Getting Old Feeling

[marsaday]

I am really feeling old and i think it is more to do with hormonal health than age.

I am 46 this year, but i am fit and active. I take thyroid T4 because i have a lower functioning thyroid. This is usually 125 T4 per day. I also take vitamin D and sometimes a little T3 (3mcg per day is a normal amount). Plus i use 2 drops ProgestE per day = 6mg progesterone.

Currently i am doing ok, but i am feeling much more tired later in the day and my body is aching a lot. My forearms are really aching and i feel much weaker in this area. Recovery from sport is much harder at the moment as well. On thursday just gone i played football, but on friday and today my legs have been aching so much.

I suppose i need some blood tests doing to see which hormones may be lower. I don't think this is thyroid related, but it could be obviously. Could testosterone be an issue ? Or could it be poor adrenal function.

I have also been using androsterone 2 drops per night. It seemed to improve things initially, but now i notice no difference.

I also notice recently after eating lunch i feel much more tired afterwards. Normally i feel better after eating food. What could this mean ?

 

[HLP]

Try increasing your T3, 3mcg isn't significant enough to make much of a difference. What is your resting pulse rate? Maybe try reducing real strenuous sports, especially if your body doesn't recover well. For meals that leave you tired, do these contain starch? What is your diet like on a daily basis? Are you getting enough protein? Yes testosterone could be problematic but you don't fix that by taking testosterone. Poor functioning adrenals is usually related to low thyroid function and high cortisol. Redness in the rims of your eyelids and the bottom corner under your eye on the inside is indicative of spent adrenals. Taking adrenal glandular is like beating a dead horse. More than likely thyroid would help, so you may need to adjust your meds. What is your sleep like?

 

[marsaday]

I always sleep well usually.

I think the adrenals are ok, so yes i do think this is thyroid related BUT i can have trouble using T3 in bigger amounts. I have found higher amounts of T3 shut down my system. Maybe i need to try taking a larger amount again, say 12.5mcg or 6.25mcg just to test the system.

I have been wondering if my ProgestE bottle has sort of expired as it is now 2 yrs and 3 months since i bought it. The progesterone usage is the number one best thing i have done apart from taking thyroid meds over the years. So i am thinking about buying a new bottle of ProgestE to see if this could be the cause of my woes.

I eat well generally and i think i get enough protein. I think i should drink more milk as i only have about 1/2 pint with my cereal at breakfast. Lunch will be soup and bread, evening meal will be vegetables, meat or fish and rice or potatoes. I also eat cakes or sweet things after every meal. 2-3 coffees per day. I am not a body builder, but play sport at a good level so do stress my anaerobic systems. The football doesn't stress this system that much, but it does seems to stress the muscles the next day.

My heart rate is very low and always has been. I cannot get it up, even though my temps are good. I think someone has said this may not be as bad a sign as often mentioned on the ray peat forums. Resting HR is usually 45.

Thanks for the reply as other thoughts always help work out what path to take.

 

[DuggaDugga]

I always sleep well usually.

I think the adrenals are ok, so yes i do think this is thyroid related BUT i can have trouble using T3 in bigger amounts. I have found higher amounts of T3 shut down my system. Maybe i need to try taking a larger amount again, say 12.5mcg or 6.25mcg just to test the system.

I have been wondering if my ProgestE bottle has sort of expired as it is now 2 yrs and 3 months since i bought it. The progesterone usage is the number one best thing i have done apart from taking thyroid meds over the years. So i am thinking about buying a new bottle of ProgestE to see if this could be the cause of my woes.

I eat well generally and i think i get enough protein. I think i should drink more milk as i only have about 1/2 pint with my cereal at breakfast. Lunch will be soup and bread, evening meal will be vegetables, meat or fish and rice or potatoes. I also eat cakes or sweet things after every meal. 2-3 coffees per day. I am not a body builder, but play sport at a good level so do stress my anaerobic systems. The football doesn't stress this system that much, but it does seems to stress the muscles the next day.

My heart rate is very low and always has been. I cannot get it up, even though my temps are good. I think someone has said this may not be as bad a sign as often mentioned on the ray peat forums. Resting HR is usually 45.

Thanks for the reply as other thoughts always help work out what path to take.

You could experiment with thyroid or other supplements more, but I think you may benefit greatest from adding/dropping various foods to see how it helps. I can definitely relate to the lethargic, "old" feeling; it's frustrating, because you're so cognizant of it yet seemingly helpless.

About a year into "Peating" I feel the best I have in my entire life, but there have been hiccups along the way. The salient thing that's been there each time I've regressed has been reintroduction of starches and grains. Without fail, no matter how well I cook them, potatoes just instantly send me into torpor. Same with bread, raw vegetables, or anything that is likely to make it to my colon undigested. As long as I keep it up it persists; visceral fat starts building back up, I'm uninterested in things in my life, etc. All my symptoms point to excessive serotonin.

Looking at how you've described your diet it seems like these types of foods are staples. You might try going a week or two without them and see what happens.

 

[marsaday]

There doesn't seem to be a pattern though which makes it harder to work out what is going on.

Often i have periods where i feel very well and the diet hasn't changed.

If i do look at diet more closely is a good start to stop the bread intake to see what happens here ? What about muesli as a start to the day. This is the normal food for me or porridge.

The whole food thing really confuses me.

 

[mont109]

Hypothyroidism is not a static disease - it has active issues that don't seem realized
- it can affect body with dry eyes and mouth and sore muscles called DEMS
Increased prevalence of antibodies to thyroid peroxidase in dry eyes and mouth syndrome or sicca asthenia polyalgia syndrome.
Increased prevalence of antibodies to thyroid peroxidase in dry eyes and mouth syndrome or sicca asthenia polyalgia syndrome. - PubMed - NCBI
Your doctor should check for thyroid antibodies
- Hypothyroidism is Autoimmune and it is possible you have other autoimmune diseases:
- intrinsic factor antibodies which prevent you from absorbing B12 - need to be checked
- Celiac antibodies - if you have a sensitive gut you can be gluten sensitive even with no discernable antibodies :
Fibromyalgia and non-celiac gluten sensitivity: a description with remission of fibromyalgia
- chronic fatigue - now found to be a T-cell dysfunction now that Rituximab found to help 2/3 of them
Treating Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: The IACFS/ME Conference Overviews Part V
it gets worse with autoimmunity expressing as a small fiber neurop

 

[mont109]

accidentally continued from above:
small fiber neuropathy affecting the autonomic nervous system.
Next, and bizarre as it seems, thyroid supplementation is associated with a large increase in bacterial overgrowth:
World Journal of Gastroenterology - Baishideng Publishing Group
lastly, If your hypothroidism is related to Hashimoto's thyroiditis, a recent study found the incidence of Fibromyalgia to be 62%
Fibromyalgia in patients with thyroid autoimmunity: prevalence and relationship with disease activity. - PubMed - NCBI
I wonder if any of that rings true to others with low thyroid ? - if so, than tweaking thyroid doses might not cut it.

 

[artlange]

I eat well generally and i think i get enough protein. I think i should drink more milk as i only have about 1/2 pint with my cereal at breakfast. Lunch will be soup and bread, evening meal will be vegetables, meat or fish and rice or potatoes. I also eat cakes or sweet things after every meal. 2-3 coffees per day. I am not a body builder, but play sport at a good level so do stress my anaerobic systems. The football doesn't stress this system that much, but it does seems to stress the muscles the next day.

My heart rate is very low and always has been. I cannot get it up, even though my temps are good. I think someone has said this may not be as bad a sign as often mentioned on the ray peat forums. Resting HR is usually 45.

your liver may not be converting the T4 into T3. Have you checked your daily food intake with chronometer? you probably are low with protein, sugar and fats, of the right kind, for you liver to work properly and converth T4 to T3. with your low HR, it seems you are really low thyroid.

 

[DaveFoster]

The salient thing that's been there each time I've regressed has been reintroduction of starches and grains.

People choose to ignore how vehemently Peat opposes starches; he's only ever said bad things about the starch particle, and he's explicitly avoided all starch for many years, even while consuming some muscle meats. He refers to the potato in a similar manner as green leaves; valuable only when thoroughly-cooked, and it's best to throw out the solid part (as with potato juice, kale broth, etc.).

 

[raypeatclips]

People choose to ignore how vehemently Peat opposes starches; he's only ever said bad things about the starch particle, and he's explicitly avoided all starch for many years, even while consuming some muscle meats. He refers to the potato in a similar manner as green leaves; valuable only when thoroughly-cooked, and it's best to throw out the solid part (as with potato juice, kale broth, etc.).

Others over exaggerate Peats view on starches. He has said that people with good digestion could manage with starch as the bulk of their carbs, he has praised the potato many times and called it an almost perfect food. Someone asked him about a meal they get from chipotle I think it was, which contained rice and he said that all the ingredients were safe. When mentioning starches he sometimes says oh, well, added saturated fat/butter protects against negative effects. Compare that reaction to whenever something like pufa oil is mentioned his voice changes to serious and says things like "they are very dangerous, contribute to many cancers and degenerate diseases" Compare that to his responses about starch.

When I personally asked Peat about potatoes in the diet his response was "they are very nutritious"

He has avoided starch for many years yes but would then also say not to follow someone else's diet for the sole reason that's their diet.

There are many people that have lived over 100 years old in Asian countries consuming rice every meal of the day. In my opinion if the starch was so damaging this would not be possible. I am not sure someone eating high pufa every meal would be able to reach 100 years old.

Of course if there are problems when reintroducing starch then don't eat starch but to rule out eating starches definitively in the way we speak about pufa is short sighted

 

[marsaday]

I will look at the chronometer to see what my food intake =. thats for the tip.

Weirdly i do convert T4 to T3 well, but the absorption of the T3 was my issue years ago. Progesterone has really helped with this.

As for antibodies, i didn't have an issue with them when first tested 8 yrs ago, but i would need new specific blood tests to check this area is all ok.

Thanks for the links, i will have a read through them.

Vitamin D has also made a big difference to me. I have stopped taking it quite so much this summer because i am expecting to get more sunlight naturally. However, i started taking my 5000 iu tablets again the other week and i noticed a good difference. So taking these about 3 x per week again. Anyone know why Vitamin D can have such an effect on me. Is it more important if i am hypothyroid ?

 

[raypeatclips]

@marsaday I am starting to believe vitamin D deficiency can cause a whole host of symptoms that people misinterpret as various other things. Have you had your vit d levels tested?

 

[DaveFoster]

Others over exaggerate Peats view on starches. He has said that people with good digestion could manage with starch as the bulk of their carbs, he has praised the potato many times and called it an almost perfect food. Someone asked him about a meal they get from chipotle I think it was, which contained rice and he said that all the ingredients were safe. When mentioning starches he sometimes says oh, well, added saturated fat/butter protects against negative effects. Compare that reaction to whenever something like pufa oil is mentioned his voice changes to serious and says things like "they are very dangerous, contribute to many cancers and degenerate diseases" Compare that to his responses about starch.

When I personally asked Peat about potatoes in the diet his response was "they are very nutritious"

He has avoided starch for many years yes but would then also say not to follow someone else's diet for the sole reason that's their diet.

There are many people that have lived over 100 years old in Asian countries consuming rice every meal of the day. In my opinion if the starch was so damaging this would not be possible. I am not sure someone eating high pufa every meal would be able to reach 100 years old.

Of course if there are problems when reintroducing starch then don't eat starch but to rule out eating starches definitively in the way we speak about pufa is short sighted

tyw eats quite a bit of starch, and rice has some advantages over corn starch: Comparative effects of non-gelatinized corn and rice starches on the life-span of ICR mice. - PubMed - NCBI

It's difficult to use epidemological evidence to support the consumption of starch though, due to the large population size (in China for example, which guarantees a certain number of centenarians), varying levels of adaptation (an absence of wheat for example, and adaptations for superior glucose tolerance among certain populations), high levels of physical activity, consumption of adaptogens, plant fibers and other herbs (tobacco and similar stimulants). There's certainly evidence that grains lead to osteoporosis and mineral depletion: both modern work by WAP, as well as antiquated evidence, as with Egyptians who suffered from degenerative diseases likely linked to a lack of animal products in their diets (deemed as "healthy.")

Rice and potatoes seem to be the least offensive starches, and even wheat (prior to its Frankenstein mutations) seems to have been supportive of civilization. We can't say that starches aren't harmful, however, as there's no way to know if the 100 year old centenarians would instead reach 120 or 130 years of age if they minimized their starch consumption and ate more fruit, as an example. Even so, starch does not seem appropriate for some with hypothyroidism, but others do fine.

 

[raypeatclips]

tyw eats quite a bit of starch, and rice has some advantages over corn starch: Comparative effects of non-gelatinized corn and rice starches on the life-span of ICR mice. - PubMed - NCBI

It's difficult to use epidemological evidence to support the consumption of starch though, due to the large population size (in China for example, which guarantees a certain number of centenarians), varying levels of adaptation (an absence of wheat for example, and adaptations for superior glucose tolerance among certain populations), high levels of physical activity, consumption of adaptogens, plant fibers and other herbs (tobacco and similar stimulants). There's certainly evidence that grains lead to osteoporosis and mineral depletion: both modern work by WAP, as well as antiquated evidence, as with Egyptians who suffered from degenerative diseases likely linked to a lack of animal products in their diets (deemed as "healthy."

Rice and potatoes seem to be the least offensive starches, and even wheat (prior to its Frankenstein mutations) seems to have been supportive of civilization. We can't say that starches aren't harmful, however, as there's no way to know if the 100 year old centenarians would instead reach 120 or 130 years of age if they minimized their starch consumption and ate more fruit, as an example. Even so, starch does not seem appropriate for some with hypothyroidism, but others do fine.

Good points, I'm not sure the Peat sphere will ever fully agree on starch and who says it needs to?

 

[lollipop]

I'm not sure the Peat sphere will ever fully agree on starch and who says it needs to?

+1

If 2 years of active participation in this forum has taught me anything, it is:

1) minimize PUFA,

2) every single person is different and has to experiment to find what works for them. Everyone has a different starting point, different environmental factors, different level of support system, etc. Mimicking another's path doesn't work - we have seen this on this forum repeatedly,

3) recovering health and creating wellness is a journey NOT a destination. At times we need to pivot, adjust, tweek, go a different direction, maybe even circle back after a time - NOT a straight line.

 

[marsaday]

@marsaday I am starting to believe vitamin D deficiency can cause a whole host of symptoms that people misinterpret as various other things. Have you had your vit d levels tested?

When i last had it tested in feb 2017 it was 160 mol/l. So i was at a good level and was supplementing as of last autumn. It made a good difference to my health. But since the summer time, say end of may i had stopped taking it as much. Whether this is the reason i am experiencing some issues, i don't know.

The pain i get in my elbows and forearms is arthritis type related i imagine. Currently my arms feel pretty weak and i play sport and do a physical job. A pain in the bum really.

Yes the journey to improving health is not a linear line. Things change and we have to adapt.

 

[Peater Piper]

People choose to ignore how vehemently Peat opposes starches; he's only ever said bad things about the starch particle, and he's explicitly avoided all starch for many years, even while consuming some muscle meats. He refers to the potato in a similar manner as green leaves; valuable only when thoroughly-cooked, and it's best to throw out the solid part (as with potato juice, kale broth, etc.).

I think it's abundantly clear Peat favors sugar/fructose over starch/glucose. Obviously he's had some good things to say about potatoes, but with the caveat that it's still starch. I also think he makes some valid arguments against starch and for fructose/fruit. That said, none of that matters much if a person does poorly on a high sugar diet. It doesn't seem all that uncommon, and I'm one of those people that hasn't been able to make it work. My starch sources tend to be white bread, well cooked potatoes, white rice, and pasta. I've tried swapping them out for fruit/fruit juice/honey on several different occasions. Each time, it started off okay, but over a period of weeks I'd start to feel low energy, achy, and it would feel like I was in a haze. I also track my blood glucose, and while post prandial readings would initially be lower compared to starch, over time they would climb to incredible numbers for me, and my fasting numbers went to hell also. I'd basically become a diabetic in the course of about two weeks, and this happened during two different experiments. Something clearly was going wrong. Weight went unchanged, total protein was kept constant, micros were actually higher compared to my starch diet. Was it poor liver function? Too much serotonin? Candida? I never went with plain sugar and supplements to make sure it wasn't something with the food itself, but even if that worked I'd rather just eat starch rather than relying on a load of supplements. In both instances, I swapped some starch back in and things normalized after another couple of weeks. Some people have spectacular results with sugar though, I won't deny that. Ideally, I think a healthy person should be able to consume copious amounts of either starch or fruit, at least over the short term, and if they can't, there's probably an issue somewhere.

It's difficult to use epidemological evidence to support the consumption of starch though, due to the large population size (in China for example, which guarantees a certain number of centenarians), varying levels of adaptation (an absence of wheat for example, and adaptations for superior glucose tolerance among certain populations), high levels of physical activity, consumption of adaptogens, plant fibers and other herbs (tobacco and similar stimulants). There's certainly evidence that grains lead to osteoporosis and mineral depletion: both modern work by WAP, as well as antiquated evidence, as with Egyptians who suffered from degenerative diseases likely linked to a lack of animal products in their diets (deemed as "healthy.")

I think there's ample evidence to suggest a diet overly reliant on grains can lead to issues. That said, despite the evidence that fructose can benefit mineral balance, it doesn't seem uncommon when I look at the fruitarian forums to see people struggling with dental issues. I know some people here stated that their teeth improved after switching to higher amounts of sugar, but I suspect that in many of those cases, fat soluble vitamins were also being supplemented. WAP found that even in grain heavy cultures, sufficient fat solubles made dental issues and osteoporosis almost moot. Of course, most of us aren't about to rely entirely on fruit or starch in our diets. Some people thrive with no animal products, but I think the ideal diet does include them, at least to a small degree, if not significantly.

So all of that is really just a long way of saying that as good as something looks on paper, we're still left trying to find what really works best for ourselves at any given time. I'd still like to make a diet higher in sugar work for myself, but it's not in the cards at the moment. For someone that's not doing well on a starch or sugar heavy diet, it's worth experimenting with the other to see how they fair.

 

[DaveFoster]

I think there's ample evidence to suggest a diet overly reliant on grains can lead to issues. That said, despite the evidence that fructose can benefit mineral balance, it doesn't seem uncommon when I look at the fruitarian forums to see people struggling with dental issues. I know some people here stated that their teeth improved after switching to higher amounts of sugar, but I suspect that in many of those cases, fat soluble vitamins were also being supplemented. WAP found that even in grain heavy cultures, sufficient fat solubles made dental issues and osteoporosis almost moot. Of course, most of us aren't about to rely entirely on fruit or starch in our diets. Some people thrive with no animal products, but I think the ideal diet does include them, at least to a small degree, if not significantly.

Fruitarians also eat dried fruit and added table sugar; further, fruitarians (and most fringe diet groups) often suffer from health problems, which drives them to improve their health, which could likely indicate an underlying metabolic problem (thyroid insufficiency for example). Hypothyroidism would not generate adequate CO2 to promote the restoration of teeth.

I think it's telling that caffeine increases sugar cravings and diminishes starch cravings. The metabolic "quota" for consuming sucrose would be higher. For myself, I crave starch when stressed and hypometabolic.

 

[Peater Piper]

Fruitarians also eat dried fruit and added table sugar; further, fruitarians (and most fringe diet groups) often suffer from health problems, which drives them to improve their health, which could likely indicate an underlying metabolic problem (thyroid insufficiency for example). Hypothyroidism would not generate adequate CO2 to promote the restoration of teeth.

I think it's telling that caffeine increases sugar cravings and diminishes starch cravings. The metabolic "quota" for consuming sucrose would be higher. For myself, I crave starch when stressed and hypometabolic.

Wouldn't the bolded part apply to most Peatarians as well?

I don't often crave starch, it just seems to work better for me as a staple food source since I generally prefer a lower fat diet. I rarely get cravings actually, only if I've gone too long between meals and I'm starving, in which case something sweet usually sounds good. By the end of my sugar experiments the thought of anything sweet made me nauseous. A serving of fruit at each meal or as a snack works better in my case. I've never had cravings from caffeine either, but I doubt I've ever been above 500 mg in a day, and I don't drink coffee if I'm not well fed. Actually, now that I think of it, caffeine + a lot of sugar make for a piss poor combo in my case as well. I get adrenaline. It doesn't happen when I mix coffee with mostly starch or fat. *shrug*

 

[DaveFoster]

Wouldn't the bolded part apply to most Peatarians as well?

I don't often crave starch, it just seems to work better for me as a staple food source since I generally prefer a lower fat diet. I rarely get cravings actually, only if I've gone too long between meals and I'm starving, in which case something sweet usually sounds good. By the end of my sugar experiments the thought of anything sweet made me nauseous. A serving of fruit at each meal or as a snack works better in my case. I've never had cravings from caffeine either, but I doubt I've ever been above 500 mg in a day, and I don't drink coffee if I'm not well fed. Actually, now that I think of it, caffeine + a lot of sugar make for a piss poor combo in my case as well. I get adrenaline. It doesn't happen when I mix coffee with mostly starch or fat. *shrug*

It would; it's been mentioned on Peatarian that people who undergo "peating" aren't very healthy. I think IslandGirl commented that she would never want to date a peatarian.

It's interesting that you mention caffeine in the context of saturated fat; if I recall, pboy mentioned that an intake of fat (along with sugar) sends signals that the liver has enough fuel to maintain glycogen, and therefore can have a very strong anti-stress effect. I've experienced this myself, and I've mentioned it in the second episode of the Foster Your Health podcast.