Does excessive histamine lower copper and ceruloplasmin?

[Ippodrom47]

No I haven’t gotten my hands on MB yet. It works very similarly to copper in the mitochondria, so it’s an interesting compound. It likely does (partially) compensate for low copper bioavailability.

Still trying to figure out what is the limiting factor, that causes the copper dysregulation. I think it’s related to thyroid/adrenal dysfunction, as T3 is needed for copper utilization and ceruloplasmin synthesis, but so many things can dysregulate that system, with high RT3 or suboptimal T3 levels.

By the way, does pork cause the same symptoms? From what I know, it's lower in zinc than beef. Are you able to eat large portions of chicken with no issues at all?

 

[youngsinatra]

Hey @Ippodrom47
I just read this paper on zinc crushing cortisol levels. Check it out on scihub!

Zinc acutely and temporarily inhibits adrenal cortisol secretion in humans. A preliminary report - PubMed

Hypo- and hyperzincemia has been reported to cause alterations in the adrenal secretion. To determine the acute effect of zinc on cortisol levels, we studied 27 normal individuals of both sexes aged 20-27 y after a 12-h fast. The tests were initiated at 7:00 AM when an antecubital vein was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I have also read that you too respond very unfavorably to magnesium. Are we possibly prone to low cortisol?

 

[Ippodrom47]

Hey @Ippodrom47
I just read this paper on zinc crushing cortisol levels. Check it out on scihub!

Zinc acutely and temporarily inhibits adrenal cortisol secretion in humans. A preliminary report - PubMed

Hypo- and hyperzincemia has been reported to cause alterations in the adrenal secretion. To determine the acute effect of zinc on cortisol levels, we studied 27 normal individuals of both sexes aged 20-27 y after a 12-h fast. The tests were initiated at 7:00 AM when an antecubital vein was...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I have also read that you too respond very unfavorably to magnesium. Are we possibly prone to low cortisol?

That's a very interesting paper, thanks!
However, they administered very high doses of zinc to the participants (25, 37.5, and 50 mg of zinc) - do you react badly to typical servings of beef or lamb (aroung 3-4 oz or 85-110 grams)? With chicken and pork it should be better, as their zinc content is lower.
I do react badly to magnesium, especially when taking for several days in a row and in the morning. 100-200 Mg in the morning will make me extremely tired, freezing cold and spacey. I guess, it's the morning when cortisol is of the essence, so lowering it acutely during that time can have negative side effects.
My morning blood test revealed normal cortisol, though, about mid-range. I also react badly to goitrogens and high-ioidine foods even in low quantities. My selenium intake is good.

 

[youngsinatra]

That's a very interesting paper, thanks!
However, they administered very high doses of zinc to the participants (25, 37.5, and 50 mg of zinc) - do you react badly to typical servings of beef or lamb (aroung 3-4 oz or 85-110 grams)? With chicken and pork it should be better, as their zinc content is lower.
I do react badly to magnesium, especially when taking for several days in a row and in the morning. 100-200 Mg in the morning will make me extremely tired, freezing cold and spacey. I guess, it's the morning when cortisol is of the essence, so lowering it acutely during that time can have negative side effects.
My morning blood test revealed normal cortisol, though, about mid-range. I also react badly to goitrogens and high-ioidine foods even in low quantities. My selenium intake is good.

Yeah my serum cortisol is also normal, my DHEA is on the higher end which is a good marker for adrenal hormonal status and higher levels can actually imply hyperadrenalism.

Maybe it’s rather due to some other factor like the NMDA inhibitory effect of magnesium, which zinc can also cause.

 

[Ippodrom47]

Yeah my serum cortisol is also normal, my DHEA is on the higher end which is a good marker for adrenal hormonal status and higher levels can actually imply hyperadrenalism.

Maybe it’s rather due to some other factor like the NMDA inhibitory effect of magnesium, which zinc can also cause.

Yes, I've come to the conclusion that it's NDMA-related stuff. However, the low copper and high serum zinc is still an issue.

Would a typical 3 oz (85 grams) serving of beef cause you symptoms? In my case, it does, especially when eaten several days in a row, it gets progressively worse.

Didn't you overtrain at some point in the past or had any experience that could lead to adrenal issues?

 

[youngsinatra]

Yes, I've come to the conclusion that it's NDMA-related stuff. However, the low copper and high serum zinc is still an issue.

Would a typical 3 oz (85 grams) serving of beef cause you symptoms? In my case, it does, especially when eaten several days in a row, it gets progressively worse.

Didn't you overtrain at some point in the past or had any experience that could lead to adrenal issues?

Yes I cannot handle even small amounts of red meat.

I did not. I did not really exercise at all in the last 2 years. I did workout 4-5 times a week prior to that.

 

[Ippodrom47]

Yes I cannot handle even small amounts of red meat.

I did not. I did not really exercise at all in the last 2 years. I did workout 4-5 times a week prior to that.

Thanks! Can you tie the onset of the problem to anything? Mold, food poisoning, etc?
Have you looked into folate deficiency?
I've noticed that I'm doing better when my MMC kicks in between meals. However, eating or drinking too many probiotic foods gives me what some people describe as lactic acidosis.
I most certainly do have compromised gut flora but it's hard to determine which comes first - bacteria overgrowth leading to slow metabolism via inflammation or sluggish metabolism causing ineffective MMC and thus bacteria dysbiosis.

 

[youngsinatra]

Thanks! Can you tie the onset of the problem to anything? Mold, food poisoning, etc?
Have you looked into folate deficiency?
I've noticed that I'm doing better when my MMC kicks in between meals. However, eating or drinking too many probiotic foods gives me what some people describe as lactic acidosis.
I most certainly do have compromised gut flora but it's hard to determine which comes first - bacteria overgrowth leading to slow metabolism via inflammation or sluggish metabolism causing ineffective MMC and thus bacteria dysbiosis.

I think it’s due to subclinical hypothyroidism that is causing a functional B2 (FAD) deficiency. I have read a lot on the work of Greg-Russel Jones about this and I have the classic signs. Subclinical hypothyroidism, elevated TSH, riboflavin deficiency symptoms despite supplementation, elevated serum B12 and B6, indicative of poor cellular utilization and build-up, as FAD is needed for activation of those. Functional B2 impairs methylation and that can disturb copper metabolism too.

I know someone that got his low ceruloplasmin (18mg/dl) to high levels (42mg/dl) in two months by supplementing 10mg B2 per day and he apparently could activate it properly. (most cannot)

I anecdotally spoke to someone on reddit that took 400mg B2 and still had low FAD on blood work after 3 months.

I think the high serum zinc has something to do with B6 toxicity / lack of cellular utilization/metabolization, due to low FAD.

The only thing that improves my state of health significantly is taking thyroid and supplementing moderate amounts of B2, methylfolate and low dose biotin.

GRJ recommends iodide and selenite for thyroid, but I tried this and my hypothyroidism got so much worse.

Poor thyroid function + impaired methylation also impairs liver function and methylation dependent phospatidylcholine synthesis that thins the bile and causes cholestasis.

 

[Daniel North]

Hi! Zinc - 22.6 (reference range 10.7-18.5)
Copper - 7.8 (10.99-21.98)
Ceruloplasmin - 181 (200-600)

No Wilson's disease genes. Urine copper was on the lower side last year. I get plenty of copper in my diet, easily hitting the RDA or more.

Have you tried eating beef liver?
It is the food with the most copper and retinol. The building blocks for ceruloplasmin.

 

[Ippodrom47]

I think it’s due to subclinical hypothyroidism that is causing a functional B2 (FAD) deficiency. I have read a lot on the work of Greg-Russel Jones about this and I have the classic signs. Subclinical hypothyroidism, elevated TSH, riboflavin deficiency symptoms despite supplementation, elevated serum B12 and B6, indicative of poor cellular utilization and build-up, as FAD is needed for activation of those. Functional B2 impairs methylation and that can disturb copper metabolism too.

I know someone that got his low ceruloplasmin (18mg/dl) to high levels (42mg/dl) in two months by supplementing 10mg B2 per day and he apparently could activate it properly. (most cannot)

I anecdotally spoke to someone on reddit that took 400mg B2 and still had low FAD on blood work after 3 months.

I think the high serum zinc has something to do with B6 toxicity / lack of cellular utilization/metabolization, due to low FAD.

The only thing that improves my state of health significantly is taking thyroid and supplementing moderate amounts of B2, methylfolate and low dose biotin.

GRJ recommends iodide and selenite for thyroid, but I tried this and my hypothyroidism got so much worse.

Poor thyroid function + impaired methylation also impairs liver function and methylation dependent phospatidylcholine synthesis that thins the bile and causes cholestasis.

Thanks so much! If you take B2 and methylfolate, do you still react badly to red meat? Did you have those symptoms your whole life, even as a child? Were you able to tolerate red meat at some point?

Have you tried eating beef liver?
It is the food with the most copper and retinol. The building blocks for ceruloplasmin.

Honestly, amost all my health woes started after overdosing on vitamin A from too much liver. They were apparent (dry eyes, flaky skin, cracks on fingers, fatigue and brain fog, low WBC), but I didn't make the connection at the time and "finished" it by eating lots of carrots and getting carotenemia.

 

[youngsinatra]

Thanks so much! If you take B2 and methylfolate, do you still react badly to red meat? Did you have those symptoms your whole life, even as a child? Were you able to tolerate red meat at some point?



Honestly, amost all my health woes started after overdosing on vitamin A from too much liver. They were apparent (dry eyes, flaky skin, cracks on fingers, fatigue and brain fog, low WBC), but I didn't make the connection at the time and "finished" it by eating lots of carrots and getting carotenemia.

Unfortunately still not tolerating red meat with it yet, but my serum copper and ceruloplasmin have been slowly increasing with thyroid + B2.

I recently doubled my thyroid dose because my free T3 levels have still been not in the optimal range, but I‘m positive that on my next blood test it will be optimal.

T3 stimulates hepatic copper mobilization and ceruloplasmin synthesis.

 

[Ippodrom47]

Unfortunately still not tolerating red meat with it yet, but my serum copper and ceruloplasmin have been slowly increasing with thyroid + B2.

I recently doubled my thyroid dose because my free T3 levels have still been not in the optimal range, but I‘m positive that on my next blood test it will be optimal.

T3 stimulates hepatic copper mobilization and ceruloplasmin synthesis.

Thanks again! Am I correct in assuming that you don't correlate the first onset of symptoms with a specific event (mold exposure, stress, food poisoning, viral illnesses)? I feel like I'm going in the wrong direction by addressing the multitude of intolerances and symptoms instead of finding the actual cause whatever it might be.

 

[Daniel North]

Honestly, amost all my health woes started after overdosing on vitamin A from too much liver. They were apparent (dry eyes, flaky skin, cracks on fingers, fatigue and brain fog, low WBC), but I didn't make the connection at the time and "finished" it by eating lots of carrots and getting carotenemia.

How much liver did you eat, and over how long time span?

 

[youngsinatra]

Thanks again! Am I correct in assuming that you don't correlate the first onset of symptoms with a specific event (mold exposure, stress, food poisoning, viral illnesses)? I feel like I'm going in the wrong direction by addressing the multitude of intolerances and symptoms instead of finding the actual cause whatever it might be.

I did develop a severe health crisis after a year of taking big doses of supplemental vitamin A (~50K IUs of retinylpalmitate) and simultaneously eating an oz. (or a bit more) per day of beef liver in that same year.

Prior to that, I could and I did eat 800g of beef a day for a couple of years without any problem. Also my thyroid labs were perfect, almost hyper before that year. My physique was very good and lean.

Everything went downhill after the vitamin A toxicity. Liver problems, hypothyroidism, neurological issues set in afterwards.

 

[peter88]

Would a typical 3 oz (85 grams) serving of beef cause you symptoms? In my case, it does, especially when eaten several days in a row, it gets progressively worse.

What symptoms do you get from beef/red meat? I’m thinking I have very similar issues as you guys. Red meat progressively makes me colder and colder and my sleep worse and worse.

 

[Ippodrom47]

How much liver did you eat, and over how long time span?

I think it was around 4-5 oz (150 grams) maybe or more for a meal, several times a week, over maybe a couple of months. Also, canned cod liver used generously as a spread for sandwiches.That's when my symptoms first started. After that, it got worse. Blood tests started showing low WBC on a regular basis (I had to consult a hematologist to exclude blood cancer). I was always brain fogged, fatigued and almost had derealization.

After ditching the liver, I unknowingly started eating lots of beta carotene foods and that "killed" me completely a couple months later. What I'm saying it was very very bad. The most excruciating fatigue, toxic feeling in the head, very cold, dry skin, inflamed gut. I was yellow orange myself.

Then I didn't eat my favorite carrots for a couple of days and felt really good. That's when I deduced it was vitamin A toxicity. However, the thyroid issues still persist. I've done several beta carotene blood tests and it somehow keeps growing as if my thyroid refuses to process it. I also can't eat lots of high iodine foods, with Brazil nuts for selenium or not, it doesn't matter. I immediately get brain fog and dry eyes and become hypo by symptoms.

What symptoms do you get from beef/red meat? I’m thinking I have very similar issues as you guys. Red meat progressively makes me colder and colder and my sleep worse and worse.

Kinda hypo stuff. Fatigued, very sensitive to lots of food and drinks, bladder very sensitive and it feels inflamed, mood swings, inexplicably cold. Once again, in my case this reaction is a symptom of a bigger metabolism problem, as is the high zinc and low copper levels.

 

[youngsinatra]

I think it was around 4-5 oz (150 grams) maybe or more for a meal, several times a week, over maybe a couple of months. Also, canned cod liver used generously as a spread for sandwiches.That's when my symptoms first started. After that, it got worse. Blood tests started showing low WBC on a regular basis (I had to consult a hematologist to exclude blood cancer). I was always brain fogged, fatigued and almost had derealization.

After ditching the liver, I unknowingly started eating lots of beta carotene foods and that "killed" me completely a couple months later. What I'm saying it was very very bad. The most excruciating fatigue, toxic feeling in the head, very cold, dry skin, inflamed gut. I was yellow orange myself.

Then I didn't eat my favorite carrots for a couple of days and felt really good. That's when I deduced it was vitamin A toxicity. However, the thyroid issues still persist. I've done several beta carotene blood tests and it somehow keeps growing as if my thyroid refuses to process it. I also can't eat lots of high iodine foods, with Brazil nuts for selenium or not, it doesn't matter. I immediately get brain fog and dry eyes and become hypo by symptoms.


Kinda hypo stuff. Fatigued, very sensitive to lots of food and drinks, bladder very sensitive and it feels inflamed, mood swings, inexplicably cold. Once again, in my case this reaction is a symptom of a bigger metabolism problem, as is the high zinc and low copper levels.

Have you considered taking thyroid?

 

[Ippodrom47]

Have you considered taking thyroid?

When my free t4 and free t3 levels were low, with normal tsh (1-2), my doc wanted to put me on levothyroxine (t4). I waited for a bit, then retested, and both t4 and t3 were low normal and have remained so ever since. All other docs discouraged me from taking thyroid. As I understand it, t4 isn't going to be a solution if the body can't efficiently convert it to active t3, which can be seen in overtraining or high stress environment. T3 isn't available in my country.
I think we're generally in the same boat - high vitamin A intake in the past, which led to a range of metabolic issues.

 

[youngsinatra]

When my free t4 and free t3 levels were low, with normal tsh (1-2), my doc wanted to put me on levothyroxine (t4). I waited for a bit, then retested, and both t4 and t3 were low normal and have remained so ever since. All other docs discouraged me from taking thyroid. As I understand it, t4 isn't going to be a solution if the body can't efficiently convert it to active t3, which can be seen in overtraining or high stress environment. T3 isn't available in my country.
I think we're generally in the same boat - high vitamin A intake in the past, which led to a range of metabolic issues.

Where are you located?

For some pure T4 works. If your free T4 is low-ish, your free T3 is automatically going to be low too. A conversion issue would be a situation with high-ish FT4 and low-ish FT3. A reverse T3 would be good, to see if stress is causing your hypothyroidism.

 

[Ippodrom47]

Where are you located?

For some pure T4 works. If your free T4 is low-ish, your free T3 is automatically going to be low too. A conversion issue would be a situation with high-ish FT4 and low-ish FT3. A reverse T3 would be good, to see if stress is causing your hypothyroidism.

I'm in Russia, and t3 wasn't available long before the war due to apparently low demand. If my free t4 is in the middle range, but reverse t3 would turn out high, would that mean I need to reduce stress levels? Blood adrenaline and noradrenaline were both okay the last time I checked.