• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

PFS - Down-regulating Androgen Receptors with DHT

Dehdly

Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
On the 26th April I started taking pure DHT transdermally mixed in a 90% DMSO / 10% PEG400 solution to down regulate androgen receptors that have been left over expressed by Finasteride for 2 years.

My primary symptom of PFS is poor sleep, characterised by eye bags and an inability to function throughout the day - I need naps half way through or my brain feels like it’s in pain. This is the exact feeling I had whilst on Finasteride, however whilst on Finasteride this feeling was much more severe.

I’ve found the application of the solution to be particularly difficult as it’s watery and doesn’t absorb quickly - however I’ve been told that DMSO is the best solvent for skin penetration that isn’t toxic so unsure if there would be a better method.

I have a few questions that seasoned veterans like @ChemHead might be able to help me with:

- I don’t feel any different taking the DHT even at transdermal dosages of 200mg - to know it’s working should I feel different? (it is legit powder)

- how would you prepare the DHT to make application as efficient as possible?

- I’m taking 1 drop Pansterone and 1 drop Androsterone at the same time, is this ok or should I not do this?

Thanks
 

Dehdly

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
You could add testosterone if DHT alone doesn't do anything.

Well I’m also taking HCG to prevent the gonadotropin crash that DHT causes, as it’s an LH analogue and a precursor to testosterone - not sure I want to supplement with testosterone on top of that.

Also testosterone replacement therapy I’ve heard is a dangerous game - some people’s test levels have never recovered once messed with.

I know that all my issues are concerned with sleep, I seem to have an issue with waking up early to go to the toilet which I feel is to do with light sleep.

Why do you feel taking testosterone would help? I’m not an expert in this field so it might be that you’re right.
 

Mister

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2020
Messages
356
Well I’m also taking HCG to prevent the gonadotropin crash that DHT causes, as it’s an LH analogue and a precursor to testosterone - not sure I want to supplement with testosterone on top of that.

Also testosterone replacement therapy I’ve heard is a dangerous game - some people’s test levels have never recovered once messed with.

I know that all my issues are concerned with sleep, I seem to have an issue with waking up early to go to the toilet which I feel is to do with light sleep.

Why do you feel taking testosterone would help? I’m not an expert in this field so it might be that you’re right.
I'm purely basing myself on the protocols that recovered people with PFS. Many don't get better from only a dht derivative but when they add test they do recover.
 

Dehdly

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
I'm purely basing myself on the protocols that recovered people with PFS. Many don't get better from only a dht derivative but when they add test they do recover.
Could you provide some examples of people who have recovered that way? Are there any threads that you’ve read that explicitly state DHT and Test used in conjunction to treat PFS?

Just I need something more substantial than just anecdotal evidence before I start messing directly with test levels.

@ChemHead - as a voice of knowledge regarding PFS and the person who originally theorised androgen receptor desensitisation using DHT, what are your thoughts?
 

Mister

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2020
Messages
356
Could you provide some examples of people who have recovered that way? Are there any threads that you’ve read that explicitly state DHT and Test used in conjunction to treat PFS?

Just I need something more substantial than just anecdotal evidence before I start messing directly with test levels.

@ChemHead - as a voice of knowledge regarding PFS and the person who originally theorised androgen receptor desensitisation using DHT, what are your thoughts?
Yes, here's one: Using steroids in the right combination has brought me back to 90% within a week (UPDATED)

FINAL MAJOR UPDATE
I am back to 90% function. The anti estrogens were helping etc, the testosterone was helping, the proviron not really, masteron not really (i didnt use a high enough dose) but what was really the BIGGEST FREAKING GAMECHANGER was topical DHT

I believe its 10% in DMSO but cant remember for sure

I had some of it left which i bought of a certain website like 4 years ago and given up on. I decided to try it and I applied it to my balls, penis, and gooch area. I kept doing this and on the second day I got a spontanious erection in the daytime without stimulation. Something which hasnt happened for like 4 years

Its been 3-4 days of me using it now and my erections just get harder and harder every day. My **** sensitivity is back but in a wierd way I have way more control of when I cum now; no more premature ejaculation symptoms. Also orgasms are way stronger

Also, while the proviron and masteron didnt do this, topical DHT has allowed me to greatly reduce my dose of AIs while preventing gyno symptoms
Probably wont post here again unless I run into future problem

BTW this goes without saying but if you use this without a test base or HCG and crash your natural testoserone production and thus your estrogen too it probably wont do much for you. When I used before when i was not on steroids it did very little for me so I never thought much of it




Also Chemhead isn't the one who originally theorised androgen receptor desensitisation, that theory is going around for a long time in the PFS community.

Btw, is your libido good?
 

EustaceBagge

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Amsterdam
I don't have any experience on this topic but I would like to add that when you used finasteride you didn't **** up your androgen receptors, you messed up 5AR. So it would perhaps be more logical to combine T and DHT to also shock your 5AR instead of solely focusing on androgen receptors?

And I would like to ask you how finasteride influenced your behavior, so not erection issues or w/e but just the neurosteroid side caused by a lack of DHT.
 

Dehdly

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
Yes, here's one: Using steroids in the right combination has brought me back to 90% within a week (UPDATED)

FINAL MAJOR UPDATE
I am back to 90% function. The anti estrogens were helping etc, the testosterone was helping, the proviron not really, masteron not really (i didnt use a high enough dose) but what was really the BIGGEST FREAKING GAMECHANGER was topical DHT

I believe its 10% in DMSO but cant remember for sure

I had some of it left which i bought of a certain website like 4 years ago and given up on. I decided to try it and I applied it to my balls, penis, and gooch area. I kept doing this and on the second day I got a spontanious erection in the daytime without stimulation. Something which hasnt happened for like 4 years

Its been 3-4 days of me using it now and my erections just get harder and harder every day. My **** sensitivity is back but in a wierd way I have way more control of when I cum now; no more premature ejaculation symptoms. Also orgasms are way stronger

Also, while the proviron and masteron didnt do this, topical DHT has allowed me to greatly reduce my dose of AIs while preventing gyno symptoms
Probably wont post here again unless I run into future problem

BTW this goes without saying but if you use this without a test base or HCG and crash your natural testoserone production and thus your estrogen too it probably wont do much for you. When I used before when i was not on steroids it did very little for me so I never thought much of it



Also Chemhead isn't the one who originally theorised androgen receptor desensitisation, that theory is going around for a long time in the PFS community.

Btw, is your libido good?
Yes, here's one: Using steroids in the right combination has brought me back to 90% within a week (UPDATED)

FINAL MAJOR UPDATE
I am back to 90% function. The anti estrogens were helping etc, the testosterone was helping, the proviron not really, masteron not really (i didnt use a high enough dose) but what was really the BIGGEST FREAKING GAMECHANGER was topical DHT

I believe its 10% in DMSO but cant remember for sure

I had some of it left which i bought of a certain website like 4 years ago and given up on. I decided to try it and I applied it to my balls, penis, and gooch area. I kept doing this and on the second day I got a spontanious erection in the daytime without stimulation. Something which hasnt happened for like 4 years

Its been 3-4 days of me using it now and my erections just get harder and harder every day. My **** sensitivity is back but in a wierd way I have way more control of when I cum now; no more premature ejaculation symptoms. Also orgasms are way stronger

Also, while the proviron and masteron didnt do this, topical DHT has allowed me to greatly reduce my dose of AIs while preventing gyno symptoms
Probably wont post here again unless I run into future problem

BTW this goes without saying but if you use this without a test base or HCG and crash your natural testoserone production and thus your estrogen too it probably wont do much for you. When I used before when i was not on steroids it did very little for me so I never thought much of it



Also Chemhead isn't the one who originally theorised androgen receptor desensitisation, that theory is going around for a long time in the PFS community.

Btw, is your libido good?
Yeah so I’m already using DHT (3 weeks) and it hasn’t made a huge amount of difference. My primary issue is sleep, I’ve tried 5a-Dhp , allo, pansterone, androsterone .. HCG.

ChemHead (and other members as you mentioned) thought that you only feel better after you come off it, but I’m worried I’m not getting enough DHT in - I’m applying roughly 100-200mg topically via DMSO on my scrotum every day but I’m not sure how much is getting absorbed.

I’m wondering if it takes a full 2-month period to build the levels up or expose my androgen receptors to enough androgenic activity.
 

Dehdly

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
I don't have any experience on this topic but I would like to add that when you used finasteride you didn't **** up your androgen receptors, you messed up 5AR. So it would perhaps be more logical to combine T and DHT to also shock your 5AR instead of solely focusing on androgen receptors?

And I would like to ask you how finasteride influenced your behavior, so not erection issues or w/e but just the neurosteroid side caused by a lack of DHT.
But I’m already using HCG (500 IU every 3rd day) alongside DHT @ 100-200mg topically (DMSO 90%). Not sure how much more I can shock 5ar ..

Would HCG work in the same way to shock 5ar as TRT would? If not then what form of testosterone would you use?

I’m kinda clutching at straws here ..

I can’t remember what I was like sexually before Finasteride, I know during Fin was sexually ****88 - but it all came back when I used HCG, however maybe I struggle with erections a little more (not really sure). I know for a fact, I used to shoot cum and now I don’t, sperm quality is the same but less semen production - would love to solve that as I loved shooting big loads.

My libido is still high, still swiping on bumble a lot and wanting to **** women a lot. I still look at women and feel the urge if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately I’ve kinda forgotten what the ‘old me’ was like but I know that something isn’t quite right.
 

EustaceBagge

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Amsterdam
But I’m already using HCG (500 IU every 3rd day) alongside DHT @ 100-200mg topically (DMSO 90%). Not sure how much more I can shock 5ar ..

Would HCG work in the same way to shock 5ar as TRT would? If not then what form of testosterone would you use?

I’m kinda clutching at straws here ..

I can’t remember what I was like sexually before Finasteride, I know during Fin was sexually ****88 - but it all came back when I used HCG, however maybe I struggle with erections a little more (not really sure). I know for a fact, I used to shoot cum and now I don’t, sperm quality is the same but less semen production - would love to solve that as I loved shooting big loads.

My libido is still high, still swiping on bumble a lot and wanting to **** women a lot. I still look at women and feel the urge if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately I’ve kinda forgotten what the ‘old me’ was like but I know that something isn’t quite right.
Steroid boards like Meso RX often claim that HCG in general works quite estrogenically, but this is of course dependent on how you metabolize hormones downstream as HCG just shocks production of hormones in general.

K2 influences how hormones are metabolized and it generally makes you more androgenic so that might help.

Otherwise an aromatase inhibitor might help by increasing your testosterone thus making more testosterone available to be metabolized into DHT.

Steroid users are often infertile at certain doses, but what is interesting is that once you pass into the extreme high doses you suddenly might become fertile again because the hormones in the blood can pass into the testes. This is how some pros get women pregnant even though they are on cycle.

You might try a testosterone cycle at 500mg/week with decent aromatase inhibition to really shock the system in general. Be prepared to lose hair though, but as your using DHT I don't think that matters.

I feel for you your situation is pretty difficult hope I gave you some ideas.


EDIT:
"But I’m already using HCG (500 IU every 3rd day) alongside DHT @ 100-200mg topically (DMSO 90%). Not sure how much more I can shock 5ar .."

Like I said by using DHT your shocking the ANDROGEN RECEPTOR, NOT 5AR.

You can only shock 5AR through stuff that can be metabolized by it, thus TESTOSTERONE.

But if you INCREASE TEST, you will also make it possible it gets metabolized into ESTROGEN through aromatase.

And if you read what CHEMHEAD posted, he stated that proviron etc. didn't help, but ANTI-ESTROGENS did.

So try arimidex, letrozole, aromasin or another anti-aromatase, and if it is not enough shock the system even further by adding testosterone.

My 2 cents. Ask chemhead for confirmation though he has experience.
 

Dehdly

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
Steroid boards like Meso RX often claim that HCG in general works quite estrogenically, but this is of course dependent on how you metabolize hormones downstream as HCG just shocks production of hormones in general.

K2 influences how hormones are metabolized and it generally makes you more androgenic so that might help.

Otherwise an aromatase inhibitor might help by increasing your testosterone thus making more testosterone available to be metabolized into DHT.

Steroid users are often infertile at certain doses, but what is interesting is that once you pass into the extreme high doses you suddenly might become fertile again because the hormones in the blood can pass into the testes. This is how some pros get women pregnant even though they are on cycle.

You might try a testosterone cycle at 500mg/week with decent aromatase inhibition to really shock the system in general. Be prepared to lose hair though, but as your using DHT I don't think that matters.

I feel for you your situation is pretty difficult hope I gave you some ideas.


EDIT:
"But I’m already using HCG (500 IU every 3rd day) alongside DHT @ 100-200mg topically (DMSO 90%). Not sure how much more I can shock 5ar .."

Like I said by using DHT your shocking the ANDROGEN RECEPTOR, NOT 5AR.

You can only shock 5AR through stuff that can be metabolized by it, thus TESTOSTERONE.

But if you INCREASE TEST, you will also make it possible it gets metabolized into ESTROGEN through aromatase.

And if you read what CHEMHEAD posted, he stated that proviron etc. didn't help, but ANTI-ESTROGENS did.

So try arimidex, letrozole, aromasin or another anti-aromatase, and if it is not enough shock the system even further by adding testosterone.

My 2 cents. Ask chemhead for confirmation though he has experience.
Thanks so much for this breakdown, I really appreciate your time in guiding me here.

I thought DHT was antiestrogenic? I have grown some belly fat and feel lethargic most days (mostly because of the low sleep) … but maybe it’s the estrogen?

I also think there is gap in my knowledge when it comes to the terminology of ‘shocking 5ar’. To the best of my understanding, 5ar is created when genetic code tells it to (something that we can’t change), I’ve never heard of the substrate hormone (testosterone) forcing the creation of 5ar. Do you know how this works?

From what I’m understanding, get off the DHT and jump onto an aromatase inhibitor to increase test, lower estrogen and then the testosterone’s presence will force the creation of more 5ar? (Still need some science see to how that works)

What about the HCG though? if I’m taking an aromatase inhibitor, will I need the HCG? I doubt it as the aromatase inhibitor is already allowing the body to retain higher levels of test anyway. However, how does the body know to metabolise this into DHT, if the 5ar pathway is severely down regulated - won’t my test levels just stay very high?

@ChemHead - I know you’re probably busy, but if you could weigh in here I’d really appreciate it.
 

EustaceBagge

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Amsterdam
Thanks so much for this breakdown, I really appreciate your time in guiding me here.

I thought DHT was antiestrogenic? I have grown some belly fat and feel lethargic most days (mostly because of the low sleep) … but maybe it’s the estrogen?

I also think there is gap in my knowledge when it comes to the terminology of ‘shocking 5ar’. To the best of my understanding, 5ar is created when genetic code tells it to (something that we can’t change), I’ve never heard of the substrate hormone (testosterone) forcing the creation of 5ar. Do you know how this works?

From what I’m understanding, get off the DHT and jump onto an aromatase inhibitor to increase test, lower estrogen and then the testosterone’s presence will force the creation of more 5ar? (Still need some science see to how that works)

What about the HCG though? if I’m taking an aromatase inhibitor, will I need the HCG? I doubt it as the aromatase inhibitor is already allowing the body to retain higher levels of test anyway. However, how does the body know to metabolise this into DHT, if the 5ar pathway is severely down regulated - won’t my test levels just stay very high?

@ChemHead - I know you’re probably busy, but if you could weigh in here I’d really appreciate it.
I do not know how testosterone would create 5AR, but I also do not see how DHT would as DHT doesn't touch 5AR, testosterone does.

But from Chemhead's protocol and sound logic, it seems to be a better option to opt for an aromatase inhibitor to make sure your hormones are not metabolized into estrogen to give them the chance to metabolize into DHT instead.

If your natural testosterone production is not compromised, so if your balls still operate and create testosterone without HCG, yes, you can stop using HCG and DHT. Add an aromatase inhibitor and be observant to changes.

If this doesn't seem to result in the desired effect, a more drastic approach may be undertaken by taking a relatively high dose of testosterone (300mg+) together with ample amounts of an anti-aromatase to really let the body use the few remaining 5AR receptors you have.

Here is an article from Hans on how to optimize DHT (by increasing 5AR):

It tells you what messes up 5AR and what increases it, may also be worth looking into.

Also know that if your going to opt for the steroid cycle route, you will need to restart your natural testosterone production again after cessation, that may require some reading as well: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/comprehensive-guide-to-pct.134353228/

And if you gained belly fat on 200mg DHT, it may be bunk or your just overeating out of stress...
 

Dehdly

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
I do not know how testosterone would create 5AR, but I also do not see how DHT would as DHT doesn't touch 5AR, testosterone does.

But from Chemhead's protocol and sound logic, it seems to be a better option to opt for an aromatase inhibitor to make sure your hormones are not metabolized into estrogen to give them the chance to metabolize into DHT instead.

If your natural testosterone production is not compromised, so if your balls still operate and create testosterone without HCG, yes, you can stop using HCG and DHT. Add an aromatase inhibitor and be observant to changes.

If this doesn't seem to result in the desired effect, a more drastic approach may be undertaken by taking a relatively high dose of testosterone (300mg+) together with ample amounts of an anti-aromatase to really let the body use the few remaining 5AR receptors you have.

Here is an article from Hans on how to optimize DHT (by increasing 5AR):

It tells you what messes up 5AR and what increases it, may also be worth looking into.

Also know that if your going to opt for the steroid cycle route, you will need to restart your natural testosterone production again after cessation, that may require some reading as well: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/comprehensive-guide-to-pct.134353228/

And if you gained belly fat on 200mg DHT, it may be bunk or your just overeating out of stress...
Ok looks like I have some reading to do as I want to understand how leaving my body with enough testosterone as a substrate will upregulate 5ar activity - especially before going on TRT. I’m just very worried about permanently tanking test levels without the cycling approach - I absolutely do not want to flood my body with testosterone alongside an aromatase inhibitor, only for it to just stay as testosterone!

I haven’t gain belly fat on DHT, I gained belly fat after stopping the use of Finasteride which is why I feel you may be correct about estrogen dominance.

I’ve been reading about different types of aromatase inhibitors, sounds like Letrozole is the best out of the three, however I’m unsure on the dosage. Online it says that a 2.5mg dose every day is normal, would you start off with this or go lower to start with?
 

EustaceBagge

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Amsterdam
I would say use Aromasin at 6.25 eod and increase to 25mg ED at the worst (building up slowly in case it doesnt work as intended).
Otherwise letrozole at 2.5mg will crash estrogen, in case u want that go for it but otherwise start at 0.5 mg eod and increase to 1mg+ slowly.
With arimidex 0.5mg eod, again building up if needed.


States how much you would use if you want to bring high E down when your natty.

I don't think exogenous testosterone is needed at all, but it might be a last resort before TRT.

Someone with a similar problem:

Best of luck.
 

Dehdly

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
I would say use Aromasin at 6.25 eod and increase to 25mg ED at the worst (building up slowly in case it doesnt work as intended).
Otherwise letrozole at 2.5mg will crash estrogen, in case u want that go for it but otherwise start at 0.5 mg eod and increase to 1mg+ slowly.
With arimidex 0.5mg eod, again building up if needed.


States how much you would use if you want to bring high E down when your natty.

I don't think exogenous testosterone is needed at all, but it might be a last resort before TRT.

Someone with a similar problem:

Best of luck.
Ok thanks, I’ll give the Aromasin a go. I assume it needs to be taken for a little while to see the effects. Couple of weeks? A month maybe?

I’m really sceptical about the test treatment however it does seem like that’s the only road after my DHT supplementation.

I have tyromix (T4/T3) too which I’m thinking of adding into the stack at 1/2 drops a day.

I remember my mate taking anavar and feeling top of the world, what’s the difference between taking anavar and bio-identical test? He said he slept like a log on anavar which is exactly what I’m looking for - so you feel there could be a method of action that differs between synthetic steroids and bio-identical test supplements like testosterone ethanate?
 

Mister

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2020
Messages
356
Ok thanks, I’ll give the Aromasin a go. I assume it needs to be taken for a little while to see the effects. Couple of weeks? A month maybe?

I’m really sceptical about the test treatment however it does seem like that’s the only road after my DHT supplementation.

I have tyromix (T4/T3) too which I’m thinking of adding into the stack at 1/2 drops a day.

I remember my mate taking anavar and feeling top of the world, what’s the difference between taking anavar and bio-identical test? He said he slept like a log on anavar which is exactly what I’m looking for - so you feel there could be a method of action that differs between synthetic steroids and bio-identical test supplements like testosterone ethanate?
Anavar is a DHT derivative though.
 

Dehdly

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
Anavar is a DHT derivative though.
Ahh ok, didn’t know that. Surprising as I’m taking pure DHT right now and don’t really feel that euphoric feeling you get taking steroids. Maybe it’s because my steroid profile is ****88 from PFS anyway.

Going to start on an aromatase inhibitor and see where I get to. With DHT + Aromatase inhibitor (AI) I might crash my estrogen levels but then I can mediate by lowering dose of AI and/or removing DHT.

Only thing I’m wondering though is how come if I’ve got too much estrogen in my system - why does that affect sleep? I didn’t think there was much of a connection.
 

EustaceBagge

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Amsterdam
Ahh ok, didn’t know that. Surprising as I’m taking pure DHT right now and don’t really feel that euphoric feeling you get taking steroids. Maybe it’s because my steroid profile is ****88 from PFS anyway.

Going to start on an aromatase inhibitor and see where I get to. With DHT + Aromatase inhibitor (AI) I might crash my estrogen levels but then I can mediate by lowering dose of AI and/or removing DHT.

Only thing I’m wondering though is how come if I’ve got too much estrogen in my system - why does that affect sleep? I didn’t think there was much of a connection.
By using DHT you are initiating a shutdown of your natural production, this is not logical at all.

The AI is there so that testosterone doesn't get metabolized into estrogen, how will the AI exert its effects without any testosterone in your body because you shut it down?

The DHT either has to be extremely low dose so as to not shut you down or your basically cycling without knowing. I advice to lay off everything except the AI and maybe extremely low dose DHT.

And Anavar doesn't get metabolized by 5AR + is a weak androgen so that's a no go.

Testosterone + 5AR = DHT
Testosterone + Aromatase = Estrogen

So what you want is to give room for the DHT conversion to happen, which can't happen if all your test is metabolized into estrogen.
BUT IT ALSO CAN'T HAPPEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY TESTOSTERONE TO BEGIN WITH.

So either stay on the HCG, or completely lay off everything. Add the AI as your only compound.

If this doesn't work you can add in testosterone and do a minicycle. Afterwards do a PCT (look it up Reddit steroids or w/e).

Make sure you understand why your doing it, dont just grasp at empty air. Look up steroidogenesis.

"Only thing I’m wondering though is how come if I’ve got too much estrogen in my system - why does that affect sleep? I didn’t think there was much of a connection."
Messed up neurosteroids, cortisol, estrogen in itself is a stress hormone etc etc.
 

Dehdly

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
49
By using DHT you are initiating a shutdown of your natural production, this is not logical at all.

The AI is there so that testosterone doesn't get metabolized into estrogen, how will the AI exert its effects without any testosterone in your body because you shut it down?

The DHT either has to be extremely low dose so as to not shut you down or your basically cycling without knowing. I advice to lay off everything except the AI and maybe extremely low dose DHT.

And Anavar doesn't get metabolized by 5AR + is a weak androgen so that's a no go.

Testosterone + 5AR = DHT
Testosterone + Aromatase = Estrogen

So what you want is to give room for the DHT conversion to happen, which can't happen if all your test is metabolized into estrogen.
BUT IT ALSO CAN'T HAPPEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY TESTOSTERONE TO BEGIN WITH.

So either stay on the HCG, or completely lay off everything. Add the AI as your only compound.

If this doesn't work you can add in testosterone and do a minicycle. Afterwards do a PCT (look it up Reddit steroids or w/e).

Make sure you understand why your doing it, dont just grasp at empty air. Look up steroidogenesis.

"Only thing I’m wondering though is how come if I’ve got too much estrogen in my system - why does that affect sleep? I didn’t think there was much of a connection."
Messed up neurosteroids, cortisol, estrogen in itself is a stress hormone etc etc.
This makes so much sense! I wonder how long it will take for my estrogen levels to drop and 5ar to pick up the extra testosterone? I need to do this for long enough for the positive 5ar feedback mechanism to fully establish itself.

Why do you think that aromatase inhibition doesn’t fix PFS for everyone? If it was just as easy as not allowing testosterone to aromatise, then would everyone not just be fixed after taking AIs for a long enough time?

I’m still wondering how 5ar enzymatic activity is down regulated by Finasteride. From what I’ve read 5ar is present in high quantities in skin cells therefore topical applications are more androgenic, however is it that the 5ar enzymes are just dormant waiting for a viable substrate? Or, is it that they are genuinely non existent and we need to kickstart our gene transcription process to create more?

I think the science behind how to actually CREATE more 5ar enzymes is the key here as no matter what substrate concentration we provide the ideal metabolic path cannot be realised without 5ar itself.

Therefore I see this as two parts:

1 - Creation of 5ar enzymes or upregulation of dormant enzymes (which ever it turns out to be)

2 - Availability of substrate concentrations to feed the 5ar process.

Also, the substrates won’t just be testosterone, but all the 5ar metabolic pathway precursors like progesterone, androstenedione, epitestosterone, cortisol, aldosterone, and deoxycorticosterone. And as I’m sure you can appreciate, no chance of supplementing all of these separately.

Do you know if there is any literature on the creation of 5ar enzymes that you’ve read and consider worth reading? I don’t exactly want to delve into a massive endocrinology book, but maybe just the sections of 5ar enzymatic activity and creation.
 

EustaceBagge

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
39
Location
Amsterdam
"Why do you think that aromatase inhibition doesn’t fix PFS for everyone?"
I honestly do not know, but there is no sure fix for PFS people, and it might have to do with the fact that there is not enough of a shock to the body in the form of a supraphysiological dose of test.

"I’m still wondering how 5ar enzymatic activity is down regulated by Finasteride. From what I’ve read 5ar is present in high quantities in skin cells therefore topical applications are more androgenic, however is it that the 5ar enzymes are just dormant waiting for a viable substrate? Or, is it that they are genuinely non existent and we need to kickstart our gene transcription process to create more?"
I'm not sure about this one either, but we can safely assume nothing is wrong with the androgen receptors themselves because even though finasteride shuts down DHT, it doesn't touch testosterone and they both go to the same receptors. If your body establishes a new homeostasis in a DHT low enviroment the need for 5AR might decrease I guess? How the body will react to a low estrogen high testosterone enviroment is beyond me, but it seems logical that it might shift homeostasis to a more androgen dependent state.

"Do you know if there is any literature on the creation of 5ar enzymes that you’ve read and consider worth reading? I don’t exactly want to delve into a massive endocrinology book, but maybe just the sections of 5ar enzymatic activity and creation."
I don't have anything worthwile as a single exhaustive part, but I know that for example some compounds mess up androgen receptor sensitivity, and some compounds mess with DHT synthesis by inhibiting 5AR. I can list a couple of them:

High doses of Zinc, high doses of vitamin E, high doses of B6, most herbs etc.

Then there are compounds that upregulate 5AR or increase androgen receptors, 3 worthwhile ones:
Glycine
L-Carnitine
Creatine

There are even studies showing vitamin K2 inhibits androgen receptor expression in prostate cancer cells, just like vitamin E does: Vitamin K2, a Naturally Occurring Menaquinone, Exerts Therapeutic Effects on Both Hormone-Dependent and Hormone-Independent Prostate Cancer Cells

So in general, most compounds are NOT good to be deficient in, but also NOT good in excess. Your best bet is to keep diet clean, high in meat, high in dairy, some glycine/bone broth, some creatine, high in saturated fats. If your going to eat vegetables cook them well and fruit is ok.

Even though coffee is generally androgenic I would for the time being not rely on any plant based compounds cuz they always seem to mess with androgen signalling in some way or another. Caffeine in isolated form is ok.
 

Similar threads

Top