Is ionized copper and zinc (zinc sulphate) absorbed easier ?

[Motif]

I still struggle to get both up. It just doesn’t work and I don’t know what to do.

any ideas ?


my blood test for zinc , copper and ceruloplasmin came back only slightly higher than last time and this after weeks of liver twice a week and other copper high stuff. After that zinc and copper supplements (zinc 15 mg and copper 8), after this 6 weeks of two oysters daily and 2 mg copper.


I’m desperate

 

[LauriePartridge]

Hi Motif! I have struggled a lot with my zinc/copper balance and I have come across some ideas that have helped me. I thought I'd share:

There is speculation that copper is absorbed in the stomach and zinc in the intestines. ( I can't submit links because I'm new but I can later if you need them and can't find the right documentation). There is also research that shows people with gastric bypass are in particular risk of copper malabsorption because of changes to their stomach. And certain sources cite ant acids and ppis including omeprazole as interfering with copper absorption. There are many references that cite things like calcium, magnesium carbonate/oxide as reducing stomach acid and affecting copper absorption. So having good stomach acid seems critical to copper absorption.

For years I couldn't understand why I always had a zinc taste in my mouth. My blood tests showed zinc in the high normal range and copper in the low range. My white blood cell count would be low too, especially if I supplemented with zinc. Adding more copper helped but not that much. Even in diet or supplement. But too much dietary zinc or supplemental zinc felt like poison to me.

But recently I read some research that sparked my interest about B6. Deanna Minich has gathered a lot of information about mineral and vitamin interactions. She said "chronic and acute vit B6 deficiency increases intestinal uptake of zinc but serum zinc levels decrease, demonstrating an impairment of zinc utilitzation" referencing a study of zinc, copper, iron absorption in vit B6 deficient rats. The study concluded: "B6 depletion ...may alter zinc metabolism and inhibit copper absorption." So once I realized I was deficient in B6 usually (from cronometer) and started eating more animal sources like tuna and some pork and bananas, my zinc taste went away. And now when I try to supplement with ionic copper (copper sulfate) I get estrogenic effects. I'm thinking that my low B6 (or inefficient B6) impaired my copper metabolism and that my reaction to the copper supplement means I don't need it any more and would be getting too much if I used it.

Also copper glycinate gave me panic attacks immediately after ingesting it. I can't do glycine - it agitates me. I tolerated the ionic copper fine but I know that copper and sulfur compete with each other so I don't know how much copper you actually absorb with sulfur in the mix. I used Good State and tolerated it very well though.

Also beef liver is really tricky as a copper source. Unless you're eating grain fed liver it's possible your'e getting no copper at all. There's a study by Darwish in 2016 that compared animal nutrition in grass-fed and grain fed animals including beef. Their research showed Vit A levels at least 4-5 times higher in grass-fed than in grain fed. If you look up New Zealand (grass fed) beef liver on cronometer, you will see crazy high A levels and to my shock, almost no copper levels and weird crazy high manganese levels. I ate grass-fed liver for a year and a half and always got A toxicity from it like my hair would fall out, skin would peel, horrible headaches and neuropathy( that was a couple of months of eating 1 ounce a day). And then I realized why - it's the grass-fed liver. There is also a connection between vit A and zinc and copper as well. I read a study about it but can reference it later if you need to know. Anyway I couldn't believe how low the copper is in grass-fed liver (if the data is accurate). And my low copper symptoms didn't improve at all while eating that liver.

You have to really check your oyster nutrition. I get mine flash frozen from Vital Choice. Pacific. Even cooking two of those might only be like 15 grams and about .4 mg of copper which is not super huge. Last night I had 3 and they weighed 24 grams total and gave me about .8 mgs.

Good luck!

 

[LauriePartridge]

Hi Motif! I have struggled a lot with my zinc/copper balance and I have come across some ideas that have helped me. I thought I'd share:

There is speculation that copper is absorbed in the stomach and zinc in the intestines. ( I can't submit links because I'm new but I can later if you need them and can't find the right documentation). There is also research that shows people with gastric bypass are in particular risk of copper malabsorption because of changes to their stomach. And certain sources cite ant acids and ppis including omeprazole as interfering with copper absorption. There are many references that cite things like calcium, magnesium carbonate/oxide as reducing stomach acid and affecting copper absorption. So having good stomach acid seems critical to copper absorption.

For years I couldn't understand why I always had a zinc taste in my mouth. My blood tests showed zinc in the high normal range and copper in the low range. My white blood cell count would be low too, especially if I supplemented with zinc. Adding more copper helped but not that much. Even in diet or supplement. But too much dietary zinc or supplemental zinc felt like poison to me.

But recently I read some research that sparked my interest about B6. Deanna Minich has gathered a lot of information about mineral and vitamin interactions. She said "chronic and acute vit B6 deficiency increases intestinal uptake of zinc but serum zinc levels decrease, demonstrating an impairment of zinc utilitzation" referencing a study of zinc, copper, iron absorption in vit B6 deficient rats. The study concluded: "B6 depletion ...may alter zinc metabolism and inhibit copper absorption." So once I realized I was deficient in B6 usually (from cronometer) and started eating more animal sources like tuna and some pork and bananas, my zinc taste went away. And now when I try to supplement with ionic copper (copper sulfate) I get estrogenic effects. I'm thinking that my low B6 (or inefficient B6) impaired my copper metabolism and that my reaction to the copper supplement means I don't need it any more and would be getting too much if I used it.

Also copper glycinate gave me panic attacks immediately after ingesting it. I can't do glycine - it agitates me. I tolerated the ionic copper fine but I know that copper and sulfur compete with each other so I don't know how much copper you actually absorb with sulfur in the mix. I used Good State and tolerated it very well though.

Also beef liver is really tricky as a copper source. Unless you're eating grain fed liver it's possible your'e getting no copper at all. There's a study by Darwish in 2016 that compared animal nutrition in grass-fed and grain fed animals including beef. Their research showed Vit A levels at least 4-5 times higher in grass-fed than in grain fed. If you look up New Zealand (grass fed) beef liver on cronometer, you will see crazy high A levels and to my shock, almost no copper levels and weird crazy high manganese levels. I ate grass-fed liver for a year and a half and always got A toxicity from it like my hair would fall out, skin would peel, horrible headaches and neuropathy( that was a couple of months of eating 1 ounce a day). And then I realized why - it's the grass-fed liver. There is also a connection between vit A and zinc and copper as well. I read a study about it but can reference it later if you need to know. Anyway I couldn't believe how low the copper is in grass-fed liver (if the data is accurate). And my low copper symptoms didn't improve at all while eating that liver.

You have to really check your oyster nutrition. I get mine flash frozen from Vital Choice. Pacific. Even cooking two of those might only be like 15 grams and about .4 mg of copper which is not super huge. Last night I had 3 and they weighed 24 grams total and gave me about .8 mgs.

Good luck!

I mean the Vitamin A in grass-fed beef liver was about 4-5 times higher than in grain fed cows.

 

[Motif]

Hi Motif! I have struggled a lot with my zinc/copper balance and I have come across some ideas that have helped me. I thought I'd share:

There is speculation that copper is absorbed in the stomach and zinc in the intestines. ( I can't submit links because I'm new but I can later if you need them and can't find the right documentation). There is also research that shows people with gastric bypass are in particular risk of copper malabsorption because of changes to their stomach. And certain sources cite ant acids and ppis including omeprazole as interfering with copper absorption. There are many references that cite things like calcium, magnesium carbonate/oxide as reducing stomach acid and affecting copper absorption. So having good stomach acid seems critical to copper absorption.

For years I couldn't understand why I always had a zinc taste in my mouth. My blood tests showed zinc in the high normal range and copper in the low range. My white blood cell count would be low too, especially if I supplemented with zinc. Adding more copper helped but not that much. Even in diet or supplement. But too much dietary zinc or supplemental zinc felt like poison to me.

But recently I read some research that sparked my interest about B6. Deanna Minich has gathered a lot of information about mineral and vitamin interactions. She said "chronic and acute vit B6 deficiency increases intestinal uptake of zinc but serum zinc levels decrease, demonstrating an impairment of zinc utilitzation" referencing a study of zinc, copper, iron absorption in vit B6 deficient rats. The study concluded: "B6 depletion ...may alter zinc metabolism and inhibit copper absorption." So once I realized I was deficient in B6 usually (from cronometer) and started eating more animal sources like tuna and some pork and bananas, my zinc taste went away. And now when I try to supplement with ionic copper (copper sulfate) I get estrogenic effects. I'm thinking that my low B6 (or inefficient B6) impaired my copper metabolism and that my reaction to the copper supplement means I don't need it any more and would be getting too much if I used it.

Also copper glycinate gave me panic attacks immediately after ingesting it. I can't do glycine - it agitates me. I tolerated the ionic copper fine but I know that copper and sulfur compete with each other so I don't know how much copper you actually absorb with sulfur in the mix. I used Good State and tolerated it very well though.

Also beef liver is really tricky as a copper source. Unless you're eating grain fed liver it's possible your'e getting no copper at all. There's a study by Darwish in 2016 that compared animal nutrition in grass-fed and grain fed animals including beef. Their research showed Vit A levels at least 4-5 times higher in grass-fed than in grain fed. If you look up New Zealand (grass fed) beef liver on cronometer, you will see crazy high A levels and to my shock, almost no copper levels and weird crazy high manganese levels. I ate grass-fed liver for a year and a half and always got A toxicity from it like my hair would fall out, skin would peel, horrible headaches and neuropathy( that was a couple of months of eating 1 ounce a day). And then I realized why - it's the grass-fed liver. There is also a connection between vit A and zinc and copper as well. I read a study about it but can reference it later if you need to know. Anyway I couldn't believe how low the copper is in grass-fed liver (if the data is accurate). And my low copper symptoms didn't improve at all while eating that liver.

You have to really check your oyster nutrition. I get mine flash frozen from Vital Choice. Pacific. Even cooking two of those might only be like 15 grams and about .4 mg of copper which is not super huge. Last night I had 3 and they weighed 24 grams total and gave me about .8 mgs.

Good luck!

No idea why I didn’t see this before.
thanks for that!

maybe the liver I was eating over months really had no copper, cause my levels were still low after.

i was just reading that zinc citrate is absorbed best and copper bisglycinate is better than other forms. No idea if true. I also was reading zinc needs selenium.

what is your opinion on taking zinc and copper together or with distance? I was reading different opinions on that

 

[LauriePartridge]

No idea why I didn’t see this before.
thanks for that!

maybe the liver I was eating over months really had no copper, cause my levels were still low after.

i was just reading that zinc citrate is absorbed best and copper bisglycinate is better than other forms. No idea if true. I also was reading zinc needs selenium.

what is your opinion on taking zinc and copper together or with distance? I was reading different opinions on that

Long answer:

Well just from experience, not supplementing copper at all and supplementing zinc just caused big problems for me like I would get brain fog, cold and terrible fatigue along with finger swelling w/o copper. Then I tried supplementing copper along side the zinc but it didn't seem to be enough - I think I did like 1 mg copper per 15 mgs zinc and still had trouble. So I then later tried 2 mgs copper along side 15 mgs of zinc and it helped but I still seemed to have too much zinc (like always a zinc taste but not so bad low copper symptoms). I think if I were to do it again, I would definitely take them separately. Because they compete and zinc is more powerful so it probably kicks out the copper right away. But if you have time to absorb the copper without any interference, like taking the zinc far apart from the copper it might be more successful. I would also take the copper with a high protein meal (for me it's dinner) so you get enough stomach acid to digest it. The protein stimulates stomach acid if you start eating it first in your meal. And don't take it with any kind of ant acid. I don't know if you do eggshells or calcium carbonate but that will interfere with copper digestion because of the ant acid effects.

Short answer: Try separating them

 

[Motif]

Long answer:

Well just from experience, not supplementing copper at all and supplementing zinc just caused big problems for me like I would get brain fog, cold and terrible fatigue along with finger swelling w/o copper. Then I tried supplementing copper along side the zinc but it didn't seem to be enough - I think I did like 1 mg copper per 15 mgs zinc and still had trouble. So I then later tried 2 mgs copper along side 15 mgs of zinc and it helped but I still seemed to have too much zinc (like always a zinc taste but not so bad low copper symptoms). I think if I were to do it again, I would definitely take them separately. Because they compete and zinc is more powerful so it probably kicks out the copper right away. But if you have time to absorb the copper without any interference, like taking the zinc far apart from the copper it might be more successful. I would also take the copper with a high protein meal (for me it's dinner) so you get enough stomach acid to digest it. The protein stimulates stomach acid if you start eating it first in your meal. And don't take it with any kind of ant acid. I don't know if you do eggshells or calcium carbonate but that will interfere with copper digestion because of the ant acid effects.

Short answer: Try separating them

Thanks! I will take zinc in the morning to noon and copper in the evening or other way around.

good to know that protein increases stomach acid! Maybe I will add some hcl betaine to the supplements too

 

[LauriePartridge]

That sounds like a good plan!

 

[Motif]

That sounds like a good plan!

Let’s see. Will get another blood test in maybe a month then