Copper/Zinc/Vitamin C Experience and Questions

[sixers]

I have some health troubles I have been trying to solve: ADHD, acne, gastritis, IBS, tendonitis, cold sensitivity, allergies/histamine intolerance.

Recently, I tried upping my Zinc through oysters (maybe 15/day as an experiment), and it was the most wonderful experience. It solved almost all my symptoms and I had motivation and excitement for life that I have not experienced for a while. However, it only lasted around 3 days. After those 3 days, the same oysters began to taste bad, make my stomach hurt, and no longer give me the positive changes. Zinc supplements faired similarly. A little after this time, I was having my ~weekly liver and I became very energized with increased circulation, though worse acne. Looking back, I assume it was the Copper.

After taking the Zinc, I was left with a strong craving for Vitamin C foods, so I went ahead and increased them. They seemed to increase my energy at first, but soon they led to headaches. As I got the headaches, I would crave MSG. I hear Vitamin C increases glutamate reuptake so I assume that is why. Perhaps the headaches were caused by low acetylcholine or glutamate?

I decided a more sensible counter-balance to the Zinc would be Copper, so I began supplementing around 1mg/day. It made me energized about 12hrs after taking it but, otherwise, little effect. Around this time, I began to experience increased lethargy. At one point, I was eating eggs, and they made me very cold, unmotivated, and depressed (excess acetylcholine, I assume). From reading the wonderful posts on this forum, I decided this meant too much Zinc and too little Copper, so I decided to increase my Copper. I did not notice much effect though. Maybe less joint pain. Maybe a little more energy and warmth, but only sporadically. I just kept going up to maybe 5mg/day Copper.

Now, after taking this dose, I am getting many headaches. It appears the threshold of Vitamin C it takes to give me a headache has been greatly decreased by the Copper. Zinc seems to cure the headache, but make my stomach hurt. I am not sure where to go from here. It seems to me that a Copper deficiency best matches my symptoms, so maybe I just need to take higher doses for longer? Not sure what to do about the headaches though. It seems like something is messed up with my methylation. Any thoughts or suggestions would be so appreciated!!

Other Notes:
- I am 19m
- My diet: Honey, potatoes, mangoes, shrimp, ground beef, cheese, ice-cream, eggs, liver, oysters
- b1 and TMG (also maybe magnesium) make me depressed. I assume they raise my acetylcholine too high.
- b6 makes me manic and gives me insomnia. I am thinking maybe it is a problem with my catecholamine synthesis. Maybe I can't turn norepinephrine into epinephrine because of a methylation issue??
- thyroid gives me a stress rxn. I assume I have some other limiting reactant on my energy production. Maybe Copper??
- I have some undermethylation-esk symptoms. I also get a large effect from creatine which makes me think maybe I am on the undermethylation side. Could be wrong though as idk why TMG would not work for me then.

Lmk if I did something wrong since this if my first post. I have loved reading this forum!

 

[Thalgo]

On the Facebook copper group it is explained that copper causes bleeding which is stopped by Vit c. Maybe it's a piece of the puzzle?

 

[sixers]

Thanks for the reply! I actually have had a bit of bruising since taking Copper which is unusual for me. Vit C makes my headaches worse though, I believe.

 

[redsun]

I have some health troubles I have been trying to solve: ADHD, acne, gastritis, IBS, tendonitis, cold sensitivity, allergies/histamine intolerance.

Recently, I tried upping my Zinc through oysters (maybe 15/day as an experiment), and it was the most wonderful experience. It solved almost all my symptoms and I had motivation and excitement for life that I have not experienced for a while. However, it only lasted around 3 days. After those 3 days, the same oysters began to taste bad, make my stomach hurt, and no longer give me the positive changes. Zinc supplements faired similarly. A little after this time, I was having my ~weekly liver and I became very energized with increased circulation, though worse acne. Looking back, I assume it was the Copper.

After taking the Zinc, I was left with a strong craving for Vitamin C foods, so I went ahead and increased them. They seemed to increase my energy at first, but soon they led to headaches. As I got the headaches, I would crave MSG. I hear Vitamin C increases glutamate reuptake so I assume that is why. Perhaps the headaches were caused by low acetylcholine or glutamate?

I decided a more sensible counter-balance to the Zinc would be Copper, so I began supplementing around 1mg/day. It made me energized about 12hrs after taking it but, otherwise, little effect. Around this time, I began to experience increased lethargy. At one point, I was eating eggs, and they made me very cold, unmotivated, and depressed (excess acetylcholine, I assume). From reading the wonderful posts on this forum, I decided this meant too much Zinc and too little Copper, so I decided to increase my Copper. I did not notice much effect though. Maybe less joint pain. Maybe a little more energy and warmth, but only sporadically. I just kept going up to maybe 5mg/day Copper.

Now, after taking this dose, I am getting many headaches. It appears the threshold of Vitamin C it takes to give me a headache has been greatly decreased by the Copper. Zinc seems to cure the headache, but make my stomach hurt. I am not sure where to go from here. It seems to me that a Copper deficiency best matches my symptoms, so maybe I just need to take higher doses for longer? Not sure what to do about the headaches though. It seems like something is messed up with my methylation. Any thoughts or suggestions would be so appreciated!!

Other Notes:
- I am 19m
- My diet: Honey, potatoes, mangoes, shrimp, ground beef, cheese, ice-cream, eggs, liver, oysters
- b1 and TMG (also maybe magnesium) make me depressed. I assume they raise my acetylcholine too high.
- b6 makes me manic and gives me insomnia. I am thinking maybe it is a problem with my catecholamine synthesis. Maybe I can't turn norepinephrine into epinephrine because of a methylation issue??
- thyroid gives me a stress rxn. I assume I have some other limiting reactant on my energy production. Maybe Copper??
- I have some undermethylation-esk symptoms. I also get a large effect from creatine which makes me think maybe I am on the undermethylation side. Could be wrong though as idk why TMG would not work for me then.

Lmk if I did something wrong since this if my first post. I have loved reading this forum!

Someone at your age should not take any B vitamins, or minerals or any hormone supplements. They will not help and likely will only cause problems and increase stress reactions. You should aim for at least 300g grams of carbs a day mostly from starch like potatoes and rice and eat a lot of protein if you don't want to feel cold. Lack of sodium in the diet will cause digestive issues. Make sure your food is well-salted and also eating pickles are a good option for salt as well. 4g of sodium a day is a good start but you may need more if you sweat a lot.

How much meat do you eat daily? How many eggs?

Oysters are very high in all the major trace minerals. But this will definitely make you feel sick, probably from acute zinc toxicity from eating 15 a day (which is about 176mg of zinc). You will also probably feel off but also very stimulated from all these minerals. But really you do not need this much of copper, zinc, iron, selenium and as you experienced after 3 days they screwed you over.

Your diet doesnt have that much iodine in it though and I think that may be a major issue behind all this. This is why eating a lot of oysters felt really motivating and energizing since they are a good source of iodine when eaten in that quantity. Shrimp is okay but you need to eat a lot daily.

The most common source of iodine in the average diet is eggs and milk/yogurt/kefir. Cheeses have some but no where near as much because they lose iodine when they are processed because they have less water and iodine is water soluble.

Eggs have about 25mcg per egg and milk has about 80mcg per cup. I would aim for at least 150-200mcg of iodine a day. This will help maintain motivation and energy better than the other minerals. This is probably what you actually need more of daily that you are not really getting enough of which will help you make thyroid hormone and improve your adhd, cold sensitivity, allergies, and digestion issues.

Taking high amounts of copper is not necessary, you only need 1-2mg a day to maintain status normally which you easily get from food. Zinc is the same, it is easily obtained if you eat red meat daily and supplementing too much zinc can kill energy and make you feel depressed. Vitamin C should be very easy to get from citrus. Just one cup of orange juice a day is all you need.

The reason you can get some kind of effect from these minerals because they all can somewhat increase thyroid hormone but you don't really need as much of them. And even if you consume them in high quantities it still wont help as much if your iodine intake is low.

 

[sixers]

Someone at your age should not take any B vitamins, or minerals or any hormone supplements. They will not help and likely will only cause problems and increase stress reactions. You should aim for at least 300g grams of carbs a day mostly from starch like potatoes and rice and eat a lot of protein if you don't want to feel cold. Lack of sodium in the diet will cause digestive issues. Make sure your food is well-salted and also eating pickles are a good option for salt as well. 4g of sodium a day is a good start but you may need more if you sweat a lot.

How much meat do you eat daily? How many eggs?

Oysters are very high in all the major trace minerals. But this will definitely make you feel sick, probably from acute zinc toxicity from eating 15 a day (which is about 176mg of zinc). You will also probably feel off but also very stimulated from all these minerals. But really you do not need this much of copper, zinc, iron, selenium and as you experienced after 3 days they screwed you over.

Your diet doesnt have that much iodine in it though and I think that may be a major issue behind all this. This is why eating a lot of oysters felt really motivating and energizing since they are a good source of iodine when eaten in that quantity. Shrimp is okay but you need to eat a lot daily.

The most common source of iodine in the average diet is eggs and milk/yogurt/kefir. Cheeses have some but no where near as much because they lose iodine when they are processed because they have less water and iodine is water soluble.

Eggs have about 25mcg per egg and milk has about 80mcg per cup. I would aim for at least 150-200mcg of iodine a day. This will help maintain motivation and energy better than the other minerals. This is probably what you actually need more of daily that you are not really getting enough of which will help you make thyroid hormone and improve your adhd, cold sensitivity, allergies, and digestion issues.

Taking high amounts of copper is not necessary, you only need 1-2mg a day to maintain status normally which you easily get from food. Zinc is the same, it is easily obtained if you eat red meat daily and supplementing too much zinc can kill energy and make you feel depressed. Vitamin C should be very easy to get from citrus. Just one cup of orange juice a day is all you need.

The reason you can get some kind of effect from these minerals because they all can somewhat increase thyroid hormone but you don't really need as much of them. And even if you consume them in high quantities it still wont help as much if your iodine intake is low.

Thanks so much for this great info!

What you are saying makes sense. I don't drink milk or use iodized salt. I also remember being stimulated by iodized salt back when I was keto... Anyway, I will lay off the zinc/copper for a while and shoot for 200mcg/day and report back.

I eat 3-5 eggs maybe 50% of days. So, like 2/day avg. I haven't counted calories, but I'd guess close to 3k. I eat like 1 lb of meat/day plus maybe 750 calories of honey, a couple potatoes, fruit, and ice-cream or eggs, for example. I will try leaning towards starches, adding rice and more potatoes instead of honey.

Random questions... Does iodine somehow help you digest purple grape juice? I used to eat purple grape juice with pickle juice, but stopped after I got gastritis. Tried replacing the pickle juice with non-iodized salt to no avail. The grape juice made my stomach feel choked up. Zinc can be similar.

Super appreciative of all the information you share!

 

[redsun]

Thanks so much for this great info!

What you are saying makes sense. I don't drink milk or use iodized salt. I also remember being stimulated by iodized salt back when I was keto... Anyway, I will lay off the zinc/copper for a while and shoot for 200mcg/day and report back.

I eat 3-5 eggs maybe 50% of days. So, like 2/day avg. I haven't counted calories, but I'd guess close to 3k. I eat like 1 lb of meat/day plus maybe 750 calories of honey, a couple potatoes, fruit, and ice-cream or eggs, for example. I will try leaning towards starches, adding rice and more potatoes instead of honey.

Random questions... Does iodine somehow help you digest purple grape juice? I used to eat purple grape juice with pickle juice, but stopped after I got gastritis. Tried replacing the pickle juice with non-iodized salt to no avail. The grape juice made my stomach feel choked up. Zinc can be similar.

Super appreciative of all the information you share!

Yeh that is definitely too many calories from honey. If that pound of meat you eat is mostly red meats you should be getting plenty of zinc.

Pickles themselves dont usually cause problems but they may be triggers for gastritis. I dont see how grape juice can cause issues (its basically sugar water) but anything is possible. It may be too much fructose consumption in one sitting. Some people get problems if they consume a lot at once. If pickles or their juice give you issues just try to salt your foods you eat.

Iodine indirectly should help you digest all your foods better by maintaining thyroid hormone function. So keep intake of iodine consistently higher every day through a combination of eggs, milk (if you can consume it), iodized salt. Seafood helps as well but most people don't eat seafood every day.

I know its unlikely but just making sure, if you are the kind of person that really doesn't chew your food well or if your foods don't need to be chewed much the way you cook them that will cause bad stomach problems since chewing signals signals to your body to make stomach acid.

 

[sixers]

Yeh that is definitely too many calories from honey. If that pound of meat you eat is mostly red meats you should be getting plenty of zinc.

Pickles themselves dont usually cause problems but they may be triggers for gastritis. I dont see how grape juice can cause issues (its basically sugar water) but anything is possible. It may be too much fructose consumption in one sitting. Some people get problems if they consume a lot at once. If pickles or their juice give you issues just try to salt your foods you eat.

Iodine indirectly should help you digest all your foods better by maintaining thyroid hormone function. So keep intake of iodine consistently higher every day through a combination of eggs, milk (if you can consume it), iodized salt. Seafood helps as well but most people don't eat seafood every day.

I know its unlikely but just making sure, if you are the kind of person that really doesn't chew your food well or if your foods don't need to be chewed much the way you cook them that will cause bad stomach problems since chewing signals signals to your body to make stomach acid.

Thanks again for your replies!!

Yeah, the purple grape juice thing being connected to iodine was just a shot in the dark. Idk why I have trouble with that. White grape juice is fine so it's something about it being purple lol. I do chew my foods well. I swapped out the honey for rice, but tbh the rice seems to make me more sleepy relative to honey. I will stick with it for a bit because I bought a bunch of rice, so I suppose I'll see if my body will adapt.

The iodine is giving me a pretty stark effect. Increased bowel movements, less oily skin, and (most notably) kinda sporadic energy. I'm getting like 200-300mcg. I'd say I get energy for about 40% of the time. The rest of the time I am back to my usual lethargy. It is random as to when it happens. It feels great, though maybe a tiny bit stress-ish in nature.

I appreciate you pointing it out. I really hope it was the missing piece. Idk though, I feel like it's odd how inconsistent the effect is. Do I need to get more? Or just do it for longer?

Interestingly, the lethargy I have now was also there when I was vegan and also when I was keto. I self-diagnosed those issues to be a thyroid thing, but didn't really land on iodine as the cause. Idk if it was the cause, because I think I was doing iodized salt at some point back then. Now, I still feel I have an acetylcholine issue as I have a tendency to feel cold/lethargic/hopeless in a way which is made much worse by eggs or steak. Maybe I did then, too? Not sure if that means anything besides that my thyroid is not high enough to break it down.

Anyway, I really appreciate your thoughts. If you have any ideas about the iodine thing or anything else, that would be great!

 

[redsun]

Thanks again for your replies!!

Yeah, the purple grape juice thing being connected to iodine was just a shot in the dark. Idk why I have trouble with that. White grape juice is fine so it's something about it being purple lol. I do chew my foods well. I swapped out the honey for rice, but tbh the rice seems to make me more sleepy relative to honey. I will stick with it for a bit because I bought a bunch of rice, so I suppose I'll see if my body will adapt.

The iodine is giving me a pretty stark effect. Increased bowel movements, less oily skin, and (most notably) kinda sporadic energy. I'm getting like 200-300mcg. I'd say I get energy for about 40% of the time. The rest of the time I am back to my usual lethargy. It is random as to when it happens. It feels great, though maybe a tiny bit stress-ish in nature.

I appreciate you pointing it out. I really hope it was the missing piece. Idk though, I feel like it's odd how inconsistent the effect is. Do I need to get more? Or just do it for longer?

Interestingly, the lethargy I have now was also there when I was vegan and also when I was keto. I self-diagnosed those issues to be a thyroid thing, but didn't really land on iodine as the cause. Idk if it was the cause, because I think I was doing iodized salt at some point back then. Now, I still feel I have an acetylcholine issue as I have a tendency to feel cold/lethargic/hopeless in a way which is made much worse by eggs or steak. Maybe I did then, too? Not sure if that means anything besides that my thyroid is not high enough to break it down.

Anyway, I really appreciate your thoughts. If you have any ideas about the iodine thing or anything else, that would be great!

I'm glad getting more iodine helped. The iodine itself is probably not whats causing inconsistent energy. Its something else. You say you eat about 1lb of meat a day. And you only mention eating ground beef as meat. I assume you only eat ground beef then, and eating a lb a day may sound okay but the problem is ground beef is very high in zinc. You could easily be getting almost 30mg of zinc a day just from the ground beef and probably more from the rest of the foods you eat.

You may be making it harder to absorb copper but even forgetting about copper for a second, zinc itself in high levels can cause consistent fatigue/lethargy/weakness like you describe because it can mess with acetylcholine (Ach) synthesis.

Ach is formed by acetyl-CoA and choline. It actually can lower Ach synthesis in the muscles too much because too much zinc can enter the cells and mess with Acetyl-CoA synthesis and also ATP synthesis by intefering with multiple Krebs cycle enzymes that are needed to make them. This puts you in a state of lower ATP synthesis and lower acetylcholine activity in the muscles which will lead to a severe fatigue that will not go away until the excess zinc is excreted.

But the problem is, you constantly consume a lot of zinc from ground beef and you have a history of using zinc supplements to get even more. You also mentioned experiencing these effects from zinc supplementation and thought it was due to low copper. While likely yes low copper was a part of it, copper didnt help all the way because it cannot fix what zinc excess does to kreb cycle enzymes.

So what I would recommend you do is keep your iodine intake consistent like how you already doing and only eat a half pound of red meat a day and the rest is white meat. And also do not supplement zinc of course. This should help you dramatically as it will restore acetyl-CoA and ATP synthesis to normal. I think this may be your issue. I have done this many times to myself thinking the problem was copper but its not just copper because getting more doesnt fix it, its something specific zinc does when you have chronically high intakes from food and supplements.

 

[sixers]

I'm glad getting more iodine helped. The iodine itself is probably not whats causing inconsistent energy. Its something else. You say you eat about 1lb of meat a day. And you only mention eating ground beef as meat. I assume you only eat ground beef then, and eating a lb a day may sound okay but the problem is ground beef is very high in zinc. You could easily be getting almost 30mg of zinc a day just from the ground beef and probably more from the rest of the foods you eat.

You may be making it harder to absorb copper but even forgetting about copper for a second, zinc itself in high levels can cause consistent fatigue/lethargy/weakness like you describe because it can mess with acetylcholine (Ach) synthesis.

Ach is formed by acetyl-CoA and choline. It actually can lower Ach synthesis in the muscles too much because too much zinc can enter the cells and mess with Acetyl-CoA synthesis and also ATP synthesis by intefering with multiple Krebs cycle enzymes that are needed to make them. This puts you in a state of lower ATP synthesis and lower acetylcholine activity in the muscles which will lead to a severe fatigue that will not go away until the excess zinc is excreted.

But the problem is, you constantly consume a lot of zinc from ground beef and you have a history of using zinc supplements to get even more. You also mentioned experiencing these effects from zinc supplementation and thought it was due to low copper. While likely yes low copper was a part of it, copper didnt help all the way because it cannot fix what zinc excess does to kreb cycle enzymes.

So what I would recommend you do is keep your iodine intake consistent like how you already doing and only eat a half pound of red meat a day and the rest is white meat. And also do not supplement zinc of course. This should help you dramatically as it will restore acetyl-CoA and ATP synthesis to normal. I think this may be your issue. I have done this many times to myself thinking the problem was copper but its not just copper because getting more doesnt fix it, its something specific zinc does when you have chronically high intakes from food and supplements.

Ah, interesting. That could make sense. Maybe, I'll just totally replace the red meat with chicken temporarily?

I have been eating large amounts of beef for a while so I can see getting too much zinc based on that. Not sure how some of the other stuff fits in that I have had since childhood or whatever (like ADHD/gut stuff) or why I would get the same fatigue on a vegan diet as I did on keto and maybe similar now. I think zinc excess makes sense rn, at least, regardless. So, I'll start with that.

Do you have thoughts on b5? Ik people megadose it for acne and say it's effective, but might make your hair fall out. Supposedly, the mechanism is something about increasing acetyl-CoA, so that is why I ask. It always seemed like an unnatural fix for me, but I bring it up because I thought it was interesting that you were talking about low acetyl-CoA and I also do have acne. I could ofc just increase it a more small amount if it would help, but maybe it would be particularly counter-productive if the limiting reactant is the enzymes you are discussing rather than b5.

Thanks again for you insight! It is always fascinating to read your posts.

 

[redsun]

Ah, interesting. That could make sense. Maybe, I'll just totally replace the red meat with chicken temporarily?

I have been eating large amounts of beef for a while so I can see getting too much zinc based on that. Not sure how some of the other stuff fits in that I have had since childhood or whatever (like ADHD/gut stuff) or why I would get the same fatigue on a vegan diet as I did on keto and maybe similar now. I think zinc excess makes sense rn, at least, regardless. So, I'll start with that.

Do you have thoughts on b5? Ik people megadose it for acne and say it's effective, but might make your hair fall out. Supposedly, the mechanism is something about increasing acetyl-CoA, so that is why I ask. It always seemed like an unnatural fix for me, but I bring it up because I thought it was interesting that you were talking about low acetyl-CoA and I also do have acne. I could ofc just increase it a more small amount if it would help, but maybe it would be particularly counter-productive if the limiting reactant is the enzymes you are discussing rather than b5.

Thanks again for you insight! It is always fascinating to read your posts.

Vegan diet and keto diet cause fatigue in their own ways. There is little way to determine exactly what exactly contributes but vegan diet is deficient in many nutrients. Choline is very low on vegan for example as well which could still manifest as Ach deficiency but veganism leads to many nutrient deficiencies. Keto diet fatigue is usually lack of carbs and can be due to nutrient deficiencies as well if you are not careful with how your diet is set up but that goes for any diet. This is why a balanced diet that has all food groups is generally better.

It takes time for iodine to do work if its been low for awhile. Consistent intake will make a bigger difference. Especially if you happen to do a lot of physical activity and mental work for classes. Its important you are consistent with all your micronutrient intakes (copper, choline, iodine, etc) and macronutrient intakes. You are young so oftentimes you really need more calories as well.

Lower ATP and acetyl-CoA synthesis can definitely contribute to concentration problems. Ach is very important and works alongside dopamine closely to maintain concentration and focus and help make you less distractable. So besides the fact that you need to not go crazy on zinc, I highly recommend you consistently eat eggs every day instead of every other day so your choline intake is higher. You need choline every day and you need quite a bit and its very difficult to get even the RDA of 550mg without eggs. But most people do better with cognition and have improved gut health when choline is 800mg or more.

You can try just chicken temporarily to help you excrete zinc faster but afterward I would still recommend red meat still every day you just need to not eat tons of it, half a lb at most daily.

Right now I suggest you work on the zinc angle first.

I would not recommend just B5. I think you can see benefit if you occasionally supplement with a good B complex. Notice here in the OP, you only take B1 and B6 and TMG. Taking seperate Bs like this is a big mistake. B6 can deplete B2, really B2 can get depleted easily because it is very involved in activating most of the other B vitamins. And just taking the Bs seperate in general will mess with the others. The one I will link is generally better balanced and I recommend you take this once a week only. It should balance your system out by giving you all the Bs instead of just the few you took before which should also help your energy levels. And you can try a high dose of B5 for like a week or two at most. It may help normalize your acne but I would not take it longer than this.

There is little you can do about acne at your age. Eating plenty of nutrient dense foods help the most and getting plenty of sleep. The issue is the increases hormones secrete tons of oil and this makes teens more prone to it. But the answer is not to dry yourself out with tons of B5 or vitamin A/accutane. These things can cause there own serious side effects that can be permanent. There is no point to risk that.

Try the Bs after like a week of lowering your red meat intake so you know exactly whats doing what.

Amazon product ASIN B01787EPEEView: https://www.amazon.com/Super-B-Complex-Methylated-Vitamins-Methylcobalamin/dp/B01787EPEE/ref=zg_bs_3774761_sccl_3/141-0727195-8915669?psc=1

 

[sixers]

Vegan diet and keto diet cause fatigue in their own ways. There is little way to determine exactly what exactly contributes but vegan diet is deficient in many nutrients. Choline is very low on vegan for example as well which could still manifest as Ach deficiency but veganism leads to many nutrient deficiencies. Keto diet fatigue is usually lack of carbs and can be due to nutrient deficiencies as well if you are not careful with how your diet is set up but that goes for any diet. This is why a balanced diet that has all food groups is generally better.

It takes time for iodine to do work if its been low for awhile. Consistent intake will make a bigger difference. Especially if you happen to do a lot of physical activity and mental work for classes. Its important you are consistent with all your micronutrient intakes (copper, choline, iodine, etc) and macronutrient intakes. You are young so oftentimes you really need more calories as well.

Lower ATP and acetyl-CoA synthesis can definitely contribute to concentration problems. Ach is very important and works alongside dopamine closely to maintain concentration and focus and help make you less distractable. So besides the fact that you need to not go crazy on zinc, I highly recommend you consistently eat eggs every day instead of every other day so your choline intake is higher. You need choline every day and you need quite a bit and its very difficult to get even the RDA of 550mg without eggs. But most people do better with cognition and have improved gut health when choline is 800mg or more.

You can try just chicken temporarily to help you excrete zinc faster but afterward I would still recommend red meat still every day you just need to not eat tons of it, half a lb at most daily.

Right now I suggest you work on the zinc angle first.

I would not recommend just B5. I think you can see benefit if you occasionally supplement with a good B complex. Notice here in the OP, you only take B1 and B6 and TMG. Taking seperate Bs like this is a big mistake. B6 can deplete B2, really B2 can get depleted easily because it is very involved in activating most of the other B vitamins. And just taking the Bs seperate in general will mess with the others. The one I will link is generally better balanced and I recommend you take this once a week only. It should balance your system out by giving you all the Bs instead of just the few you took before which should also help your energy levels. And you can try a high dose of B5 for like a week or two at most. It may help normalize your acne but I would not take it longer than this.

There is little you can do about acne at your age. Eating plenty of nutrient dense foods help the most and getting plenty of sleep. The issue is the increases hormones secrete tons of oil and this makes teens more prone to it. But the answer is not to dry yourself out with tons of B5 or vitamin A/accutane. These things can cause there own serious side effects that can be permanent. There is no point to risk that.

Try the Bs after like a week of lowering your red meat intake so you know exactly whats doing what.

Amazon product ASIN B01787EPEEView: https://www.amazon.com/Super-B-Complex-Methylated-Vitamins-Methylcobalamin/dp/B01787EPEE/ref=zg_bs_3774761_sccl_3/141-0727195-8915669?psc=1

Yeah, true, vegan and keto can cause independent issues.

I have been reflecting on it, though, and I am not sure excess zinc is quite the issue. I ate a lot of oysters that one time, but I never supplemented very much. A few days of like 50mgs and then only 5mg-ish tests after that. Most notably, the taste of zinc sulfate (the supplement I used) tastes quite mild to me. Like water with a bit of an aftertaste, but not very metallic. Imo, the taste test for zinc seems to be a good one. The amount I taste it has fluctuated over time, as I'd expect based on supplementation. Anyway, I am not sure, I will stick with the low red meat/zinc experiment, regardless.

On a maybe related note, I think my acetylcholine is high, not low, atm. It seems to me that the lethargy/weakness is pretty similar on high and low acetylcholine. Along with it, I get that helpless feeling that is perfectly described by Ray to be associated with acetylcholine in his learned helplessness article. The thing that really makes me sure though is that the feeling is magnified by eating eggs. So much so, that I really can't eat them anymore as they are really not worth it. This feeling did get worse after the whole oyster thing. Maybe the zinc depleted something else which caused it? Or maybe, I am low in zinc and somehow it is causing this effect.

In regards to the b vitamins, I did actually take a complex, but it gave me some negative effects so I tested with some of the individual ones. I thought the effects I got from the individual ones were weirdly bad for low doses, so that's why I mentioned them. I didn't take the individual ones for long. Anyway, advice taken :)

If you don't recommend the b5, I won't take it.

I am wondering if I need more copper, but because I didn't have enough iodine it couldn't be utilized or something, idk.

 

[redsun]

Yeah, true, vegan and keto can cause independent issues.

I have been reflecting on it, though, and I am not sure excess zinc is quite the issue. I ate a lot of oysters that one time, but I never supplemented very much. A few days of like 50mgs and then only 5mg-ish tests after that. Most notably, the taste of zinc sulfate (the supplement I used) tastes quite mild to me. Like water with a bit of an aftertaste, but not very metallic. Imo, the taste test for zinc seems to be a good one. The amount I taste it has fluctuated over time, as I'd expect based on supplementation. Anyway, I am not sure, I will stick with the low red meat/zinc experiment, regardless.

On a maybe related note, I think my acetylcholine is high, not low, atm. It seems to me that the lethargy/weakness is pretty similar on high and low acetylcholine. Along with it, I get that helpless feeling that is perfectly described by Ray to be associated with acetylcholine in his learned helplessness article. The thing that really makes me sure though is that the feeling is magnified by eating eggs. So much so, that I really can't eat them anymore as they are really not worth it. This feeling did get worse after the whole oyster thing. Maybe the zinc depleted something else which caused it? Or maybe, I am low in zinc and somehow it is causing this effect.

In regards to the b vitamins, I did actually take a complex, but it gave me some negative effects so I tested with some of the individual ones. I thought the effects I got from the individual ones were weirdly bad for low doses, so that's why I mentioned them. I didn't take the individual ones for long. Anyway, advice taken :)

If you don't recommend the b5, I won't take it.

I am wondering if I need more copper, but because I didn't have enough iodine it couldn't be utilized or something, idk.

Don't put too much weight on tasting zinc. I am not referring to your past zinc supplementation, the current major issue is your diet is giving you a ton of zinc from 1lb of ground beef a day. Add maybe 5mg of zinc or more from the rest of food you eat daily and your total daily intake is right near the upper limit. This will affect your enzymes that make acetyl-CoA and also ATP as I already stated. The secondary problem is suboptimal copper status which will also lead to a low ATP state. Even if you take copper supplements for a short time and you replete levels a little, because your diet is so high in zinc you are very likely getting depleted quickly again. Low copper will also make you depressed. You could not possibly be low in zinc with how much beef you eat.

Choline is a cognitive enhancer. Because of this it also increases your self-awareness. This can make you more prone to depression as your problems that you need to work on or emotionally process will be more evident to you. But its not excess acetylcholine that causes this. It is the mental pattern of avoidance that causes this. The brain likes to shove problems in your face whenever it can. Just like when you are afraid of something, you get nightmares about it. Its your brain trying to force you to face your fears or your issues whatever they are.

If you truly had high acetylcholine you would have bradycardia, low blood pressure, excessive sweating, itching, tight muscles which may be especially noticeable in the shoulders/neck area. You would also experience very vivid dreams regularly. Just try the lower zinc intake for now and see how things go for a week.

 

[moa]

i experienced with very high acetylcholine when i first started to take huge amount of B5 500mg (going from low acetylcholine to very high), almost felt like passing or about to die, yes depression is not necessarily from acetylcholine itself.

usually depression without anxiety is from low dopamine and low norepinephrine, or low dopamine and low GABA if headache or low dopamine and high norepinephrine is anxiety.

copper is needed to produce norepinephrine from dopamine, and taking copper with B5 could raise both norepinephrine and acetylcholine and lower dopamine = headache and anxiety.

i just can't take copper any longer, it gives me serious nausea and disturbs my gut, while zinc is ok if taken with food.

I just take 25mg zinc bisglycinate right now 2 days out of 3, with food and b complex, and it seems to be the sweet spot with minimal side effects, but i think only 10mg or 15mg per day is safer long term.

With zinc, it seems the best and the most beneficial dosage is close to RDA, not much more like with b vitamins. it seems going above RDA does not give any long term benefits.

zinc excess can produce the binding protein that is binding copper much more than zinc, thus it is impossible to get enaught copper to balance zinc intake, the only solution is to stop zinc intake, and it takes from around 1 to 2 or 3 weeks to come back to normal depending on how much you took.

i saw you said magnesium giving maybe depression, i don't think so. magnesium is so difficult to get enaught this days. magnesium is anti anxiety and good calming clear mind, not depressing. i can't take oral magnesium supplementation because of colon irritation and anal bleeding.

magnesium bath, or on the skin is very similar to bag breathing for 30 minutes, in my own experience, the way it makes me feel.

 

[Olmec]

@moa
Do you recall what type of copper supplement you were using?

 

[moa]

@moa
Do you recall what type of copper supplement you were using?

I'm using copper bisglycinate.

Actually i started taking again since 5 days ago, with food during a meal, and without side effects for now.

i think i took just a bit too much zinc without any copper this past 8 months. that's why I'm taking copper now without zinc lol. (only for a few weeks)

 

[Olmec]

@moa
Ok. (Salut?!)
What's your take on the copper(1) v copper(2) form, and their bio-compatability/safety? It looks like you find copper(2) forms acceptable/suitable.

 

[moa]

@Olmec i haven't researched much on the two forms.

Copper is a very complex element, there is much debate on whether you need high copper in the blood and not in the liver or maybe high whatever (ceruloplasmin, etc).

There are some ideas from people pushing high ceruloplasmin, other they say copper is as toxic as vitamin A. I'm not sure about any of those extreme theories, but i do believe vitamin A might be toxic in high dose like in liver or supplements, over time.

I think vitamin C is important to put copper in the good forum, i do take some acerola or vitamin c the days when i take copper, i don't take copper without it.

the feeling i have, sometimes, only when i took high dose vitamin c without any copper, it seems to reduce copper deficiency symptoms. maybe because it buffers excess histamine, but i think it does play a role on copper recycle i think.

isn't ascorbic acid (vit c) needed to convert copper 2 into copper 1, or am i wrong? And vitamin c deficiency isn't only a copper deficiency ? "Scurvy-like symptoms have been seen in experimental copper deficiency. This forecasts a role for the vitamin in copper metabolism."

 

[Olmec]

@moa
Tiens regarde

Copper like Many other minerals are transition metals. Means it donates and Accept electrons to transition between oxidized and unoxidized. Iron also do this as Fe iii and Fe ii. THE Body has enzymes/proteins that help do this like ceruloplasmin. The Body is very effective at handling this coz it controls redox balance. And vitamin C does this for Copper Wich also creates dihydroascorbic acid. Dont fall for the unoxidized minerals dont work so buy this expensive supplement concept. Ascorbic acid is the bodys Main facilitator for these transition metals. That is the role of ascorbic acid. Thats why it can work as both an anti oxidant and a pro oxidant. Ascorbic acid deficiency mimics Copper deficiency.

No its not true. You are right that Copper or Any mineral like Zinc etc is Always better from food rather than isolated mineral. But if you have a proven deficiency cu ii works. It has been shown in Many studies to increase Copper and ceruloplasmin. Wich is THE enzyme Morley is trying to raise. I personally have raised My ceruloplasmin with regular. Copper. And Morley Robbins is a fraud. Theres No difference between ascorbic acid and vitamin C like he claims. Vitamin D opposite to what hes claiming actually raised ceruloplasmin. Also studies on that. Many People have fallen very ill following His protocol. They promotes consultation that Costa several thousands of dollars. And promotes so high magnesium doses People ***t their pants literally. THE Body is perfectly capable of turning cu ii into cu i if it needs so. Copper toxicity is not due to Copper itself. Its due to lack of other co factors for proper working Copper system. Just like iron toxicity rarely is thanks to iron rather just general poor health and lack of other nutrients.

 

[Olmec]

@moa
This thread re the link between copper & ascorbate...

This is the key to understanding ascorbate's role in copper metabolism.
In all of the papers I just cited, the authors hypothesize that copper deficiency and scurvy are largely the same disease because they share incredibly similar symptom profiles. This makes sense in light of ascorbate's role, which is perfectly elucidated by one of the paper titles: Ascorbate Enhances Copper Transport from Ceruloplasmin into Human Cells! Ascorbate is helping ceruloplasmin in the final hand-off to the cells, so that copper can complete its job as a co-factor in a multitude of enzymatic processes.

 

[moa]

@Olmec Buffered vitamin C is the only high dose i can take on my stomach. some said it has half the power of plain vitamin C but I'm not sure if true (cause it acts both as oxidant and antioxidant in the body).

there's a limit on how much you can absorb orally... but intervenors very high vitamin c has been used with no side effects up to 10g or even 100g per day, that's way more than you can absorb orally without diarrhea.

anyway, i only take some acerola usually like 150mg vitamin c twice per day, or 500mg buffered synthetic (rarely).