Zinc - My Miracle For Acne & Estrogen Dominance

[jyb]

I'll try 10mgs of the zinc picolinate from Thorne daily for a week and see. That supp has silicon dioxide in it but it's all I have now and only a short term experiment.

 

[Ari]

I've just read and been reminded of some rat studies involving Zinc that have forced me to be more diligent in taking Zinc.

The first was a lecture I sat in on years ago. The researcher said that rats on a high fat diet experienced lower metabolisms and lower signs of health UNLESS they were given extra zinc in their diet.

The next, which is one I just discovered recently online, said that rats who were given extra salicylates experienced worse hearing UNLESS they were also given extra zinc. This might be helpful to those taking aspirin.

I'm gonna go ahead and treat myself as if I have a zinc deficiency and see what happens. I just found a good fresh cheap source of oysters so I am going to use that route.

There is potentially 80mg of zinc per pack of oysters that I get, so I will try for one daily. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Although zinc is a very effective aromatase inhibitor I think it should rarely, if ever, be supplemented. It is known to displace copper and while preparations with 10-15% copper are common we don't know if copper imbalance is the only derangement it causes. A common side-effect of taking zinc for a few months is increased grey hair and low thyroid, both due to low copper. Also, most supplements come in dodgy forms such as -aspartate or -citrate.

Just goes to show why Ray isn't known for supplementing zinc by itself, favoring instead oysters, meat.

 

[jyb]

The first was a lecture I sat in on years ago. The researcher said that rats on a high fat diet experienced lower metabolisms and lower signs of health UNLESS they were given extra zinc in their diet.

It's a bit surprising than a single mineral would do that.

 

[heatherleary]

Zinc is really effective as an aromatase inhibitor, and it is a common mineral i avoid in my routine, so be careful.

 

[jyb]

Although zinc is a very effective aromatase inhibitor I think it should rarely, if ever, be supplemented. It is known to displace copper

Isn't that a problem if one is relying on weekly oysters (or liver) for copper, as they are high in zinc - or is that just a consequence of synthetic supplementation only?

All I know in terms of interaction is that calcium doesn't interfere with copper, but does with iron - so far so good for the idea of drinking milk and coffee in a meal containing meat.

 

[Peata]

I read that alcohol can cause zinc deficiency. I had alcohol daily for a long time.

I'm still using zinc, in fact, using more now that I'm in the 2nd half of my cycle because it's the only thing that is really keeping the acne down.

In other words, why is zinc working better for me than anything else, Ray Peat diet or the other supps?

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Although zinc is a very effective aromatase inhibitor I think it should rarely, if ever, be supplemented. It is known to displace copper

Isn't that a problem if one is relying on weekly oysters (or liver) for copper, as they are high in zinc - or is that just a consequence of synthetic supplementation only?

All I know in terms of interaction is that calcium doesn't interfere with copper, but does with iron - so far so good for the idea of drinking milk and coffee in a meal containing meat.

Supplementing synthetic zinc is a problem and since it's very effective, it's difficult to not overdo it. Who knows what it displaces besides copper and iron. Sounds like that's why Ray isn't known for suggesting it as a supplement.

Oysters are the best source of it by far although it's a pity that they cost the earth.

 

[Peata]

At this point in cycle, I'm having to take 2 or 3 zinc tablets per day (50 mg. each) to stay on top of the acne. No big cysts, but I have inflamed pimples in all the places the cysts like to come up - under jawline, neck, lower half of face. So because I am where I am in my cycle, despite the zinc, I am getting acne, but it's still not as bad as cysts. I really think I could do 4 or more zinc per day at this point. My period should start any day now, and things should get better. Then I plan to back off the zinc again (if my acne will let me) until the 2nd half the cycle again.

Again, I'm not sure WHY the zinc is what seems to be what's helping the most as far as acne. It may be the biggest helper in my other estrogen dominance symptoms too, I'm not sure. I'm doing great so far with everything else, but lately I've also increased my minerals, take a little more aspirin, so that could also be a help.

Zinc is an aromatase inhibitor. Am I right in that it's keeping fat from producing estrogen? And keeping other hormones from turning into estrogen?

I love taking this zinc and have no noticeable problems. I get my copper quota too. Plus I think despite the high amount, that not all the zinc gluconate in these tablets is available... But I know it's not seen as normal or healthy to take this much zinc. Yet I obviously have to take SOMETHING. I'll make another post if I don't get replies here, but I'm going to ask what are other aromatase inhibitors that are safer and as readily available as zinc?

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

If zinc is so effective for you, it's likely you do have a deficiency. The problem comes by supplementing zinc only. Oysters would be the best alternative since they contain a wide distribution of minerals that prevent each other from causing toxicity.

Among natural substances, grape seed extract, resveratrol (dodgy, according to Peat), naringin, calcium D-glucarate, Diindolylmethane (DIM) (also not favored by Peat) come to mind. Also you could try upping your insoluble fiber intake, much like Ray's recommendation of raw carrots. Of course there is progesterone which seems to be pretty effective at actually reducing estrogenic symptoms.

For further reading consult: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074486/

 

[Peata]

I eat oysters as much as I can stand, but by themselves it's still not enough zinc. Even if I eat a whole can. I still have to supplement over the day. I'm hoping when this cycle ends and progesterone is naturally more balanced, that I can cut back on the zinc supplement, at least for a couple weeks.

Thanks for the other AI suggestions. I'll look into calcium d-glucarate and upping my insoluble fiber.

For some reason, when I was mega-dosing on progest-E the last couple cycles, it didn't seem to help at all. I thought it was at first like many things, but then all the symptoms came on full force. I don't know why I was resistant to it. This cycle I've barely taken any, but I've been using it on my face 2x day, as a moisturizer.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Oysters vary a lot in the amount of zinc they contain. Perhaps you could try other varieties of oyster.

Same thing goes with Progest-E, how about trying another form of progesterone such as Prometrium @ 100-200 mg/day. Also, progesterone requires thyroid to work, and vice versa. So it takes some doing getting the balance right. Selenium and copper are common deficiencies that inhibit the action of thyroid.

 

[Peata]

I'm not on any thyroid, not sure if I mentioned that before.

Trying to stay off prescriptions if possible. The only one I take is Metformin. I'm looking into taking vitex as a means of increasing progesterone.

Also, for minerals, I've been trying to make sure I get at least the RDA of them. Before I was mostly focused on calcium and sodium, but now I'm working more on potassium, magnesium. Also making sure to get copper, especially with the zinc I'm taking. And selenium. I sometimes take 1/4 of a multivitamin for people 50 and over (since it's iron-free) and it has minerals too.

Thanks again for helping me with this, UW.

 

[chris]

Anyone know a good zinc/copper ratio? Would there be any issues with taking zinc and copper supplements long term at a good ratio?

 

[Ari]

Alright, so for an update:

I've been eating oysters daily since my last post, with 2 days of shrimp randomly in there. Today I finally reached the point where the smell of oysters disgust me, and I'm guessing it means I got whatever I needed from them.


So as far as progress goes... After the first week of oysters I noticed scars on my body starting to fade much quicker than they normally do (I get cut working outside a lot), and I had more energy than normal, but it wasn't anything life changing.

After week 2 I feel like a completely different person. I have energy and the digestive power of a kid again, but I made a few other changes that make me think it wasn't just the oysters. I upped my OJ intake to 2L per day, take 10k IU of vitamin D daily (and get lots of sunlight if I can), increased the salt to about 2-3 teaspoons, do red light therapy a lot, and eat something sour with each protein heavy meal (lemon/lime, vinegar, etc)


As far as acne/pimples go I can say that my skin is much smoother and glows more, but I never got pimples on my face. On my body I do sometimes but those didn't go away or change much - I think dairy causes those. I am going to try cutting out milk and doing only parmigianno for my dairy.

I'm really craving liver now since I haven't had any since I started this oyster thing.

 

[loess]

That's awesome, Ari, great to hear you are thriving on the oysters. I do maybe 6 oysters once a week, would like to do more but I can't afford the cost. I just picked up a bottle of liquid ionic zinc and plan to use it in addition to oysters for now. It has a bit of copper in there as well. Anybody see any evil bad stuff in the ingredient label of that product?

eat something sour with each protein heavy meal (lemon/lime, vinegar, etc)

Haven't heard about this trick in my Peatxploration yet, can you elaborate on the basis for doing that?

 

[Ari]

The sour food with meat thing may only be peat friendly if you apply some sideways logic. I never read about it here, but my reasoning for doing it is that it greatly improves digestion via stimulation of stomach acid production (lemon, lime, vinegar, ginger, fermented foods all stimulate stomach acid, so does coffee too though). Some of those things listed are very peat unfriendly. But I think lemons and limes are fine?

I first got the idea from Danny Roddys book 'Peat Whisperer' which showed meals containing OJ + Milk&Coffee + Meat/Cheese. Then I remembered how basically all meals in my mothers culture had limes or lemons with meat (less vitamin C than a glass of OJ).

The first thing to think of is the fact that I am basically taking in high amounts of vitamin C with my meats which is a bad thing as far as iron absorption. But the improvement in digestion is so much that I can't go back to eating my meats with something sugary like I used to. Instead I now eat my carbs only after the meat has cleared my stomach (more or less).

Basically, i've been running some 'tests' and if I eat a meat heavy meal with no carbs (!) I can feel warm for about an hour or so as long as there is something sour with the meal.

I think you can get the same effect by drinking OJ with meats but I haven't tried it; based on the book I referenced Peat does that very thing? Who knows.. still experimenting on a daily basis here.

One addition is that if you enjoy starchy foods (a peat grey area?) I wouldn't try and pair them with something sour.. it has always led to bad results for me.

 

[jyb]

The sour food with meat thing may only be peat friendly if you apply some sideways logic. I never read about it here, but my reasoning for doing it is that it greatly improves digestion via stimulation of stomach acid production (lemon, lime, vinegar, ginger, fermented foods all stimulate stomach acid, so does coffee too though). Some of those things listed are very peat unfriendly. But I think lemons and limes are fine?

I first got the idea from Danny Roddys book 'Peat Whisperer' which showed meals containing OJ + Milk&Coffee + Meat/Cheese. Then I remembered how basically all meals in my mothers culture had limes or lemons with meat (less vitamin C than a glass of OJ).

The first thing to think of is the fact that I am basically taking in high amounts of vitamin C with my meats which is a bad thing as far as iron absorption. But the improvement in digestion is so much that I can't go back to eating my meats with something sugary like I used to. Instead I now eat my carbs only after the meat has cleared my stomach (more or less).

Basically, i've been running some 'tests' and if I eat a meat heavy meal with no carbs (!) I can feel warm for about an hour or so as long as there is something sour with the meal.

I think you can get the same effect by drinking OJ with meats but I haven't tried it; based on the book I referenced Peat does that very thing? Who knows.. still experimenting on a daily basis here.

One addition is that if you enjoy starchy foods (a peat grey area?) I wouldn't try and pair them with something sour.. it has always led to bad results for me.

Since vitamin C is a concern, and there is a lot in lemon, why not use vinegar or coffee?

Also, I don't see why starch with sour would be bad...to the contrary, I think vinegar with potato minimizes the insulin response.

 

[Ari]

I used vinegar just now with eggs. It works well but I don't think it could pair with every food I eat. Instead I will probably try and focus on eating low amounts of meat overall so that iron isn't a big concern in the first place.

Also I hate to say it but i'm not a huge fan of coffee. I tend to drink it medicinally instead of as a beverage.

As for the starch with sour thing, I have no idea why it doesn't work for me, but every time i've tried it I have felt bad. But that's not a huge area for me to explore either since I don't each much starch. Last time I had starch of any kind was 4 days ago. I tried potatoes for a while to see how they were and Orange Juice works better for me.

If I were ever completely broke though I could see myself surviving on potatoes and butter without too many problems.

 

[Peata]

Anyone know a good zinc/copper ratio? Would there be any issues with taking zinc and copper supplements long term at a good ratio?

I don't know, but with the amount of zinc I'm taking, I doubt it would be safe to supplement the proper ratio of copper too.

Most days lately, I'm getting 1 mg copper to 100-175 mg. zinc.

On Mondays I eat oysters, so my copper goes up to 7-8 mg.