Does excessive histamine lower copper and ceruloplasmin?

[Ippodrom47]

Hi! Has anyone experienced low copper and ceruloplasmin (both significantly lower than normal) with higher than normal Zinc and possibly high histamine (I'll retest it soon)? Not the other way around (low copper cause high histamine) as I get plenty of copper in my diet. I haven't been able to find much articles on that. Thank you!

 

[Highserotonin90]

Are these simple serum values?

 

[Ippodrom47]

Are these simple serum values?

Hi! Zinc - 22.6 (reference range 10.7-18.5)
Copper - 7.8 (10.99-21.98)
Ceruloplasmin - 181 (200-600)

No Wilson's disease genes. Urine copper was on the lower side last year. I get plenty of copper in my diet, easily hitting the RDA or more.

 

[youngsinatra]

Hi! Zinc - 22.6 (reference range 10.7-18.5)
Copper - 7.8 (10.99-21.98)
Ceruloplasmin - 181 (200-600)

No Wilson's disease genes. Urine copper was on the lower side last year. I get plenty of copper in my diet, easily hitting the RDA or more.

I always get similar lab results like you. It‘s been that way for over a year. (on 4-5 blood tests)

Nothing improved it so far (dietary copper, copper bisglycinate (up to 8mg/day), not even fancy mitosynergy cuprous nicotinic acid (2-4mg/day for many many months)

I need to avoid zinc-rich foods like beef/oysters as they worsen my symptoms so dramatically. Even after an almost full year of eating low zinc, my serum zinc is still at the upper end of the reference range.

Do you have symptoms of copper deficiency? I do.

I recently discovered that Hypothyroidism can cause low ceruloplasmin and serum copper, which normalizes with thyroid medication. I am not hypothyroid according to my doctor (TSH 2.8, fT4, fT3 middle range) but always had hypo symptoms. I am exploring the possibility of pseudo-adrenal insufficiency („adrenal fatigue“) causing my hypothyroid symptoms and low copper.

I‘ll also experiment with thyroid hormone (T3) soon.

 

[charlie]

I always get similar lab results like you. It‘s been that way for over a year. (on 4-5 blood tests)

Have you seen @Hope's posts on the Love your liver site? She introduced a certain probiotic and it fixed her low blood copper and is allowing her to dump copper now.

 

[youngsinatra]

Have you seen @Hope's posts on the Love your liver site? She introduced a certain probiotic and it fixed her low blood copper and is allowing her to dump copper now.

Yes. I also know a few people who fixed their low copper with B2, methylation protocols, thyroid, adrenal support, avoiding too much estrogen antagonism etc. etc.

I guess it depends on whats lacking in the machinery that allows copper mobilization and utilization.

 

[Ippodrom47]

Do you have symptoms of copper deficiency? I do.

I also have those, as well as hypothyroid symptoms (I experienced severe carotenemia in the past) and a bad reaction to goitrogens. I feel much better after a blood draw for a test, but that doesn't last long. My serum iron and saturation are normal, and ferritin even on the low side right now. I can't have meat in any substantial amounts, chicken is a bit better. I don't have any allergies (no allergy symptoms and have been tested on all panels) but I strongly suspect histamine issues. My reaction to even small amounts of vitamin C is usually bad, and so is strenuous exercise. Maybe it's due to iron or a histamine flush. I'll wait for my blood histamine test, which is due in a couple days and then decide from there.

 

[youngsinatra]

I also have those, as well as hypothyroid symptoms (I experienced severe carotenemia in the past) and a bad reaction to goitrogens. I feel much better after a blood draw for a test, but that doesn't last long. My serum iron and saturation are normal, and ferritin even on the low side right now. I can't have meat in any substantial amounts, chicken is a bit better. I don't have any allergies (no allergy symptoms and have been tested on all panels) but I strongly suspect histamine issues. My reaction to even small amounts of vitamin C is usually bad, and so is strenuous exercise. Maybe it's due to iron or a histamine flush. I'll wait for my blood histamine test, which is due in a couple days and then decide from there.

Have you ever gotten thyroid labs?

 

[aniciete]

I also have those, as well as hypothyroid symptoms (I experienced severe carotenemia in the past) and a bad reaction to goitrogens. I feel much better after a blood draw for a test, but that doesn't last long. My serum iron and saturation are normal, and ferritin even on the low side right now. I can't have meat in any substantial amounts, chicken is a bit better. I don't have any allergies (no allergy symptoms and have been tested on all panels) but I strongly suspect histamine issues. My reaction to even small amounts of vitamin C is usually bad, and so is strenuous exercise. Maybe it's due to iron or a histamine flush. I'll wait for my blood histamine test, which is due in a couple days and then decide from there.

Have you ever tested your home for mold?

 

[Don]

You could check out the Jason Hommels Copper group on FB. Lots of interesting copper info on there. I know for a fact lots of histamine and zinc stuff on there.

 

[Ippodrom47]

Have you ever gotten thyroid labs?

Yep, TSH is usually about 1-1.5, and free t4 and free t3 in the middle of the range or a bit lower. Honestly, they were worse a couple years ago when I was actually feeling better so I doubt it's direct thyroid issues. An ultrasound doesn't reveal anything of interest.

Have you ever tested your home for mold?

I had mold in my previous apartment, then I moved out and am wearing only new clothes. I never noticed any correlation with my symptoms.

 

[peter88]

I need to avoid zinc-rich foods like beef/oysters as they worsen my symptoms so dramatically. Even after an almost full year of eating low zinc, my serum zinc is still at the upper end of the reference range.

What kind of symptoms do you get from beef?

 

[youngsinatra]

What kind of symptoms do you get from beef?

Peripheral neuropathy, extreme fatigue, very pale skin with almost blue-ish nails, hypothermia, balance issues/extreme dizziness, gait issue/ataxia, blurry vision. Basically MS type symptoms.

If I eat red meat once, I am basically bed bound for at least a week.

 

[peter88]

Peripheral neuropathy, extreme fatigue, very pale skin with almost blue-ish nails, hypothermia, balance issues/extreme dizziness, gait issue/ataxia, blurry vision. Basically MS type symptoms.

If I eat red meat once, I am basically bed bound for at least a week.

Oh wow that’s scary stuff. You react that way to beef, lamb, bison etc?

 

[youngsinatra]

Oh wow that’s scary stuff. You react that way to beef, lamb, bison etc?

Yeah, also to wild game. Also to oysters. And to zinc supplements. I definitely think it’s the zinc component.

 

[peter88]

Yeah, also to wild game. Also to oysters. And to zinc supplements. I definitely think it’s the zinc component.

Interesting stuff. Are you symptom free if you eat chicken or low zinc seafood like scallops/shrimp?

 

[youngsinatra]

Interesting stuff. Are you symptom free if you eat chicken or low zinc seafood like scallops/shrimp?

Yeah.

 

[Peater]

Have you ever tried methylene blue? I ask as I read it can fill in as a copper substitute during deficiency. I know you're not deficient but i wonder if it could be used in a diagnostic sense, rather than cure. You could see if it helps the "machinery" process actual copper.

I also read that pantothenic acid can help with adrenal issues. I take 500mg of that and pantethine and notice some good effects. Cheap and easy to try anyway. Or try a big dose of brewers yeast water extract to make sure you get all the B vits.

 

[youngsinatra]

Have you ever tried methylene blue? I ask as I read it can fill in as a copper substitute during deficiency. I know you're not deficient but i wonder if it could be used in a diagnostic sense, rather than cure. You could see if it helps the "machinery" process actual copper.

I also read that pantothenic acid can help with adrenal issues. I take 500mg of that and pantethine and notice some good effects. Cheap and easy to try anyway. Or try a big dose of brewers yeast water extract to make sure you get all the B vits.

No I haven’t gotten my hands on MB yet. It works very similarly to copper in the mitochondria, so it’s an interesting compound. It likely does (partially) compensate for low copper bioavailability.

Still trying to figure out what is the limiting factor, that causes the copper dysregulation. I think it’s related to thyroid/adrenal dysfunction, as T3 is needed for copper utilization and ceruloplasmin synthesis, but so many things can dysregulate that system, with high RT3 or suboptimal T3 levels.

 

[Ippodrom47]

No I haven’t gotten my hands on MB yet. It works very similarly to copper in the mitochondria, so it’s an interesting compound. It likely does (partially) compensate for low copper bioavailability.

Still trying to figure out what is the limiting factor, that causes the copper dysregulation. I think it’s related to thyroid/adrenal dysfunction, as T3 is needed for copper utilization and ceruloplasmin synthesis, but so many things can dysregulate that system, with high RT3 or suboptimal T3 levels.

I've got high zinc and low copper according to blood tests. My ceruloplasmin is also low at around 160-180. I don't take any zinc supplements and have more than enough copper in my diet. I also don't have any Wilson's gene mutations. I guess it all started after I screw up my metabolism with vitamin A and subsequently carotenemia. I can control how I feel to an extent if I watch my diet, but it seems that avoiding high zinc foods and other stuff only addresses the ramifications, not the actual problem.