vegetables and stuff. And I'm wondering if you guys have any suggestions how I can sort of reestablish those living organisms that I think made digestion easier when I was younger.

: And I think maybe like – because I know diary products seems like if I eat a lot of cheese and I eat a lot of yogurt, then I can drink milk, whereas if I haven't eaten cheese and yogurt in a while, I have a lot of problems digesting milk. And so I was thinking that might be the same situation with vegetables and you might have some ideas maybe with fermented vegetables help or something. Do you have any ideas on that and if you don’t want to talk about tonight then I’ll call back some other time

Dr. Ray Peat: I think you mentioned sulfide as a problem.

Sarah Johannesen Murray: Yes, he thought that he might have – the sulfides might have killed off some good bacteria and I do know from being friends with a winemaker that still fights our preservative and they are antimicrobial and they are like a bleaching product

Peat: Yes, and I think they might also help to initiate allergies with maybe interactive with the microbes that are also been damaged by the sulfides. The sulfides are reductants and the stress state is an exaggeratedly reduced state and things that promote good oxidative metabolism can help the intestine greatly keeping your thyroid in good condition.

Murray: And sulfides are anti-thyroid too, right?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes. And the slightly antiseptic foods such as cooked mushrooms, bamboo shoots, raw carrots and saturated fats, these help to keep down the potentially toxic bacteria.

Sarah Johannesen Murray: Yes and saturated fats are like coconut oil is antimicrobial.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes. And just keeping the digestive system stimulated and very active so that you tend digest the germs rather than being digested by them.

Sarah Johannesen Murray: Yes, so keeping your bowel movements frequent. And also just another thing, the one probiotic that I found quite useful for me personally was Dr. Ron's Ultra-Pure probiotic and that was one I didn't have adverse reactions to and I have had adverse reactions to a lot of the probiotics sold over-the-counter, so that one is over-the-counter too. You can find it online, Dr. Ron’s probiotics. And yes, the man mentioned that he was feeling better digesting milk when he had been eating cheese and yogurt and you do get a lot of natural probiotics from eating cultured dairy

Herb Doctors: Authoritarianism

Great points, I had read this transcript when you sent it earlier, but this puts my concerns in better context- with diet helps, like good dairy (we eat good quality Gk yogurt, raw milk, cheeses), and supplements, I’m more inclined to have husband try Floraphage, as you are.

Fyi- I contacted Lef re: Florassist. Roughly half of the 15bil probiotic strains in the product are Lactobacilli types, and the other half are Bifido strains. From what Peat shared in the interview, he only mentioned concerns with Lactobacillus. Interestingly, the Tetraphage in Florassist go after 4 different E.coli strains, which are the most common culprits in UTIs, btw.

Glad to know you’re doing better, thank you for your input and help!

 

[Kray]

@Kray I am taking the phloraphage (1 daily), taking Lapodin (to keep bowels moving), vitamin K, and being more consistent with monitoring my temps and dosing thyroid. I no longer have any symptoms and will probably stop dosing the phages after I've taken them for a week. I will continue with other pro metabolic substances. Here are some bits from interviews that I found regarding probiotics:

Josh Rubin: ....... The first one is, a lot of people out there are so gung ho crazy about probiotics. I mean that’s you all hear. People who have gas take probiotics, you know, anything wrong take probiotics and you don’t really talk too much about probiotics. Can you elaborate for the listeners on your thoughts about it and maybe some of the pros and cons of taking it?

Dr. Ray Peat: Specifically are you thinking about the bifidos, the lactic acid bacteria or…

Josh Rubin: A lactobacillus and bifidobacterium separately or a combination type of probiotic?

Dr. Ray Peat: They are probably okay to try. One thing that has made me skeptical about them was an article published in Nature about I think probably 35 or 40 years ago showed that there are endogenic regions on these lactobacilli that are exactly matching for proteins that are associated with female reproductive action, so that from puberty to menopause roughly, there is the risk of having an autoimmune or immunological interaction between intestinal bacteria and body tissues. And there hasn't been much follow-up on that but that is the period when autoimmune type problems show up in women and estrogen is probably the main factor that is involved in that but it just happens that there is this endogen parallel between the bacteria and the person. And the bacteria do have a direct anti-inflammatory effect on the membranes of the intestine but one problem is that they do produce lactic acid. And so if you provide them with enough fuel, they can have produce lactic acid which is a potential toxin. It stimulates inflammation and formation of fiber collagen stimulation.

Josh Rubin: Right, so I think that’s the biggest thing for everyone to understand is that lactobacillus is lactate producing. So if you take it and you don’t need it, you’re actually causing more of a problem than helping yourself, so think about that.

East West: Questions & Answers I



Q: Back to health, I was just wondering – and if it's not really relevant and you don't want to talk about, I'll call back some other time. But I was wondering about how do you like sort of reinoculate your stomach like it seems like I have had problems maybe from sulfides that killed off like maybe some of the enzymes, they help me digest vegetables and stuff. And I'm wondering if you guys have any suggestions how I can sort of reestablish those living organisms that I think made digestion easier when I was younger.

: And I think maybe like – because I know diary products seems like if I eat a lot of cheese and I eat a lot of yogurt, then I can drink milk, whereas if I haven't eaten cheese and yogurt in a while, I have a lot of problems digesting milk. And so I was thinking that might be the same situation with vegetables and you might have some ideas maybe with fermented vegetables help or something. Do you have any ideas on that and if you don’t want to talk about tonight then I’ll call back some other time

Dr. Ray Peat: I think you mentioned sulfide as a problem.

Sarah Johannesen Murray: Yes, he thought that he might have – the sulfides might have killed off some good bacteria and I do know from being friends with a winemaker that still fights our preservative and they are antimicrobial and they are like a bleaching product

Peat: Yes, and I think they might also help to initiate allergies with maybe interactive with the microbes that are also been damaged by the sulfides. The sulfides are reductants and the stress state is an exaggeratedly reduced state and things that promote good oxidative metabolism can help the intestine greatly keeping your thyroid in good condition.

Murray: And sulfides are anti-thyroid too, right?

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes. And the slightly antiseptic foods such as cooked mushrooms, bamboo shoots, raw carrots and saturated fats, these help to keep down the potentially toxic bacteria.

Sarah Johannesen Murray: Yes and saturated fats are like coconut oil is antimicrobial.

Dr. Ray Peat: Yes. And just keeping the digestive system stimulated and very active so that you tend digest the germs rather than being digested by them.

Sarah Johannesen Murray: Yes, so keeping your bowel movements frequent. And also just another thing, the one probiotic that I found quite useful for me personally was Dr. Ron's Ultra-Pure probiotic and that was one I didn't have adverse reactions to and I have had adverse reactions to a lot of the probiotics sold over-the-counter, so that one is over-the-counter too. You can find it online, Dr. Ron’s probiotics. And yes, the man mentioned that he was feeling better digesting milk when he had been eating cheese and yogurt and you do get a lot of natural probiotics from eating cultured dairy

Herb Doctors: Authoritarianism

@Kray I meant to answer about d-mannose from an earlier post. I started it the first day I had symptoms. The d-mannose gave relief but since I started running a fever the same day, I began the antibiotics I had on hand. I didn't keep up with the mannose and I don't think I was dosing enough to stop the uti (I read more about it later).

Fwiw- I think it’s a good supplement to have on hand. But I also agree, it seems to be a good preventive, as well as for first signs (easier for women to gauge, imo).

 

[Kray]

I haven't done any probiotics or cultured foods since finding Peat. However, since he has recently been recommending the products with bacteriophages, I would use either product. I bought the Florassist first and my husband took the whole bottle ( I don't recall why he took them). I originally was going to take the Floraphage to combat the uti, but have now started them since I think I might have a yeast problem and also want to make sure the uti is gone. I don't know if they will work but I'm mainly using it because it's what I have in my pharmacy.

@HDD- just thinking about you, wonder how you’re doing? Update on Floraphage use?

 

[walker_in_aus]

I mixed RPPPS and mineral broth - tastes just like bone broth. Not sure it's helping, my lower intestines feel a bit inflamed and I'm having excessive BM... but I'm also taking PS at night for high cortisol at night, so maybe that is affecting me now.

 

[jitsmonkey]

its worth noting that for many people antibiotics ARE gut repair.

 

[walker_in_aus]

its worth noting that for many people antibiotics ARE gut repair.

I know. I was hoping for that, instead i am back to rashy legs, sore bloated belly and bad digestion and high cortisol...

 

[Constatine]

Colostrum is very effective and benign in my experience for gut repair. For the men androgens like DHT also seen effective at building the intestines.

 

[peep]

its worth noting that for many people antibiotics ARE gut repair.

No not gut repair.
You will just lower the total count of bacteria. And if you had plenty of bad, of course you will be better than before. But if you dont change things, you will be at the same point in months.
Of course you could use Antibiotics again. But healing is something else.

With this thinking, I get Rays thoughts about "clean gut".
But this state is not durable. + gut bacteria do things. Its not as easy as clean all out.

A baby is born with a almost clean gut. But with milk it will build up its bacteria.

 

[DuggaDugga]

Does anyone have any research regarding which gut bacteria are "good" and which are "bad" and *why*? I see those labels thrown around constantly with virtually no reasonable supporting evidence. Personally I do the best on easily digested foods that keep my bacteria starved. I do eat potatoes occasionally, well-cooked, and digested slowly (chewed thoroughly, consumed with saturated fat). Any sort of bean, poorly cooked starch, etc. leads to bloating, mood dysregulation, and acne in my experience. I'm not ready to unilaterally say gut bacteria are undesirable, but pro-biotics as an ideology and marketed product haven't been adequately demonstrated to be beneficial in my limited research and experience. What seems the most compelling is vitamin K2, but how much of it is actually absorbed in the colon?

 

[peep]

@DuggaDugga

There are like 1000 different bacterias. But around 40 big "known" strains.

Obviously bad is candida, clostridium difficile, citrobacter, enterobacter, proteus, trametes, rhodotorula. .....
Just look those up an decide for yourself if you like them or not :P

I think pro-biotics is pretty useless if you are using it wrong. Probiotics are only starterpacks. And most time its really low dose and single strain.

Bloating can also occure when you start feeding fermentable fiber or you got a high count of sulfur degrading bacteria for example. Or" bad" ones in general.
This will disappear if you continue to feed fermentable fiber though and you get your balance back.

 

[Constatine]

Does anyone have any research regarding which gut bacteria are "good" and which are "bad" and *why*? I see those labels thrown around constantly with virtually no reasonable supporting evidence. Personally I do the best on easily digested foods that keep my bacteria starved. I do eat potatoes occasionally, well-cooked, and digested slowly (chewed thoroughly, consumed with saturated fat). Any sort of bean, poorly cooked starch, etc. leads to bloating, mood dysregulation, and acne in my experience. I'm not ready to unilaterally say gut bacteria are undesirable, but pro-biotics as an ideology and marketed product haven't been adequately demonstrated to be beneficial in my limited research and experience. What seems the most compelling is vitamin K2, but how much of it is actually absorbed in the colon?

Good bacteria typically produce more butyrate, less lactic acid ( especially of the d variety) and even produce vitamins and hormones. That said I don't think probiotics are a reliable way to get better. You must have repaired your intestinal tract to where it is at least somewhat functional else the bacteria could leak into your blood stream. There are also countless reports of probiotics making people worse off and I believe Haidut posted about it being an immune suppressant. Though of course there are good studies and positive reports regarding probiotics one should really be careful with it. It seems though that repairing the intestinal tract also dramatically changes the gut microbiome for the better.

 

[walker_in_aus]

Good bacteria typically produce more butyrate, less lactic acid ( especially of the d variety) and even produce vitamins and hormones. That said I don't think probiotics are a reliable way to get better. You must have repaired your intestinal tract to where it is at least somewhat functional else the bacteria could leak into your blood stream. There are also countless reports of probiotics making people worse off and I believe Haidut posted about it being an immune suppressant. Though of course there are good studies and positive reports regarding probiotics one should really be careful with it. It seems though that repairing the intestinal tract also dramatically changes the gut microbiome for the better.

Very good points and why I was trying colostrum and RPPPS, and not downing bottles of probiotics. I've been consistantly taking NAC and coconut oil/MCT but I've noticed lots of mucous... so not sure but seems like yeast is growing not dying. I also just got in some MB, which I'm reading reading reading up on!

I'm going to have to try BCAA I think, potato soup is not working for me, perhaps I am too sensitive to starch remenants? Might try fruit jellies and L-Glutamine.