Copper should be dominant over Zinc for optimal health?

Gustav3Y

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It is said so, that is why I asked him.
Then also think about the many people who solve histamine issues with Vitamin C's "copper lowering" abilities.
Why lowering matters not for histamines in certain people would be interesting to know.
 

PaRa

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It is said so, that is why I asked him.
Then also think about the many people who solve histamine issues with Vitamin C's "copper lowering" abilities.
Why lowering matters not for histamines in certain people would be interesting to know.

Whole food vitamin c = contains copper and anti histamine effect, you lower histamine lvls over time

ascorbic acid = anti histamine on the moment but lowers body copper so you end with higher histamine lvls over time
 

youngsinatra

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Whole food vitamin c = contains copper and anti histamine effect, you lower histamine lvls over time

ascorbic acid = anti histamine on the moment but lowers body copper so you end with higher histamine lvls over time
Exactly. I find WF vitamin C complexes very potent, almost too potent above 400mg a day. But surely someone with histamine intolerance should reap benefit from 800mg and above.
 

redsun

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It is said so, that is why I asked him.
Then also think about the many people who solve histamine issues with Vitamin C's "copper lowering" abilities.
Why lowering matters not for histamines in certain people would be interesting to know.
Vitamin C is kind of complicated and may not help histamine directly but because vitamin C is a cofactor for synthesizing norepinephrine (NE) and epinephrine (E) (which via their receptors inhibit histamine release). The alpha adrenergic receptors have more affinity to norepinephrine while beta receptors have greater affinity for epinephrine. Alpha-1 receptors increase vasoconstriction in the nose, throat, and sinuses, opening them up. This is mechanism of action of decongestants. Beta-2 receptors inhibit histamine release from mast cells. This is mainly how vitamin C is still antihistamine even though it is anti-copper at super high doses for long periods of time.

Reducing excess histamine is not just about reducing total histamine, probably for most it is partly a manifestation of low adrenaline activity (especially due to low norepinephrine and epinephrine, but also low cortisol). Same goes for copper. Yes it is needed for DAO but its also needed to make NE/E from dopamine via dopamine-beta hydroxylase (DBH). DBH is a copper and vitamin C dependent enzyme.

EDIT: Also to add... Zinc does not chelate copper out of the body. It prevents its absorption at high doses due to MT. This is how it causes copper deficiency. It actually takes a long time to manifest as the body will try to increase copper retention as levels get low and we dont lose much copper daily. Its also dependent on the individuals copper status as well and if they have much stored in the liver or not.

Only certain medications and amino acids like histidine and methionine (and perhaps others) chelate copper out of the tissues and excrete it from the body. These substances are dangerous to use chronically without good reason and the depletion is not slow and its dependent on the dose you give. Histidine is quite helpful for digestion but if you take too much it chelates copper and zinc out of the body and can cause other problems until levels are restored.
 
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InChristAlone

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i don’t really know, cause I’m scared of high doses cause it’s said it lowers Ceruloplasmin and copper.

„normal doses“ of vitamin c do almost nothing
I gave you a scientific explanation yesterday why that is false. Vitamin C is needed to absorb copper. "Ascorbate has now been found to be critical in the absorption of copper in our intestines because it is the redox molecule used by the plasma membrane redox enzyme duodenal cytochrome b561 (DCytb) that was discovered only in 2006." see below for full explanation
 

InChristAlone

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This is from the scientist Doris Loh:

"There appears to be a lot of misinformation surrounding ascorbic acid, Vitamin C and its effects on ceruloplasmin and copper utilization.

To truly understand the relationship between these important elements, let’s find out what ceruloplasmin actually does. Some believe Vitamin C destroys ceruloplasmin. Is that true? Ceruloplasmin has a standard redox potential of between +490 mV to +580 mV [1]. That high reduction potential means it will OXIDIZE ascorbate, which has lower reduction potential of only +282 mV. (Remember, electrons flow from lower, negative reduction potential to higher, positive reduction potentials.)

That is correct, ceruloplasmin actually destroys Vitamin C by oxidizing it. This is the reason why using oral contraceptives has negative health effects. The use of oral contraceptives raises serum ceruloplasmin, creating pro-oxidant effects that results in the reduction of not only ascorbic acid, but also the reduction of epinephrine, melatonin, serotonin and other amines [2, 4]. This reduction of important neuronal substrates is the reason why excess ceruloplasmin is linked to neurodegenerative diseases, as well as other neurological disorders including schizophrenia and obsessive compulsive disorders {3. 4, 5]

Is ceruloplasmin bad? Of course not. Afterall, ceruloplasmin has been observed to be responsible for the mobilisation, transport and homeostasis of copper, ferroxidase and amino oxidase; it is also an acute phase protein in the inflammatory response pathway. Ceruloplasmin is found to be deficient in Wilson's disease, an autosomal recessive trait with a defect in copper metabolism. Ceruloplasmin however, catalyses the oxidation of a great variety of both organic and inorganic substances, including amines like p-phenylenediamine, dopamines and serotonin, as well as catechol derivatives, aminophenols and Fe(II).

To truly understand why we see adverse health effects associated with excess ceruloplasmin, we need to take a look at the close cousin of ceruloplasmin, ascorbate oxidase.

Ceruloplasmin is found in all mammals and birds whereas ascorbate oxidase are found in higher plants. They are both blue oxidases that are believed to have evolved from a common ancestral gene. For the longest time, the biological role of ascorbate oxidase is not clear, but it is understood to be responsible for the oxidation of ascorbate [1]. Scientists could not understand why ascorbic acid, being produced by plants for protection, would have the need ascorbate oxidase, which oxidizes ascorbate. In 2013, a study was published explaining that ascorbate oxidase actually has the role of modulating both ascorbate and oxygen content, thereby regulating the redox balance in extracellular matrix in plants, in a fashion not dissimilar to the mechanism of prolyl hydroxylases/ Hypoxia Inducible Factors (HIF) in animals [6].

If that is the case, since animals do not have ascorbate oxidase, then could ceruloplasmin act in the same capacity as ascorbate oxidase? I don’t believe ceruloplasmin’s main function in animals is similar to that of ascorbate oxidase simply because animals and humans have evolved extremely efficient processes in the control of hypoxic conditions. However, ceruloplasmin does behave in a similar manner as ascorbate oxidase in that it oxidizes ascorbate. A study found two copper atoms in ceruloplasmin to be able to oxidize up 560 ascorbate molecules [7]. When cupric oxide (II) oxidizes ascorbate, taking an electron from ascorbate, it becomes reduced and forms cuprous oxide Cu(I).

Is there any benefit in the reduction of cupric oxide Cu (II) to cuprous oxide (CU(I) by ascorbate?

Cupric oxide is considered to be fully oxidized and is stable, while cuprous oxide is in an active state, and most considers it as unstable and dangerous. Now, what you may not know about cuprous oxide will surprise you.

The antioxidant Glutathione, are thiols. Thiols are biomolecules that can be oxidized by copper-catalyzed processes. The ratio between reduced and oxidized glutathione functions as intracellular redox buffer. This redox buffer can modulate the activity of thiol dependent enzymes with cysteine residues that are also sensitive to changes in redox balance. Glutathione is bound tightly to the thiol group of cysteine forming polymers, and this GSH-Cu(I) complex is responsible for the transfer of copper into enzyme active sites [8]. The ratio of cupric and cuprous oxide, therefore has important implications for the optimal functioning of glutathione.

In addition to the reduction of cupric oxide, ascorbate has now been found to be critical in the absorption of copper in our intestines because it is the redox molecule used by the plasma membrane redox enzyme duodenal cytochrome b561 (DCytb) that was discovered only in 2006. All previous studies on ascorbate’s effects on copper utilization need to be re-evaluated as a result of the newly discovered functions observed in Dcytb in copper utilization.


All processes and elements in our bodies are tightly regulated. The reduction and oxidation of copper ions is no exception. The balance between these elements is critical in the maintenance of optimal health. Redox balance is the foundation upon which you build your house of health. Ascorbic acid is a Redox balancer, and this is the reason why high ceruloplasmin levels are associated with neurodegenerative diseases, as well as diabetes.

This study in 2015 [9] found serum ceruloplasmin as a predictor for the progression of diabetic nephropathy. Excess ceruloplasmin will act as pro-oxidant under conditions of severe oxidative stress as ceruloplasmin oxidizes ascorbate, which our body uses to balance Redox.

To find out more about how ascorbic acid, Vitamin C acts as a Redox balancer in our bodies, read this amazing article.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vitamin-c-mitochondria-part-1-redox-5g-world-doris-loh/ "





References:
[1] FEBS Press
[2] http://medind.nic.in/iaf/t04/i1/iaft04i1p102.pdf
[3] Ceruloplasmin in neurodegenerative diseases - PubMed
[4] Comparative Study of Blood Ceruloplasmin in Schizophrenia and Other Disorders
[5] High ceruloplasmin levels are associated with obsessive compulsive disorder: a case control study
[6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3676494/pdf/psb-8-e23213.pdf
[7] DEFINE_ME
[8] Interaction of copper with cysteine: stability of cuprous complexes and catalytic role of cupric ions in anaerobic thiol oxidation - PubMed
[9] Serum Ceruloplasmin Level as a Predictor for the Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy in Korean Men with Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus
 

redsun

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This is from the scientist Doris Loh:

"There appears to be a lot of misinformation surrounding ascorbic acid, Vitamin C and its effects on ceruloplasmin and copper utilization.

To truly understand the relationship between these important elements, let’s find out what ceruloplasmin actually does. Some believe Vitamin C destroys ceruloplasmin. Is that true? Ceruloplasmin has a standard redox potential of between +490 mV to +580 mV [1]. That high reduction potential means it will OXIDIZE ascorbate, which has lower reduction potential of only +282 mV. (Remember, electrons flow from lower, negative reduction potential to higher, positive reduction potentials.)

That is correct, ceruloplasmin actually destroys Vitamin C by oxidizing it. This is the reason why using oral contraceptives has negative health effects. The use of oral contraceptives raises serum ceruloplasmin, creating pro-oxidant effects that results in the reduction of not only ascorbic acid, but also the reduction of epinephrine, melatonin, serotonin and other amines [2, 4]. This reduction of important neuronal substrates is the reason why excess ceruloplasmin is linked to neurodegenerative diseases, as well as other neurological disorders including schizophrenia and obsessive compulsive disorders {3. 4, 5]

Is ceruloplasmin bad? Of course not. Afterall, ceruloplasmin has been observed to be responsible for the mobilisation, transport and homeostasis of copper, ferroxidase and amino oxidase; it is also an acute phase protein in the inflammatory response pathway. Ceruloplasmin is found to be deficient in Wilson's disease, an autosomal recessive trait with a defect in copper metabolism. Ceruloplasmin however, catalyses the oxidation of a great variety of both organic and inorganic substances, including amines like p-phenylenediamine, dopamines and serotonin, as well as catechol derivatives, aminophenols and Fe(II).

To truly understand why we see adverse health effects associated with excess ceruloplasmin, we need to take a look at the close cousin of ceruloplasmin, ascorbate oxidase.

Ceruloplasmin is found in all mammals and birds whereas ascorbate oxidase are found in higher plants. They are both blue oxidases that are believed to have evolved from a common ancestral gene. For the longest time, the biological role of ascorbate oxidase is not clear, but it is understood to be responsible for the oxidation of ascorbate [1]. Scientists could not understand why ascorbic acid, being produced by plants for protection, would have the need ascorbate oxidase, which oxidizes ascorbate. In 2013, a study was published explaining that ascorbate oxidase actually has the role of modulating both ascorbate and oxygen content, thereby regulating the redox balance in extracellular matrix in plants, in a fashion not dissimilar to the mechanism of prolyl hydroxylases/ Hypoxia Inducible Factors (HIF) in animals [6].

If that is the case, since animals do not have ascorbate oxidase, then could ceruloplasmin act in the same capacity as ascorbate oxidase? I don’t believe ceruloplasmin’s main function in animals is similar to that of ascorbate oxidase simply because animals and humans have evolved extremely efficient processes in the control of hypoxic conditions. However, ceruloplasmin does behave in a similar manner as ascorbate oxidase in that it oxidizes ascorbate. A study found two copper atoms in ceruloplasmin to be able to oxidize up 560 ascorbate molecules [7]. When cupric oxide (II) oxidizes ascorbate, taking an electron from ascorbate, it becomes reduced and forms cuprous oxide Cu(I).

Is there any benefit in the reduction of cupric oxide Cu (II) to cuprous oxide (CU(I) by ascorbate?

Cupric oxide is considered to be fully oxidized and is stable, while cuprous oxide is in an active state, and most considers it as unstable and dangerous. Now, what you may not know about cuprous oxide will surprise you.

The antioxidant Glutathione, are thiols. Thiols are biomolecules that can be oxidized by copper-catalyzed processes. The ratio between reduced and oxidized glutathione functions as intracellular redox buffer. This redox buffer can modulate the activity of thiol dependent enzymes with cysteine residues that are also sensitive to changes in redox balance. Glutathione is bound tightly to the thiol group of cysteine forming polymers, and this GSH-Cu(I) complex is responsible for the transfer of copper into enzyme active sites [8]. The ratio of cupric and cuprous oxide, therefore has important implications for the optimal functioning of glutathione.

In addition to the reduction of cupric oxide, ascorbate has now been found to be critical in the absorption of copper in our intestines because it is the redox molecule used by the plasma membrane redox enzyme duodenal cytochrome b561 (DCytb) that was discovered only in 2006. All previous studies on ascorbate’s effects on copper utilization need to be re-evaluated as a result of the newly discovered functions observed in Dcytb in copper utilization.


All processes and elements in our bodies are tightly regulated. The reduction and oxidation of copper ions is no exception. The balance between these elements is critical in the maintenance of optimal health. Redox balance is the foundation upon which you build your house of health. Ascorbic acid is a Redox balancer, and this is the reason why high ceruloplasmin levels are associated with neurodegenerative diseases, as well as diabetes.

This study in 2015 [9] found serum ceruloplasmin as a predictor for the progression of diabetic nephropathy. Excess ceruloplasmin will act as pro-oxidant under conditions of severe oxidative stress as ceruloplasmin oxidizes ascorbate, which our body uses to balance Redox.

To find out more about how ascorbic acid, Vitamin C acts as a Redox balancer in our bodies, read this amazing article.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/vitamin-c-mitochondria-part-1-redox-5g-world-doris-loh/ "





References:
[1] FEBS Press
[2] http://medind.nic.in/iaf/t04/i1/iaft04i1p102.pdf
[3] Ceruloplasmin in neurodegenerative diseases - PubMed
[4] Comparative Study of Blood Ceruloplasmin in Schizophrenia and Other Disorders
[5] High ceruloplasmin levels are associated with obsessive compulsive disorder: a case control study
[6] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3676494/pdf/psb-8-e23213.pdf
[7] DEFINE_ME
[8] Interaction of copper with cysteine: stability of cuprous complexes and catalytic role of cupric ions in anaerobic thiol oxidation - PubMed
[9] Serum Ceruloplasmin Level as a Predictor for the Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy in Korean Men with Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus

Its funny I was literally just about to repost this which you posted in another thread. Very informative post.
 

Gustav3Y

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Alpha-1 receptors increase vasoconstriction in the nose, throat, and sinuses, opening them up. This is mechanism of action of decongestants.
Yes, very interesting that you have mentioned that, I was using a decongestant as per the surgeon instructions and it contains ephedrine and naphazoline, which work by the mechanisms you have mentioned. There is also of course hydrocortisone.
 

InChristAlone

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Whole food vitamin c = contains copper and anti histamine effect, you lower histamine lvls over time

ascorbic acid = anti histamine on the moment but lowers body copper so you end with higher histamine lvls over time
I have been taking ascorbic acid at 4 gram doses for at least 4 yrs. My histamine levels if anything seems low when at the beginning of using it they seemed high. Taking histidine helps me. I don't flush from niacin at doses of 200 mg. My son who appears to be high histamine flushes from as little as 70 mg. And it also doesn't appear to have lowered copper. I tan pretty well being that I'm fair skinned, and have only seen one gray hair on my head at 36. While everyone is getting the flu I haven't been sick at all in over 2 yrs. Ascorbic acid is a very important vitamin in these times.
 

InChristAlone

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Its funny I was literally just about to repost this which you posted in another thread. Very informative post.
Glad it was informative. Doris Loh has helped many people thru covid symptoms by recommending ascorbic acid.
 

PaRa

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I have been taking ascorbic acid at 4 gram doses for at least 4 yrs. My histamine levels if anything seems low when at the beginning of using it they seemed high. Taking histidine helps me. I don't flush from niacin at doses of 200 mg. My son who appears to be high histamine flushes from as little as 70 mg. And it also doesn't appear to have lowered copper. I tan pretty well being that I'm fair skinned, and have only seen one gray hair on my head at 36. While everyone is getting the flu I haven't been sick at all in over 2 yrs. Ascorbic acid is a very important vitamin in these times.

not being sick AT ALL (even one day of sore throat runny nose etc) is just a symptom of being low histamine


my dad low histamine never get sick
my mom higher histamine do get sick sometimes a year but it’s never bad at all

tho my mom just fall sick for 3 days of sore throa, fact is that the times my dad get sick, better call emergencit’s and whatever bc it’s a big thing (infarctus, or whatever)
 

Motif

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I have been taking ascorbic acid at 4 gram doses for at least 4 yrs. My histamine levels if anything seems low when at the beginning of using it they seemed high. Taking histidine helps me. I don't flush from niacin at doses of 200 mg. My son who appears to be high histamine flushes from as little as 70 mg. And it also doesn't appear to have lowered copper. I tan pretty well being that I'm fair skinned, and have only seen one gray hair on my head at 36. While everyone is getting the flu I haven't been sick at all in over 2 yrs. Ascorbic acid is a very important vitamin in these times.

when I didn’t take niacin for longer I flush from maybe 300 mg. When taken often I need 700- 1g.
It helps with my symptoms , but not enough.

Ok, I’ll add Ascorbic acid and b vitamin for some time and see what’s happening.
But I took b vitamins and camu camu (I think 500 mg or so) and it wasn’t doing anything.
 

InChristAlone

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not being sick AT ALL (even one day of sore throat runny nose etc) is just a symptom of being low histamine


my dad low histamine never get sick
my mom higher histamine do get sick sometimes a year but it’s never bad at all

tho my mom just fall sick for 3 days of sore throa, fact is that the times my dad get sick, better call emergencit’s and whatever bc it’s a big thing (infarctus, or whatever)
Yes I did see that it's a symptoms of low histamine. I might trial not taking any ascorbic acid for a while and see if my histamine levels come up to a normal level lol.

when I didn’t take niacin for longer I flush from maybe 300 mg. When taken often I need 700- 1g.
It helps with my symptoms , but not enough.

Ok, I’ll add Ascorbic acid and b vitamin for some time and see what’s happening.
But I took b vitamins and camu camu (I think 500 mg or so) and it wasn’t doing anything.
Yeah trial more like 4-8 grams of ascorbic acid a day for a while.
 

Motif

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Yes I did see that it's a symptoms of low histamine. I might trial not taking any ascorbic acid for a while and see if my histamine levels come up to a normal level lol.


Yeah trial more like 4-8 grams of ascorbic acid a day for a while.
I will. Let’s see how my next blood tests for zinc and copper look like in a few weeks.

i also want to try to take allicin and olive leaf extract cause maybe sibo causes malabsorption to see if it makes a differences

all my life I didn’t go to toilet daily , more like once or twice a week, so maybe that could have caused this ??‍♂️

i also assume low bile.

@redsun

i will post my blood test results tomorrow for zinc and copper. I don’t think anything changed honestly. Let’s see
 

Phosphor

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Whenever I have histamine issues it is because of a mold exposure. Most people in mold exposure don't know it because it is never investigated. So anyone who was having ongoing histamine issues, I would suspect environmental or systemic mold exposure going on. Environmental needs a HERTSMI-2 test (subset of ERMI, WAY more accurate than air testing, or urine testing, neither of which finds many molds.) My histamine reactions will go astronomical until I get out of the exposure and get the mold out of my system. It usually takes months for my system to calm down again, and I have to avoid high histamine foods for all that time.
 

Motif

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Whenever I have histamine issues it is because of a mold exposure. Most people in mold exposure don't know it because it is never investigated. So anyone who was having ongoing histamine issues, I would suspect environmental or systemic mold exposure going on. Environmental needs a HERTSMI-2 test (subset of ERMI, WAY more accurate than air testing, or urine testing, neither of which finds many molds.) My histamine reactions will go astronomical until I get out of the exposure and get the mold out of my system. It usually takes months for my system to calm down again, and I have to avoid high histamine foods for all that time.

I’ve been out of my home for 6 months but this did not improve anything.
I really assume that it has to with copper/ zinc / DAO for me.
 

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