Hormonal Issues Possibly Stemming From Aromatase Inhibitor Use(?)

[Downlow]

Greetings. I decided to stop by here in hopes of maybe getting some advice. So far doctors have not really been that helpful and I am getting quite desperate with my current ongoing situation.

So I have been suffering from major depression for years now which already affects my motivation etc. severely. But to add this situation on top of it has been just pure hell. Pretty much I believe my current symptoms started after I used aromatase inhibitor arimidex for about 3 months over 2 years ago with the dose of 0.5-1mg about every other day to try and boost my then lowish testosterone. I have labwork that shows that my estradiol was lowish in the 10 pg/ml area (non-sensitive test though, they recommend the more sensitive assay for males) pre-AI use (makes sense, I am quite lean and dont have much excess fat) when I did not have any of these symptoms. I did not get much benefits from it and I remember even having some flu like symptoms towards the end of my trial (crashed estrogen?) so I quit. It was either right at the end of the trial or after I quit taking it (I stopped cold turkey without tapering it) that all these symptoms began. And they persist to this day with no signs of getting better. These include itchy scalp along with hair loss (I had perfect hair before this), itching around the breast area which is sometimes even painful (doctors say I don't have gynecomastia but I can feel some tissue there), SEVERE sweating/hot flashes throughout the day, debilitating fatigue even if I sleep for 12 hours straight that does not go away (it feels pretty scary to be quite honest), permanent dark circles under my eyes, total loss of libido and sexual interest, erectile dysfunction and so on. All the doctors I meet say it makes no sense these symptoms would be lasting this long after arimidex use.

All my labwork has been in proper ranges (and I know being in range does not mean neccessarily normal but for example my thyroid labs have been good) including estrogen and testosterone (which was actually quite good at 660 ng/dl on my recent labs). Prolactin is mid range. Cortisol is mid to upper mid range. I can provide labwork more if you want. I don't know how reliable DHT from blood is but I've measured my DHT twice and both times it has been at the bottom of reference range (DHT is antagonistic to estrogen, clue?) but docs don't think much of it as my testosterone is normal and estrogen is in range.

Recently I've also developed exercise intolerance and chest pain issues, even had a stress test done but it came back negative. Especially the hot flashes are killing me and seriously affecting quality of my life. I really don't know what is the root cause of all this as labwork has not thus far given me much of a clue. I even checked for blood markers to adrenaline secreting tumor and they came back negative.

Sorry about the rambling but feel free to ask anything you'd like or offer some advice. Last time I tried AI was little over year ago to see if they would help but it did not help. I've also tried HCG for awhile to see if that would help and it didn't, it even perhaps made my hot flashes worse. My only theories are that maybe my body became too sensitive to estrogen or my estrogen levels although normal is too high for me naturally. Maybe some kind of androgen insensitivity, I have no idea. Just want to get rid of these horrible symptoms.

 

[Tom K]

The automatic use of aromatase inhibitors is not advised. Though the Peat mantra is “Estrogen is poison,” nature rarely makes mistakes. E plays a vital role in our existence. For example, estrogen receptors in the male brain play a role in libido. There are receptor sites in arteries that benefit from E balanced levels. While excessive E does cause problems the same is true of levels that are too low. In 40 years of treating patients there is one axiom of which I am certain: biology is the science of exceptions. It would be great if the cook book medicine that outcome based medicine worked for everyone a# many Peaters and doctors would like to believe. But it’s just not true.

Having stated that prequel, you may not be experiencing hormone related issues. Some of the symptoms you present can be found in vector borne illness as well as mold/mycotoxin immune dysfunction. Especially the exercise intolerance. I do not think that the tendency of “If the only tool was a hammer, everything would be a nail,” thinking that exists on this forum is going to solve your issues.

 

[ebs]

I'm about to experiment with this myself as my estradiol has gone above referance range. Last year when I felt better than ever it was in the lower end of the ref range. I suspect this elevation is a result of the increased stress from a (chronic) pain issue in my shoulderblade but it may also be a result of thyroid and progesterone use, which I happen to use with effect to decrease the stress caused by this pain. I have androsterone and using 5 drops, which is suppossed to be equally effective as an A. I., seems to increase melancholy/apathy and kills my drive even further.

Could experimenting with this for just a couple days (when its effect should kick in from what I understand) mess up my hormones long term?

 

[Tom K]

I am aware of the overuse of aromatase inhibitors permanently inhibiting estrogen. These men now require exogenous estrogen in physiological doses. Cengenix, the mill hormone replacement franchise, often over prescribes arimidex. Try using natural aromatase inhibitors, including resveratrol, eecg, salvestrols, etc. to control E. The natural inhibitors do not work as effectively as the drugs, therefore the margin of error is more forgiving. Also, the health promoting effects of these flavanoids, including P53 tumor supressor modulation, are a bonus.

 

[ebs]

I am aware of the overuse of aromatase inhibitors permanently inhibiting estrogen. These men now require exogenous estrogen in physiological doses. Cengenix, the mill hormone replacement franchise, often over prescribes arimidex. Try using natural aromatase inhibitors, including resveratrol, eecg, salvestrols, etc. to control E. The natural inhibitors do not work as effectively as the drugs, therefore the margin of error is more forgiving. Also, the health promoting effects of these flavanoids, including P53 tumor supressor modulation, are a bonus.

I read another A. I. permanently shuts down the estrogen receptor (Aromasin?) but haven't read such stories about Arimidex. From what I understand Arimidex is the most popular A. I. among bodybuilders.

I am just very curious how low estrogen would feel. I've always been easily agitated and I feel it sabotages my manhood. When my estradiol was in healthy range prolactin was still a little high in the normal ref range (above what RP considers healthy so I'm not sure whether I truly ever had low estrogen activity. With an A.I such as Arimidex I can achieve that. I would like to feel calm and stable for once and I believe estrogen is at the core of my restlessness.

 

[Tarmander]

pretty amazing how much you can sleep.

What is your diet like?

 

[Goobz]

Greetings. I decided to stop by here in hopes of maybe getting some advice. So far doctors have not really been that helpful and I am getting quite desperate with my current ongoing situation.

So I have been suffering from major depression for years now which already affects my motivation etc. severely. But to add this situation on top of it has been just pure hell. Pretty much I believe my current symptoms started after I used aromatase inhibitor arimidex for about 3 months over 2 years ago with the dose of 0.5-1mg about every other day to try and boost my then lowish testosterone. I have labwork that shows that my estradiol was lowish in the 10 pg/ml area (non-sensitive test though, they recommend the more sensitive assay for males) pre-AI use (makes sense, I am quite lean and dont have much excess fat) when I did not have any of these symptoms. I did not get much benefits from it and I remember even having some flu like symptoms towards the end of my trial (crashed estrogen?) so I quit. It was either right at the end of the trial or after I quit taking it (I stopped cold turkey without tapering it) that all these symptoms began. And they persist to this day with no signs of getting better. These include itchy scalp along with hair loss (I had perfect hair before this), itching around the breast area which is sometimes even painful (doctors say I don't have gynecomastia but I can feel some tissue there), SEVERE sweating/hot flashes throughout the day, debilitating fatigue even if I sleep for 12 hours straight that does not go away (it feels pretty scary to be quite honest), permanent dark circles under my eyes, total loss of libido and sexual interest, erectile dysfunction and so on. All the doctors I meet say it makes no sense these symptoms would be lasting this long after arimidex use.

All my labwork has been in proper ranges (and I know being in range does not mean neccessarily normal but for example my thyroid labs have been good) including estrogen and testosterone (which was actually quite good at 660 ng/dl on my recent labs). Prolactin is mid range. Cortisol is mid to upper mid range. I can provide labwork more if you want. I don't know how reliable DHT from blood is but I've measured my DHT twice and both times it has been at the bottom of reference range (DHT is antagonistic to estrogen, clue?) but docs don't think much of it as my testosterone is normal and estrogen is in range.

Recently I've also developed exercise intolerance and chest pain issues, even had a stress test done but it came back negative. Especially the hot flashes are killing me and seriously affecting quality of my life. I really don't know what is the root cause of all this as labwork has not thus far given me much of a clue. I even checked for blood markers to adrenaline secreting tumor and they came back negative.

Sorry about the rambling but feel free to ask anything you'd like or offer some advice. Last time I tried AI was little over year ago to see if they would help but it did not help. I've also tried HCG for awhile to see if that would help and it didn't, it even perhaps made my hot flashes worse. My only theories are that maybe my body became too sensitive to estrogen or my estrogen levels although normal is too high for me naturally. Maybe some kind of androgen insensitivity, I have no idea. Just want to get rid of these horrible symptoms.

Sounds like what happened to me when I was prescribed an AI years back and it seemed to basically destroy my health. I also had exposure to mold for a long time, so that's worth looking into as well.

I'd be interested to see what you come up with when searching for the cause of your problems. However IMO the AI was probably implicated, as your symptoms sound similar to mine. The hot flashes are a classic AI symptom.

Unfortunately I'd say these forums may not be the best place to look for solutions, as the majority here can't conceive that estrogen does any good in the human body. There are definitely some exceptions (which is why I like this forum), but just be warned that the prevailing doctrine is "Estrogen is bad. Ray Peat said so"

First thing I'd look at is get a sleep study done and check for sleep apnea. Artificially low estrogen can cause sleep apnea, just like low progesterone can. Perhaps more so. I have sleep apnea despite being in my early thirties, not overweight, and reasonably well formed jaw without a recessive chin. There is a study of a very overweight MtF transexual with extreme sleep apnea who had it completely vanish when given transdermal estradiol.

Other things that I've found that help me are - DHEA (can be converted in to estrogen), low level light therapy, low dose lithium for sleep. I tried resveratrol (stimulate estrogen receptor B) and it made me feel better, but can't make up my mind on whether it's actually beneficial or not (Ray Peat hates it, for example).

I was actually given an estradiol cream along with some test cream to try last year, which I remember thinking made me feel better, but I got nipple enlargement pretty much straight away. I don't really want to grow boobs, so I stopped. However in my case I have some pretty serious sleep and some neurological problems ever since taking the AI, so at a certain point growing boobs may be the lesser of two evils. However, Im not convinced that estrogen is the cause of absolutely all my problems, so I'm holding off on that for now. Haha.

There are also some other things that have had mixed results - niacin seems to have great effects, but then I get a kind of negative rebound effect.

Feel free to PM me btw.

 

[TheBeard]

I read another A. I. permanently shuts down the estrogen receptor (Aromasin?)

Really? Can you find where you read this?

Exemestane is a suicidal AI which means it permanently deactivates the aromatase enzyme, and estrogens are lowered UNTIL new aromatase is made.
Never heard it acts at the receptor level, let alone « permanently shuts it down »

 

[TheBeard]

Greetings. I decided to stop by here in hopes of maybe getting some advice. So far doctors have not really been that helpful and I am getting quite desperate with my current ongoing situation.

So I have been suffering from major depression for years now which already affects my motivation etc. severely. But to add this situation on top of it has been just pure hell. Pretty much I believe my current symptoms started after I used aromatase inhibitor arimidex for about 3 months over 2 years ago with the dose of 0.5-1mg about every other day to try and boost my then lowish testosterone. I have labwork that shows that my estradiol was lowish in the 10 pg/ml area (non-sensitive test though, they recommend the more sensitive assay for males) pre-AI use (makes sense, I am quite lean and dont have much excess fat) when I did not have any of these symptoms. I did not get much benefits from it and I remember even having some flu like symptoms towards the end of my trial (crashed estrogen?) so I quit. It was either right at the end of the trial or after I quit taking it (I stopped cold turkey without tapering it) that all these symptoms began. And they persist to this day with no signs of getting better. These include itchy scalp along with hair loss (I had perfect hair before this), itching around the breast area which is sometimes even painful (doctors say I don't have gynecomastia but I can feel some tissue there), SEVERE sweating/hot flashes throughout the day, debilitating fatigue even if I sleep for 12 hours straight that does not go away (it feels pretty scary to be quite honest), permanent dark circles under my eyes, total loss of libido and sexual interest, erectile dysfunction and so on. All the doctors I meet say it makes no sense these symptoms would be lasting this long after arimidex use.

All my labwork has been in proper ranges (and I know being in range does not mean neccessarily normal but for example my thyroid labs have been good) including estrogen and testosterone (which was actually quite good at 660 ng/dl on my recent labs). Prolactin is mid range. Cortisol is mid to upper mid range. I can provide labwork more if you want. I don't know how reliable DHT from blood is but I've measured my DHT twice and both times it has been at the bottom of reference range (DHT is antagonistic to estrogen, clue?) but docs don't think much of it as my testosterone is normal and estrogen is in range.

Recently I've also developed exercise intolerance and chest pain issues, even had a stress test done but it came back negative. Especially the hot flashes are killing me and seriously affecting quality of my life. I really don't know what is the root cause of all this as labwork has not thus far given me much of a clue. I even checked for blood markers to adrenaline secreting tumor and they came back negative.

Sorry about the rambling but feel free to ask anything you'd like or offer some advice. Last time I tried AI was little over year ago to see if they would help but it did not help. I've also tried HCG for awhile to see if that would help and it didn't, it even perhaps made my hot flashes worse. My only theories are that maybe my body became too sensitive to estrogen or my estrogen levels although normal is too high for me naturally. Maybe some kind of androgen insensitivity, I have no idea. Just want to get rid of these horrible symptoms.

@Kram @lampofred and myself are also experiencing these symptoms.

On my part I don’t know why I’m experiencing them, but it happens I also used an AI a few times to boost my endogenous T levels.

The difference is I used Aromasin, which has the advantage of being suicidal and not causing rebound issues like Arimidex could.

We all started experiencing these symptoms around 2016 or later: it very well could be an androgen insensitivity syndrom we all have developed due to chemicals/waves being introduced around that time.

So far I’m still clueless.

All I know is testosterone cream applied to the scrotum is slowly making me feel like I used to, with symptoms of estrogens rising again: muscle fulness, better libido, better mood, better speech fluency.

The downside is testosterone is disturbing my sleep and giving me headaches from the increased blood pressure

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Why do people get prescribed AIs in the first place?

 

[Vinny]

We all started experiencing these symptoms around 2016 or later: it very well could be an androgen insensitivity syndrom we all have developed due to chemicals/waves being introduced around that time.

Interesting...

 

[Tom K]

I wish all these questions could be as easily answered as some dogmatic Peaters believe. Theory is wonderful. Treat a few patients with bizarre symptoms and scratch your head for a long time when they do not respond. It would be terrific if text book medicine solved all our problems. Let’s not fall into the trap of believing symptom management is resolving pathology or poor health.

While there is plenty of dogma in Peatville, there are also plenty of open minds. Open discussions are never moderated out of the forum. Let’s keep this an elevated forum. Let’s exchange ideas and experience. The dogma that contaminates modern medicine is more clandestine, but it is more dangerous. When conventional medicine fails, and practitioners attempt alternative interventions to help patients they find themselves in front of the State Board of Medical Examiners for review. That’s dogma that is truly dangerous.

Try modulating mood and cognition with oxytocin and preg. Oxytocin levels often decline when exogenous T is employed in a HRT program. Also, I explore everyone to Stay away from the bodybuilding pharmacy and mindset. As some here may know, there is no secret sauce that these genetic freaks posses. Yes, drugs will make everyone bigger, stronger, faster, better recovery, etc. However, the best will always be the best, not because of what they know but because of who they are! I hAve observed poor responders to anabolics and those poor responders do not experience the same response to resistance trading with or without drugs. When patients bring in body building mags that are overrun with Bro science I cringe. Aside from the enormous amounts of drugs these people employ, they are gifted genetically to acquire muscle mass. Their depressed levels of myostatin, longitudinal muscle belly length, and their physiological cross section are congenital, not acquired. These easy responder attributes are not from protein powders, supplements, drugs, or standing on your head and drinking hot pepper juice as bro science proclaims. The easy responders have won the genetic lottery. Imagine two speakers at a bodybuilding seminar. One looks like a couch potato. The other looks like Mr. Olympia. Mr potato is a PHD in exercise physiology and genetics. Mr O is as dumb as a door knob, takes enormous amounts of drugs and is an easy responder. Mr Potato will have the fewest number in the audience, while Mr O’s lecture will have standing room only.
Invest more time in knowing ‘Who you are.’ If the the majority of what you seek is approval from others, expect low levels of satisfaction for a long time. The young mind that seeks recognition by comparing oneself to others will never be satisfied. The only person to compare yourself to is your former self. Are you a better person, trainer, doctor , husband, son , that you were before? Always be/ do your best, but realize that true happiness lies within. Ther are too many dead bodybuilders to serve as proof that the short live, short sighted, small think8ng that permeates bodybuilding that is portrayed as the young persons’ dream Is for many, a nightmare both physicall and emotionally.
,

 

[Kunstruct]

Ther are too many dead bodybuilders to serve as proof

There are millions of people bodybuilding, personally I do not know any dead bodybuilder around me, all bodybuilders are alive.
The same 3 guys shown as dead on youtube is too little to claim about how many dead bodybuilders there are.

 

[TheBeard]

Why do people get prescribed AIs in the first place?

We don’t. We buy it online to cure what we think may be our issues in the first place

 

[TheBeard]

There are millions of people bodybuilding, personally I do not know any dead bodybuilder around me, all bodybuilders are alive.
The same 3 guys shown as dead on youtube is too little to claim about how many dead bodybuilders there are.

Exactly.

High doses of test, you’re mostly good to go for the rest of your life.
High dose other AAS including tren, you’ll **** up your kidneys and your heart overtime, but you won’t drop dead.
Insulin overdose, yes you can enter in a coma.

 

[Jpkoepse]

Coming from a bodybuilder... that is a lot of Arimidex for someone not using decent amounts of exogenous testosterone.. and coming from someone who has accidentally crushed their estrogen multiple times attempting to dial in the correct dosage, it's miserable.

 

[sebastian_r]

Symptoms sound a lot like side effects from low estradiol. Been there, done that.
Either get new bloodwork done with sensitive estradiol, dht, progesterone and prolactin.
Or try increasening your estradiol via "safe" supplements. DHEA or B vitamins come to my mind.

 

[Tom K]

There are only three dead bodybuilders that I treated personally. All in their late 20s or early 30s. One was Mr Universe in the 80s, the other also played in the NFL. A quick search on the internet produces an easy list of names of dead body builders. They die before they are 40. Most die in their 30s. Less die in their 20s. The most common diagnosis is of cardio vascular related origin. Is it sheer coincidence that they were all anabolic abusers? Please do not proclaim that joggers and marathon runners often collapse in their younger years. I do not support marathon events, there is little evidence that running for hours has health benefits, there is ample evidence that such exercise contributes to cardiac arrhythmia, etc. I am not demonizing body building and there is ample evidence that demonstrates it is at least as healthy as other forms of exercise. The prior post stated to avoid the body building pharmacy. You will not win the Olympia but your chances of living past go up considerably.

 

[charlie]

We all started experiencing these symptoms around 2016 or later:

I have experienced and witnessed the same.

 

[Jpkoepse]

There are only three dead bodybuilders that I treated personally. All in their late 20s or early 30s. One was Mr Universe in the 80s, the other also played in the NFL. A quick search on the internet produces an easy list of names of dead body builders. They die before they are 40. Most die in their 30s. Less die in their 20s. The most common diagnosis is of cardio vascular related origin. Is it sheer coincidence that they were all anabolic abusers? Please do not proclaim that joggers and marathon runners often collapse in their younger years. I do not support marathon events, there is little evidence that running for hours has health benefits, there is ample evidence that such exercise contributes to cardiac arrhythmia, etc. I am not demonizing body building and there is ample evidence that demonstrates it is at least as healthy as other forms of exercise. The prior post stated to avoid the body building pharmacy. You will not win the Olympia but your chances of living past go up considerably.

Only anecdotal but if you take all the people who dabble in AAS... the amount of health issues that actually arise versus what the public would think are vastly different. However, when you get to the upper echelon I have seen more health issues. Still a small percentage but it definitely goes up. I think the weight has more to do with it than anything else. If you follow the industry, the smaller guys in Men's Physique/Classic Physique take just as much as the bigger guys but the fact that the remain lighter seems to help them out a lot.