Loose Stools - Maybe A Good Sign I'm Successfully Disrupting Gut Biofilm?

Discussion in 'Digestion, Gut Flora' started by yerrag, Mar 9, 2020.

  1. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    I've been taking a blend of herbs, and after two weeks, I began to have loose stools, and find myself going to the toilet very often. Occasionally, I'd have diarrhea.

    I'm taking a blend of herbs that disrupts biofilms, but I was taking it not for the gut (as my gut has been fine all along, or at least I haven't noticed anything to complain about - no gas, daily bowel movement, and feces don't smell so bad (unlike way before I lessened fiber intake), and no acid reflux; also don't recall a bum stomach). I was taking the blend to disrupt biofilm in my blood vessels.

    At first I suspected that it was my magnesium supplementation, but after removing that supplementation, my loose bowel condition persists.

    I did some research, and I found that on a site where the gut microbiome is discussed, it talked about talking some biofilm disruptors, and that it had to be taken for 2 weeks for effects to show.

    Well, my diarrhea occurred after two weeks of taking the herbal blend. I thought to myself whether the diarrhea is a sign of bacteria being released into the gut as a result of biofilm being disrupted.

    If true, the next thing on my mind is: How do I stop this diarrhea?

    Incidentally, I wasn't taking any antibiotics at the moment as I'd stopped taking antibiotics as I had to give myself a little break from antibiotics. I'd been taking doxy 100mg/day for 40 days already, and I want to be cautious as there's a thread about how too much use of tetracycline antibiotics could downregulate the mitochondria.

    Could it be though that the solution to this diarrhea condition is simply to restore my use of antibiotics?

    If so, it would make perfect sense, wouldn't it? If the gut has biofilms, just taking biofilm disruptors would release bacteria, and antibiotics would keep the diarrhea from occurring.

    But what if there are biofilms, and one is just taking antibiotics to fix his gut? Wouldn't that also be a deficient approach? Wouldn't one pile up on the dosage of antibiotics and instead of getting better, once would get worse because he's destroying too much of the microbiome, and that would lead to imbalance and dysbiosis eventually?

    Biofilms are tough. It's the way established bacteria protect themselves. If you had years of not having good eating practices, poor gut transit times, and your microbiome has already sufference imbalance, biofilms could already have taken root in your gut. Taking antibiotics alone isn't enough, as the biofilms are really tough and antibiotics can't break through biofilms. Taking biofilm disruptors together with antibiotics, or maybe even before antibiotis, may be what's needed to break through the persistent state of poor health of the gut.

    Just a thought.
     
  2. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Also, don't some people constipate when they take doxycycline?

    Could it be that their bowel movement is dependent on serotonin, and with some gut bacteria being destroyed by antibiotics, not enough serotonin is produced to drive bowel movement?
     
  3. Vinny

    Vinny Member

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    I can,t say I was constipated on Doxy, althou to some extent it was a constipation.
    It actually was more like a struggle to excrete the the guest who came to knock on the door, than a lack of a visit at all. Am not sure Am explaining this well. We probably have to define here, what,s constipation.

    Regarding the 1st post, it sounds logical to use the biofilm disruptors first, then antbx.

    But, if diarrhea is from biofilm brake, woldn,t resolve itself naturally after the biofilm is gone?
     
  4. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    You have to ask why you're disrupting the biofilm. Is that the end in itself? What is the real purpose of breaking the biofilm?

    Is it to let loose the bacteria in the biofilm? Or is it to kill the bacteria so that it doesn't recolonize and reform the biofilm?

    Your diarrhea may resolve itself, but does that mean the pathogenic bacteria are gone? Do you want to find a cure or do you want to have a maintenance drug, to manage a recurring pahological condition?
     
  5. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Quax' latest podcast is a gem. It's about the relative merits of the different kinds of antibiotics. It's a nice listen.

    Saves me from having to do the research, which wouldn't be as useful as what he's done.

    Thanks @Tarmander!
     
  6. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    :rockout
     
  7. rei

    rei Member

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    I think one of the most benign things you could try is to take activated charcoal.
     
  8. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    That's a good approach, especially when the cause of the diarrhea is an external pathogen. It adsorbs the pathogen and the pathogen is excreted through the fecal route.

    If the bacteria is internally generated, through biofilm disruption, it may be too benign on the bacteria, as it may not be sufficient to keep the bacteria from reforming the biofilm.

    Incidentally, don't people complain of AC making them constipated? AC is doing its job too well, and certainly it's not a knock against AC. Constipation is a sign that the person is relying too much on serotonin to drive bowel movement.

    That person is either hypothyroid, or deficient in magnesium, or vitamin A, or a combination of the above.
     
  9. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    I don't know if it's a coincidence, but I slept so so well last night. I continue to take my blend of TCM herbs, albeit at a reduced level, and my diarrhea didn't reoccur.

    It may be that systemically, my free bacteria levels (not in biofilm), from gut (external, considering the gut as part of a tube) to the internals (circulatory system) altogether. Perhaps it's due to the effect of lower serotonin levels, from both lower bacteria and endotoxin levels.

    I hope I can continue on this state every night. It's like regaining a third of my life!
     
  10. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    @yerrag what blend of herbs are you taking?
     
  11. Peater Piper

    Peater Piper Member

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    It gave me watery diarrhea within the first 24 hours, and persisted for about three days until I added in probiotics. That said, I had an acute Lyme infection, so it wasn't like I was taking it while in a relatively healthy state, but antibiotics in general tend to give me loose stools.
     
  12. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    I'm taking a blend of berberine extract, rhubarb extract, and chitosan in a ratio of 3:3:1. Split into 3 doses, I take them about 30 minutes after each meal, mixed in water.

    This is a blend I put together for its biofilm disrupting, anti-bacterial, and anti-fungal properties, as well as for countering the enzyme activity of the periodontal bacteria p. gingivalis. It wasn't intended for my gut, but for my blood vessels. That it's doing something in my gut is a surprise (initially unpleasant but pleasant afterwards, if my hunch is correct). Even if I show no symptoms of any gut problem whatsoever, it may just mean my gut is still sub-optimal without showing symptoms.

    The chitosan is mainly anti-fungal, but also a biofilm buster. Fungi helps anaerobic bacteria survive when exposed to oxygen. With anti-fungals, anaerobic bacteria such as periodontal bacteria stand much less chance of survival. I got the chitosan from Bulksupplements.

    The rest are dry TCM herbal extracts made to a higher concentration of potency. So a 5:1 extract means 1 g of the granule or powder means it's equivalent to 5 g of the dry herb. I got them from www.activerherb.com which mainly sells traditional chinese medicine.

    The berberine extract (Huang Lian, 5:1 concentration) is anti-microbial and also disrupts biofilms. It also counters the effect of enzymes produced by periodontal bacteria, which inhibits insulin production, and also keeps enzymes from dismembering peptides, where they use the carbon and nitrogen for their food.

    The rhubarb extract (Da Huang, 6:1 concentration) is anti-bacterial, coming from its components aloe-emodin, rhein, chrysophanol, and emodin.

    I'm guessing that this blend is also having an effect on the gut biofilm bacteria, maybe because it has some periodontal bacteria, or that the blend not only affects periodontal bacteria, but generally anaerobic bacteria as well. I believe a lot of gut bacterial issues are anaerobic in nature.
     
  13. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Yeah, the gut microbiome varies from one to another. It seemed like doxycycline, being broad spectrum, was having the effect of disturbing the balance in the gut. That probiotics help seem to indicate that what becomes dominant after taking doxy is the putrefactive kind of anaerobic bacteria, what is generally called bad bacteria.

    Perhaps biofilm is involved also, and the biofilm survives the doxy. The biofilm may be very colonized and widespread, and the bacteria it gives off continually, even without biofilm being disrupted, is still significant. After doxy, it continues to give off the same amount of bacteria while the bacteria that balances it is weakened, and this makes for its dominance after doxy.

    I'm just thinking out loud. I could be wrong. But still food for thought.
     
  14. OP
    yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Shows how candida albicans, a fungus, and porphyromonas gingivalis periodontal bacteria are symbiotic in forming biofilms, and how they cause citrullination of arginine. The citrullinated peptides are attacked by our immune system, and this is one cause of arthritis in our joints:

    The Activity of Bacterial Peptidylarginine Deiminase Is Important During Formation of Dual-Species Biofilm by Periodontal Pathogen Porphyromonas Gingivalis and Opportunistic Fungus Candida Albicans - PubMed
     
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