Why does nothing beat SERMs for me? (Toremifene specifically)

[Charger]

I've been going down the bioenergetic/hormone optimization rabbit hole since experiencing PFS symptoms back in late 2019. I've experimented with a lot of things along the way, if you'd look into my drawers, you'd think I'm insane with the amount of supplements I own all with the goal of reaching the optimal state of mind and wellbeing and maintaining it as much as possible.

I've made a lot of improvements that have resulted in higher quality of life, but when it comes to optimizing testosterone/androgens, I still haven't found that sweet spot and the closest I've come is when utilizing SERMs such as Toremifene. When taking Toremifene, I feel all the benefits of testosterone and none of the estrogenic or prolactin issues that come with any other solution..

Topical testosterone (low dose 1-3mg): I feel calmer and more resilient , but like some other users have noted, I feel more mentally blank/autistic (for lack of a better word.) Not necessarily more confident, social, or driven.

Injectable testosterone (Daily proprionate 10-20mg): Feel great initially then it always turns to depression, bloat, and lack of motivation. I suspect prolactin as it seems to rise with guys on TRT, seems like a pain to manage.

Androsterone and 11-Keto-DHT: Both provide benefits, I use androsterone daily. It helps me be more motivated, driven, reduces pain/discomfort from physical activity, and seems to result in more respect from others. 11-Keto-DHT seems more noticable in a mind clearing sense, makes me less serious and more playful. But sometimes neither of these pull me out of an anxious/low confident state the way a SERM will.

Phenylpiracetam: More confidence, focus, and fearlessness when used 1-2 times a week, more seems to develop tolerance and makes it useless. Somewhat similar feeling to Androsterone.

Gonadin+: More resilience and focus, but easily spills over into making me too serious and unable to have a laid back/social demeanor, more robotic.

Pansterone (Preg/DHEA) (1-4mg): More resilient to stress at the expense of being less interested in socializing or interacting with others.

Vitamin E/Tocovit (1 drop): When used sporadically, it has given me a clear mind/friendly state of wellbeing, but seems to cause fatigue or antiandrogenic effects when used consistently on a daily basis.

Vitamin K2/Kuinone: 1 drop (1-2mg) makes me more resilient to stress, higher doses seems to cause apathy and carelessness.

T3 (50mcg): More energy, relatively stable mood, leaner face.

Proviron: Can make me feel great at times, but is suppressive and rapes hair.

Exemestane: Sometimes just leads to my emotions being turned off without really any added benefits. I would be curious to see if I could get ahold of a 10mg tablet to take smaller dosages more consistently, right now I can only get ahold of the 25mg tablets which I can only split down to 6mg or the liquid Blue Sky drops which I think are just tablets broken up into liquid and not actually dissolved properly. (An idealabs product containing 1-2mg of Exemestane per drop would be awesome if possible, @haidut )

Toremifene: Feels like it raises testosterone (more confidence, sociability, drive, focus) while blocking the estrogenic effects that would come with higher testosterone (no bloat or gyno, leaner/more muscle, normal/bigger balls, no depression). The only noticeable side effects being that consistent dosing tends to lead to low estrogen mental sides such as forgetfulness.

So basically Toremifene seems like the closest thing to single-supplement solution (without suppression) that makes me feel physically and mentally optimal compared to any other option. Supposedly Vitamin E is an estrogen receptor antagonist, but I can't just take Vitamin E + Testosterone and get similar effects. I wonder what it is about my physiology that doesn't respond positively to straight testosterone the way other men seem too. A matter of androgen/estrogen receptor density or something else?

 

[Mister]

Did you try enclomiphene and HCG?

 

[Charger]

Did you try enclomiphene and HCG?

HCG yes, enclomiphene no.

HCG is suppressive and too estrogenic to be something I'd run indefinitely.

 

[Deadpool]

Would you say you got rid of your PFS and what were the things that helped the most other than the hormones listed?

 

[Jayvee]

Have you tried topical DHT? DHT, T3, Ashwagandha and theanine work well for improving my PFS symptoms. I've been making progress in recovery in the last year with these

 

[tasfarelel]

@Charger I don't think anyone will be able to answer your question around toremifene. To me it sounds like an off-taget effect of toremifene, like for example estrogenic action on the brain. Can also be just specific parts of the brain / not the entire brain.

And check the literature on how toremifene influences progesterone production. Could be also an explanation why in your case toremifene is so beneficial while exemestane is not.

 

[Charger]

Have you tried topical DHT? DHT, T3, Ashwagandha and theanine work well for improving my PFS symptoms. I've been making progress in recovery in the last year with these

I've used topical DHT, it provides a calming effect mostly, and again I'd have to be wary of suppression which is something I'd like to not have to consider.

Ashwagandha I won't touch just because of the potential SSRI-like side effects some people experience, but I take Phosphatidylserine daily which has noticeably strong effects on cortisol and mood. Reading the positive effects that people have with Ashwagandha sounds very similar to those taking PS, so I don't think I'm missing much.

I get theanine through the Monster energy I have daily. 50mcg T3 is already a daily supplement.

@Charger I don't think anyone will be able to answer your question around toremifene. To me it sounds like an off-taget effect of toremifene, like for example estrogenic action on the brain. Can also be just specific parts of the brain / not the entire brain.

And check the literature on how toremifene influences progesterone production. Could be also an explanation why in your case toremifene is so beneficial while exemestane is not.

Progesterone supplementation initially has a great effect on mood then rapidly becomes feminizing in my experience. I think one of the reasons why Toremifene (and also Nolva in some cases) has a positive effect on wellbeing and mood is its DAT inhibition. I already use multiple dopaminergics and even an herbal DAT inhibitor (Catuaba Bark) already, not sure how else I could realistically suppress prolactin more than I already am to explain why that would be the difference maker. But maybe even the multiple supplements I use aren't going to compare to a pharmacological DAT inhibitor, whether it's a SERM or ADHD medication.

As far as Exemestane vs Toremifene, I feel like Exemestane does lower my estrogen but doesn't result in dopaminergic benefits you'd expect with higher Testosterone, there's probably a microdose sweet spot to where I could get something similar to Toremifene, but again it's hard to do so with 25mg tablets. Maybe I can look into getting pure Exemestane powder and making a topical version.

 

[wpconway25]

Have you tried topical DHT? DHT, T3, Ashwagandha and theanine work well for improving my PFS symptoms. I've been making progress in recovery in the last year with these

Hey Man. I have read a lot of your posts about PFS and was wondering if I could pick your brain about some things. I have a lot of the same symptoms especially the sexual ones and am really struggling. Im 22 and am terrified this is all permanent. My testosterone and thyroid hormones were below range and am currently on trt and T3 and was hoping to get some guidance. Also planning on meeting with a GI to look into gut issues. Was also wondering what you wish you knew when you first started dealing with symptoms? And any general advice

 

[tasfarelel]

Tanks @Charger for the information on the DAT enzyme.

For dopamine/prolactin - have you tried/considered pramipexole?