Why do I have a b1 deficiency?

[dervmai]

So I just got my updated b1 tests after having supplemented b1 due to a prior b1 deficiency. My updated b1 level is 12. The range is 8-30, so I am still very low in b1. I have been supplementing thiamin HCI 100 mg for roughly 3 months, I slowed down the b1 supplementation before I went to retest. My values are still very low. I am confused why this is happening to me. Is this a gut issue? I'm trying to understand from every possible angle, the reason for my b1 deficiency. I don't know much about it though, I would really appreciate the opinions of people knowledgeable on this forum... my GP just tells me to continue supplementing... and since I am not deficient by the ranges anymore, she can't do much.... plus she wasn't addressing why I was b1 deficient.

 

[PopSocket]

So I just got my updated b1 tests after having supplemented b1 due to a prior b1 deficiency. My updated b1 level is 12. The range is 8-30, so I am still very low in b1. I have been supplementing thiamin HCI 100 mg for roughly 3 months, I slowed down the b1 supplementation before I went to retest. My values are still very low. I am confused why this is happening to me. Is this a gut issue? I'm trying to understand from every possible angle, the reason for my b1 deficiency. I don't know much about it though, I would really appreciate the opinions of people knowledgeable on this forum... my GP just tells me to continue supplementing... and since I am not deficient by the ranges anymore, she can't do much.... plus she wasn't addressing why I was b1 deficient.

Do you drink alcohol ?

 

[LucH]

Hi,
Thiamin synthesis
Heavy consumption of tannin-containing or food rich in caffeine, theobromine, and theophylline (such as those present in coffee, chocolate, and tea, respectively) can inactivate thiamine, thereby compromising the thiamine status (7, 14, 15).
Source : Neurological, Psychiatric, and Biochemical Aspects of Thiamine Deficiency in Children and Adults
Neurological, Psychiatric, and Biochemical Aspects of Thiamine Deficiency in Children and Adults
2019

Picture: There is interaction between some vitamins B.

B1, B2 and B3 are required to assimilate sugar. After a food-product has been refined or heavily processed, its thiamine content is reduced significantly.
Thiamin HCL is well.
Usual daily allowance + 0.5 mg / 1000 K/cal. More if SIBO.
800 μg DA but 1.1 mg is best.

Complex 50 mg if supplemented (B2 & B3 are limiting factors). No need for B9 and B12 every day.

Note: Adequate doses of all B vitamins are essential for optimal function (a deficiency or excess of a single B vitamin can lead to abnormalities in the metabolism of another B vitamin).

 

[mostlylurking]

So I just got my updated b1 tests after having supplemented b1 due to a prior b1 deficiency. My updated b1 level is 12. The range is 8-30, so I am still very low in b1. I have been supplementing thiamin HCI 100 mg for roughly 3 months, I slowed down the b1 supplementation before I went to retest. My values are still very low. I am confused why this is happening to me. Is this a gut issue? I'm trying to understand from every possible angle, the reason for my b1 deficiency. I don't know much about it though, I would really appreciate the opinions of people knowledgeable on this forum... my GP just tells me to continue supplementing... and since I am not deficient by the ranges anymore, she can't do much.... plus she wasn't addressing why I was b1 deficient.

It is my understanding that many of the thiamine tests are unreliable. But I don't know which test you took. Here's an article about the testing:

Thiamine Deficiency Testing: Understanding the Labs - Hormones Matter

Understanding thiamine deficiency and the lab testing methods most appropriate for detecting abnormal thiamine chemistry.

www.hormonesmatter.com

There are multiple types of thiamine supplements; here's an article about the types:

Navigating Thiamine Supplements- Hormones Matter

Understanding the different forms of vitamin B1.

www.hormonesmatter.com

I take high dose thiamine hcl, 1000 mgs, 2Xday. A much higher dose of thiamine hcl is required because it has very poor absorption rate through the intestinal wall. 100mg of thiamine hcl is an extremely small dose because of the poor absorption rate. Many people take TTFD thiamine. It does not have an absorption problem so the dosage is much lower.

I chose to stick with thiamine hcl because I could not tolerate TTFD because my glutathione level was in the ditch due to heavy metal toxicity. Happily taking high dose thiamine hcl has normalized my glutathione level for the first time in many years. Although the amount needed (1 gram, 2Xday, based on my weight) is a large amount (due to poor absorption in the gut), the pure bulk powder is inexpensive. A little of it tastes as bad as a lot of it so it's just a matter of getting used to the taste. Here are some sources for info about thiamine:
Dr. Costantini's website. He successfully treated thousands of Parkinson's Disease patients in Italy using thiamine hcl. I chose to follow his protocol because I tolerate thiamine hcl better than TTFD. Dr. Costantini's FAQ's are well worth the time to read. His patient before and after videos are illuminating and very short.
Dr. Derrick Lonsdale's articles. He is on the far side of 99 and although is in a wheel chair and assisted living, he still has his wits about him which is a great testament to TTFD.
Daphne Brian's book about thiamine and Parkinson's Disease; she found great success using a sublingual form of thiamine which I have tried and found that it does work.
Elliot Overton's youtube channel. Excellent videos and a great way to get started learning about thiamine. Elliot focuses mainly on TTFD thiamine but the information can be extrapolated over to the other types of thiamine for general understanding. He explains the pros and cons of the different types.
Elliot Overton's website. Excellent articles under Blog. Also links to his videos.

You asked "why do I have a B1 deficiency?". I can't answer that question because I don't know the particulars. I myself have a b1 deficiency because I have heavy metal poisoning (mercury, lead). Other people have b1 deficiencies for multiple reasons. I think if you watch some of Elliot Overton's videos and read a few of Dr. Lonsdale's articles you will have a better understanding and perhaps will be able to answer that question.

I hope you find this helpful.

Here's a good video to start with:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuIhjlFYYZY&list=PLZPlb2-Xf5TzYhS2h-bXD4q8TBWRjub-D&index=13

 

[dervmai]

You asked "why do I have a B1 deficiency?". I can't answer that question because I don't know the particulars. I myself have a b1 deficiency because I have heavy metal poisoning (mercury, lead). Other people have b1 deficiencies for multiple reasons. I think if you watch some of Elliot Overton's videos and read a few of Dr. Lonsdale's articles you will have a better understanding and perhaps will be able to answer that question.

I assume you chelate the heavy metals? I also do have heavy metal poisoning, I just removed my mercury fillings and I just have a root canal left. Maybe mine could be heavy metals. Will identifying the cause (in your case heavy metals) and addressing it take away the need to supplement it? You seem very knowledgeable on thiamine deficiency, do you know other potential causes of a b1 deficiency besides heavy metals?

 

[mostlylurking]

I assume you chelate the heavy metals? I also do have heavy metal poisoning, I just removed my mercury fillings and I just have a root canal left. Maybe mine could be heavy metals. Will identifying the cause (in your case heavy metals) and addressing it take away the need to supplement it? You seem very knowledgeable on thiamine deficiency, do you know other potential causes of a b1 deficiency besides heavy metals?

Mercury poisoning is a lifetime sort of thing. Sorry. Did you get the amalgams removed the safe way? I've read recently that even removing them safely will stir up the mercury that's stored in your body. When it gets released into the blood stream there will be more symptoms.

You can chelate lead out with thiamine (how about that?) But the only safe way known to get mercury out is Boyd Haley's Emeramide; the FDA has been sitting on the approval for the past 14 years. I have found great benefit with alleviating symptoms via high dose thiamine hcl. Here's a link to an article:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/50834315_Cell_damage_through_pentose_phosphate_pathway_in_fetus_fibroblast_cells_exposed_to_methyl_mercury

Here's a link to Dr. Derrick Lonsdale talking about getting lead out with mercury:
Autism Research Connections #3: A Conversation with Dr. Derrick Lonsdale

You asked:

do you know other potential causes of a b1 deficiency besides heavy metals?

Elliot Overton talks about causes of b1 deficiency in the video I provided earlier.

 

[loess]

I chose to stick with thiamine hcl because I could not tolerate TTFD because my glutathione level was in the ditch due to heavy metal toxicity. Happily taking high dose thiamine hcl has normalized my glutathione level for the first time in many years.

This is similar to my situation; my glutathione has tanked due to a variety of stressors and toxins including prolonged toxic mold exposure, Lyme infections, intestinal overgrowth and dysbiosis, uranium toxicity and other environmental and biotoxins. I've recently left the mold house that until recently I was unaware was the primary ongoing culprit in the destruction of my health. I have become severely injured neurologically, and my kidneys and GI tract have been hit hard. I intend to slowly replenish high doses of thiamine HCL as I embark upon the long road of recovery, but I'm trying to ensure that I first become replete in B2, selenium, iodine, molybdenum, and B12 while hopefully improving and bolstering methylation.

@mostlylurking, how long did it take for your glutathione to normalize after initiating your thiamine HCL protocol? Did you jump right into those 2x/1000mg doses, or did you titrate up? Do you need to relegate your thiamine doses to the daytime so as not to cause insomnia, or do you find that not to be an issue?

I've used TTFD before (Thiamax) and intend to eventually re-introduce it and Benfotiamine to my process of recovery, but I know that if I jump the gun and do that right away, especially with TTFD, it will draw too powerfully on the various co-factors of which I am already depleted and cause even more problems and bad reactions.

 

[dervmai]

Mercury poisoning is a lifetime sort of thing. Sorry. Did you get the amalgams removed the safe way? I've read recently that even removing them safely will stir up the mercury that's stored in your body. When it gets released into the blood stream there will be more symptoms.

Wow this is distressing to hear. Are you saying that if I am sensitive to the mercury, there is no way to get rid of it currently? I did a hair mineral analysis and these were my results:

Now I'm not sure if you have ever done one of these, but maybe you have. If you have, were your mercury poison levels really high? Mine doesn't show it as super high but still high none the less. You say that it's a lifetime issue... could you elaborate on this? Because the light research I did says that the body naturally detoxes heavy metals including mercury.

I don't know if my symptoms are attributed to mercury poisoning, the b1 deficiency could indeed be caused by it though, which scares me now, since your saying it's a lifetime thing... it makes me feel a bit hopeless.

 

[charlie]

Most likely because you have a toxicity of something like lead, mercury, etc........

 

[LucH]

Mind rice origin (arsenic).
Before any improvement, you must get rid of mercury.* Mind the way you do this. Get well informed before taking any supplement + how to assist LPS detox. Otherwise you'll panic and your liver may mark a substance as intruder if you can't manage, if you take it too long. Alternate.
* Mercury blocks recovery pathways.
It must be kept in mind that these HM attach mainly to thiol groups and mobilize sulfur and selenium as a priority, as well as most molecules with thiol groups such as coenzyme A, glutathione, lipoic acid, etc. taurine and also cystine and methionine. I therefore believe that supplementation aimed at increasing these molecules or preserving them (via vitamin cofactors) is as important as chelation itself.

=> Need a health practionner advice accustomed to detox pathways.

 

[dervmai]

Mind rice origin (arsenic).
Before any improvement, you must get rid of mercury.* Mind the way you do this. Get well informed before taking any supplement + how to assist LPS detox. Otherwise you'll panic and your liver may mark a substance as intruder if you can't manage, if you take it too long. Alternate.
* Mercury blocks recovery pathways.
It must be kept in mind that these HM attach mainly to thiol groups and mobilize sulfur and selenium as a priority, as well as most molecules with thiol groups such as coenzyme A, glutathione, lipoic acid, etc. taurine and also cystine and methionine. I therefore believe that supplementation aimed at increasing these molecules or preserving them (via vitamin cofactors) is as important as chelation itself.

=> Need a health practionner advice accustomed to detox pathways.

So there is a way to detox mercury? What is the safest and least inflammatory way to detox in your opinion. I understand the opinions given are not to be taken as medical advice. I am in a very fragile state of health currently so I don't want to over burden my system by taking potentially harmful substances even if it detoxes the mercury. I read about NAC and niacin?

 

[webbt]

I think thiamine + magnesium, vitamin C, and sufficient high quality protein intake would do a lot for dealing with heavy metals.

And notice how I paired up thiamine with magnesium. This is important and could be why you are having problems with b1 deficiency.

Why Thiamine Supplementation Requires Magnesium - Hormones Matter

Magnesium is absolutely essential for normal thiamine activity in the body. Thiamine activation depends upon sufficient magnesium stores.

www.hormonesmatter.com

My favorite form of magnesium is magnesium BHB. 5 grams is about 350 mg of magnesium.

 

[LucH]

1.So there is a way to detox mercury?

1. Yes

What is the safest and least inflammatory way to detox in your opinion.

2. Too early to talk about.
Why? answer beneath.
I understand the position. This is well reasoned except that there is a problem that you must be aware of: No recovery / return to homeostasis if there is no methylation *. Indeed, mercury counteracts the methylation process. Mercury blocks certain vital functional enzymes. Dead end if we don't dislodge this mercury. First become aware of this fact before talking about recovery and nutrition. And yes, you will have to pay attention to the energy level / of available vitality, to assist the body in its recovery.

* What is methylation?
Very few people know it, even though it is the keystone of a multitude of vital actions within our body.
Source: nutriting.com

Methylation is a vital metabolic process. It takes place constantly in all the cells of our body at a frantic pace (up to a billion times per second). Biochemically, it is an extremely simple process which consists of the transmission of a methyl group (a carbon atom linked to 3 hydrogen atoms, or CH3) from one molecule to another. But this process, apparently simple, alone ensures a multitude of functions in the human body, such as the production and regulation of a large number of molecules including neurotransmitters and hormones in the brain, the detoxification of the body via the production of glutathione (which is none other than the most powerful antioxidant in the human body), the breakdown of histamine in the intestine, but also and above all, according to one of the great discoveries of recent years, it allows the modulation of the expression of certain genes in our DNA via epigenetic processes. Methylation is therefore essential for the maintenance, repair and manufacturing of our cells, intracellular communication, and more particularly, the inheritance of epigenetic information from a mother cell to daughter cells during cell division (which is the way cells reproduce).

An for other readers :
Impact négatif de l’oxalate sur le métabolisme : Chaos biochimique ! (in French, translator needed).
Excerpt :
Oxalates interfere with sulfate transport (via Sat1 transporter). The main reason why oxalates are so toxic is that each molecule of oxalate that enters our body will induce a loss of a molecule of sulfate. Sulfate uses the same transporter to enter and leave the body. (…)
The main idea with oxalate toxicity is that it causes problems in the liver and kidneys – our two most important detoxification organs. While high oxalate levels cause liver problems and loss of vitamin B6, it is in the kidneys that oxalate causes us to lose much of our precious sulfate. The kidney is a key player in sulfate-related issues because it is the organ responsible for keeping our sulfate levels in balance. As already stated, the kidney must exchange an oxalate molecule for a sulfate molecule via the Sat1 transporter, and when oxalates are high, this causes a loss of sulfate in the urine.
Note: Sulfate is required for SOD enzyme.
The function of superoxide dismutase (SOD) is to scavenge free radicals to combat cellular aging and associated health disorders.

 

[mostlylurking]

This is similar to my situation; my glutathione has tanked due to a variety of stressors and toxins including prolonged toxic mold exposure, Lyme infections, intestinal overgrowth and dysbiosis, uranium toxicity and other environmental and biotoxins. I've recently left the mold house that until recently I was unaware was the primary ongoing culprit in the destruction of my health. I have become severely injured neurologically, and my kidneys and GI tract have been hit hard. I intend to slowly replenish high doses of thiamine HCL as I embark upon the long road of recovery, but I'm trying to ensure that I first become replete in B2, selenium, iodine, molybdenum, and B12 while hopefully improving and bolstering methylation.

I think my glutathione level increased because I was providing my body what it needs to lower the stress of the mercury toxicity. Primarily for me, that was high dose thiamine hcl (plus other supplements, not taken high dose). These include magnesium glycinate, riboflavin, niacinamide, progesterone (I'm female, 73), pregnenolone, vitamins D, and K, selenium, and biotin. This is my list (your needs may be different); I formulated it by studying Ray Peat's articles and interviews. I follow Ray Peat's advice about diet. I do not follow other people's interpretations of Ray Peat's advice about diet. #1 is to avoid PUFA like the plague that it is. It uses up thiamine because of the free radicals associated with it.

Here's an interesting article about glutathione and heavy metals:

Toxicity of Glutathione-Binding Metals: A Review of Targets and Mechanisms

Mercury, cadmium, arsenic and lead are among priority metals for toxicological studies due to the frequent human exposure and to the significant burden of disease following acute and chronic intoxication. Among their common characteristics is chemical affinity to proteins and non-protein thiols...

www.mdpi.com

My takeaway is that if you have too much oxidative stress, glutathione gets used up dealing with it. Thiamine deficiency increases oxidative stress. Thiamine lowers ROS. My glutathione normalized after taking high dose thiamine hcl for a few months; this tells me that my oxidative stress level is much improved.

https://alz-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/trc2.12199

CONSEQUENCES OF INCREASED REACTIVE OXYGEN SPECIES IN THIAMINE DEFICIENCY​

"Oxidative stress occurs if reactive oxygen species (ROS) reach abnormally high concentrations that impair redox-sensitive signaling pathways, causing calcium efflux from the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) and depressing mitochondrial function that could manifest as hypometabolism in the 18F-FDG scan. Thiamine's importance for oxidative stress is because it is a cofactor for both α-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase and transketolase, thus reducing generation of NADH and limiting the actions of both the respiratory chain and antioxidant enzymes. Langlais et al. induced thiamine deficiency in rats that led to an increase of ROS by 34.9% in the thalamus and by 19% in the cerebral cortex (P < .05 for both).23 Chauhan et al. made mice thiamine deficient and saw reductions of 86% in glutathione reductase, of 72% in reduced glutathione, and of 84% in superoxide dismutase.24 In the brains of thiamine-deficient mice, Sharma et al. also saw major decreases in levels of reduced glutathione, superoxide dismutase, and catalase, and increases in levels of glutathione reductase and protein carbonyls.18 Thus, oxidative stress is a factor that might produce synaptic dysfunction in ways besides deficiency of ATP."
-end paste-

I recently got blood tested for iodine status because I want to know where I stand before considering supplementing any iodine.

I am hypothyroid and am under the care of an endocrinologist and I currently take 135mg of NP Thyroid by Acella. Addressing hypothyroidism is very important. Thiamine deficiency knocks out thyroid function. And hyperthyroidism (or too much supplemental T3) blocks thiamine function. So I'm not willing to chance a haphazard do-it-yourself method. I get blood tests every 6 months.

Diet is extremely important. Thiamine supplementation is primary (for me). Avoiding all toxins is extremely important. This includes things you eat (think PUFA), the air you breath, the water you drink, your personal care products. You want to lighten your toxin burden so that your body can recover. Thiamine is a key part.

I rely on Dr. Costantini's advice regarding thiamine hcl supplementation. His FAQs are very helpful. #7 addresses taking other supplements.

I think that thiamine supplementation should be front and center if you suspect you have issues with thiamine deficiency. I do not agree in the idea of trying to replete other vitamins BEFORE even starting thiamine. I do believe you should educate yourself about it as much as possible.

@mostlylurking, how long did it take for your glutathione to normalize after initiating your thiamine HCL protocol? Did you jump right into those 2x/1000mg doses, or did you titrate up? Do you need to relegate your thiamine doses to the daytime so as not to cause insomnia, or do you find that not to be an issue?

The glutathione normalized within 4-6 months of taking my optimum dose per my weight of thiamine hcl, possibly sooner; this was when I got the blood work to prove the glutathione status. I base the concept of my "optimum dose" on Dr. Costantini's information and on my response to it.

I started with around 300-350mg, 2Xday of thiamine hcl. I spent 4 months titrating up to 1 gram, 2Xday. I didn't have a doctor helping me so I took it slow. I increased the dose about every 7-10 days I think. Dr. Costantini advised taking the second dose by 3:00pm but I take mine a little later than that with no problems. If I forget the dose and it's 6:00pm or later, I just skip the dose.

I've used TTFD before (Thiamax) and intend to eventually re-introduce it and Benfotiamine to my process of recovery, but I know that if I jump the gun and do that right away, especially with TTFD, it will draw too powerfully on the various co-factors of which I am already depleted and cause even more problems and bad reactions.

I reacted badly to TTFD because my glutathione was deficient. I never reacted badly to thiamine hcl. I think it would be helpful to you to spend time researching on Dr. Costantini's website. Watch the before/after videos of his patients. Observe their conditions before beginning the thiamine hcl therapy. These people are obviously in big trouble. They were started on high dose thiamine hcl (by injection) without preliminary supplementation of other things.

Wow this is distressing to hear. Are you saying that if I am sensitive to the mercury, there is no way to get rid of it currently? I did a hair mineral analysis and these were my results:

Yeah. Heavy metals are bad news. Many can be chelated out. But in the process of chelating them, they get freed up in the system and cause serious trouble. They might be safely parked in the bones, then freed up, and settle in brain instead. Serious consideration should be practiced before embarking on a program to "get the heavy metals out of the body".

I've had over 100 EDTA IV chelations over my life time. I've still got the mercury. So I'm focusing on minimizing the symptoms of the mercury. The symptoms got triggered in the past when I went through very stressful events, like organo-phosphate poisoning (1994), getting EDTA chelation when thiamine deficient (2014), getting whacked with the Bactrim antibiotic (2020).

Hair analysis can be pretty confusing because if the results show low mercury it may mean that your body is holding onto it, not that you don't have any. This page has some info about hair analysis, including in the Comments:

Using the Andy Cutler Protocol to Address Mercury Poisoning

🖨️ Print post Mercury is poisonous. However, mercury’s effects are very often misunderstood because the havoc it causes can masquerade under a variety of different names, including autism, […]

www.westonaprice.org

Now I'm not sure if you have ever done one of these, but maybe you have. If you have, were your mercury poison levels really high? Mine doesn't show it as super high but still high none the less. You say that it's a lifetime issue... could you elaborate on this? Because the light research I did says that the body naturally detoxes heavy metals including mercury.

I did a hair analysis test in 1995 when I was at the Orthomolecular detox doctor's trying not to die. I don't remember what it showed. The doctor did multiple tests, determined my toxin load was very high, then detoxed me via EDTA IV chelations, diet, supplements, and hyperbaric oxygen. He told me he was removing the burden off my immune system so my body could heal itself. I got well, but it took 2 years to recover my short term memory.

The one time my mercury level showed up as high was around 2003(?) when I got loopy and couldn't make change at a craft fair, then ran into the carport post when parking my car afterwards. I did an EDTA IV challenge test, without any DMSA (mercury chelator) and the results showed high mercury. This meant that my mercury burden had gotten stirred up by something I don't know what. I did a series of 20 EDTA IV chelations with DMSA capsule prior to each IV. I did get better; I still have the mercury.

I don't know if my symptoms are attributed to mercury poisoning, the b1 deficiency could indeed be caused by it though, which scares me now, since your saying it's a lifetime thing... it makes me feel a bit hopeless.

I think that things deplete thiamine and mercury is one of them. I think that the symptoms of mercury poisoning are the symptoms of thiamine deficiency. I think that thiamine supplementation resolves the thiamine deficiency and the symptoms go away. I'm OK with my mercury so long as it is safely parked somewhere in my body and not floating around in my bloodstream wreaking havoc.

I think feeling hopeless is a symptom of hypoxia caused by thiamine deficiency. You can address and correct a thiamine deficiency. If you can eradicate the symptoms by supplementing a vitamin, it isn't a big deal; it's just body maintenance. People accumulate heavy metals; it's part of life.

Need a health practionner advice accustomed to detox pathways.

Good luck. The last one I trusted damned near killed me. I highly recommend self education. Had I done that then, I would have insisted that the doctor determine my thiamine status before chelating me as it is written (can't find it now) that chelating a thiamine deficient person can be fatal. I just got rheumatoid arthritis so I count myself lucky.

The closest thing I can find now re. EDTA chelation and thiamine is this one"

EDTA Induced Kidney Failure Resolved With Thiamine - Hormones Matter

By this time, I was in stage 5 kidney failure with a GFR of 9, which in most cases indicated kidney dialysis. I was never more scared.

www.hormonesmatter.com

I think thiamine + magnesium, vitamin C, and sufficient high quality protein intake would do a lot for dealing with heavy metals.

I partly agree. Ray Peat said vitamin C supplements are contaminated with heavy metals (lead?) from the modern manufacturing practices and it is best to rely on food sources for vitamin C. I drink OJ for my vitamin C (and for the potassium). Thiamine is a powerful antioxidant. It lowers ROS.

Ray Peat wasn't a fan of Vitamin C supplements. You can go here: bioenergetic search and type in "vitamin c" to see what he had to say about it.

I follow Ray Peat's advice about "high quality protein" in that muscle meats are problematic (if there's too much intake) and that gelatin and dairy are better choices. For more info go to bioenergetic search and type in "muscle meats" or "gelatin" or "calcium phosphate ratio" or "tryptophan".

 

[mostlylurking]

1. Yes

2. Too early to talk about.
Why? answer beneath.
I understand the position. This is well reasoned except that there is a problem that you must be aware of: No recovery / return to homeostasis if there is no methylation *. Indeed, mercury counteracts the methylation process. Mercury blocks certain vital functional enzymes. Dead end if we don't dislodge this mercury. First become aware of this fact before talking about recovery and nutrition. And yes, you will have to pay attention to the energy level / of available vitality, to assist the body in its recovery.

* What is methylation?
Very few people know it, even though it is the keystone of a multitude of vital actions within our body.
Source: nutriting.com

Methylation is a vital metabolic process. It takes place constantly in all the cells of our body at a frantic pace (up to a billion times per second). Biochemically, it is an extremely simple process which consists of the transmission of a methyl group (a carbon atom linked to 3 hydrogen atoms, or CH3) from one molecule to another. But this process, apparently simple, alone ensures a multitude of functions in the human body, such as the production and regulation of a large number of molecules including neurotransmitters and hormones in the brain, the detoxification of the body via the production of glutathione (which is none other than the most powerful antioxidant in the human body), the breakdown of histamine in the intestine, but also and above all, according to one of the great discoveries of recent years, it allows the modulation of the expression of certain genes in our DNA via epigenetic processes. Methylation is therefore essential for the maintenance, repair and manufacturing of our cells, intracellular communication, and more particularly, the inheritance of epigenetic information from a mother cell to daughter cells during cell division (which is the way cells reproduce).

An for other readers :
Impact négatif de l’oxalate sur le métabolisme : Chaos biochimique ! (in French, translator needed).
Excerpt :
Oxalates interfere with sulfate transport (via Sat1 transporter). The main reason why oxalates are so toxic is that each molecule of oxalate that enters our body will induce a loss of a molecule of sulfate. Sulfate uses the same transporter to enter and leave the body. (…)
The main idea with oxalate toxicity is that it causes problems in the liver and kidneys – our two most important detoxification organs. While high oxalate levels cause liver problems and loss of vitamin B6, it is in the kidneys that oxalate causes us to lose much of our precious sulfate. The kidney is a key player in sulfate-related issues because it is the organ responsible for keeping our sulfate levels in balance. As already stated, the kidney must exchange an oxalate molecule for a sulfate molecule via the Sat1 transporter, and when oxalates are high, this causes a loss of sulfate in the urine.
Note: Sulfate is required for SOD enzyme.
The function of superoxide dismutase (SOD) is to scavenge free radicals to combat cellular aging and associated health disorders.

A few links to back up these fantastical assertions would be nice.

Ray Peat was not fond of doing things that increase methylation.

"... it allows the modulation of the expression of certain genes in our DNA via epigenetic processes."

Bingo.

Peat cautioned that methylation does exactly that; modulates the expression of genes in the DNA. But you don't get to pick which genes get modulated which is problematic.

If curious about Ray Peat's opinion on methylation, go here: bioenergetic search , and type in "methylation".

Option B: go to this search engine: PeatSearch: a Ray Peat-specific search engine - Toxinless and in the cell that EXCLUDES the forum, type in "methylation". Click Enter. Scroll down until you find the links to articles on raypeat.com.

Here's one:

Stem cells, cell culture, and culture: Issues in regeneration

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

click Control and F to bring up the Find feature (I'm using Firefox). Type in Methylation.
Here's a quote:

" Methylation decreases the expression of particular genes, and during the differention of cells in the development of an embryo, genes are methylated and demethylated as the cell adapts to produce the proteins that are involved in the structure and function of a particular tissue. Methylation (which increases a molecule's affinity for fats) is a widespread process in cells, and for example regulates cellular excitability. It is affected by diet and a variety of stresses.

" DNA methylation patterns are normally fairly stable, and can help to account for the transgenerational transmission of acquired adaptations, and for neonatal imprinting that can last a lifetime. But with injury, stress, and aging, the methylation patterns of differentiated tissues can be changed, contributing to the development of tumors, or to the loss of cellular functions. Even learning can change the methylation of specific genes. During in vitro culture, the enzymes of gene methylation are known to be increased, relative to their normal activity (Wang, et al., 2005).


"The phenomenon of "gene" methylation in response to environmental and metabolic conditions may eventually lead to the extinction of the doctrine that "cells are controlled by their genes.""
-end paste-

This particular article mentions the word "methylation" 45 times so I'm sure there are more nuggets in it to be found.​

 

[LucH]

A few links to back up these fantastical assertions would be nice.

Thanks for your developed answer. I appreciate the explanations and the links. Need some time to deepen and cogitate.

Mostylurking replies:
"A few links to back up these fantastical assertions would be nice".
=>
*) What is methylation?
Very few people know it, even though it is the keystone of a multitude of vital actions within our body.
Source: nutriting.com
=> La méthylation, pourquoi c'est fondamental et à quoi ça sert ?
Note : Commercial site for nutritionnal supplements.
References given by the article (not read)
Épigénétique · Inserm, La science pour la santé
Homocysteine levels in vegetarians versus omnivores. Krajcovicová-Kudlácková M et al. Ann Nutr Metab. 2000;44(3):135-8.
Plasma total homocysteine status of vegetarians compared with omnivores: a systematic review and meta-analysis. Obersby D et al. Br J Nutr. 2013 Mar 14;109(5):785-94.

*) Impact négatif de l’oxalate sur le métabolisme : Chaos biochimique !
(in French, translator needed).
The article gives the asked links (=> “Sources et Références” + other interesting links) but in order to make it easier for the reader, I’ll give some translated excerpts. The “references, given in numbers” are mentioned afterwards (beneath).

Excerpts (translated)
- How are oxalate stones formed?
Oxalate is a residue of metabolism and is normally excreted from the body after its formation. Although 50% of oxalate results from regular/ordinary metabolism, 10-15% of oxalate is derived from diet. (1) Once oxalate is formed, it normally combines with calcium to be excreted in the stool. When large amounts of unabsorbed fat are available (e.g. due to fat malabsorption), calcium binds preferentially to fat rather than oxalate. This leaves the oxalate available to be easily reabsorbed by the colon and ends up in the urinary tract. In conditions where fat malabsorption is present, oxalate in urine is elevated. It is therefore necessary to ensure that lipids are properly digested, either by temporarily reducing the quantity or by providing additional digestive enzymes. (2)

Most people are unaware of the problem.
Oxalates generate great biochemical chaos in the body (3), more than any other component (except mercury).
Problems linked to sulfur (and by extension histamine and salicylates) can be caused by a struggling metabolism, which is no longer able to process excess foods rich in oxalates. It is the entire metabolism (the liver via different systems linked to sulfation, methylation) and the deprivation of nutrients useful to intestinal bacteria, which are altered. For example, pyroxidine (B6) is depleted in this oxalate neutralization process. We need B6 in the process of exchanging an oxalate molecule with a sulfate molecule. B6 is necessary for the functioning of approximately 150 enzymes linked to approximately 60 genes that regulate neurotransmitters and liver detoxification as well as general metabolism. (4)

Dietary Guidelines
(…)
NB: It's all a question of proportion and frequency, if you let the body eliminate toxins, but we will see below how lovers of chocolate, tea and spinach and red berry smoothies can struggle...

Note: The body can handle 50 mg oxalates per day because of half-life. 100 mg is an upper limit.

- We need B6 in the process of exchanging an oxalate molecule with a sulfate molecule. B6 is necessary for the functioning of approximately 150 enzymes linked to approximately 60 genes that regulate neurotransmitters and liver detoxification as well as general metabolism. (4)

- Oxalates hinder sulfate transport (via Sat1 transporter)
The main reason why oxalates are so toxic is that each molecule of oxalate that enters our body will induce a loss of a molecule of sulfate. Sulfate uses the same transporter to enter and leave the body. (…) Parenthesis Note in passing that this could be a defense mechanism of certain bacterial strains, including candida albicans, in the presence of excess oxalate. (5) We need sulfur to flush out excess oxalate. As oxalates are toxic to the microbiota, certain strains are overexcited (quorum sensing) (6-7) and proliferate…
End of parenthesis. See also below, the reflections of researcher Susan Owens, to meditate on oxalates, candidiasis, SIBO and other dysbioses. (5)

A Reduced Level of B6 Induced
As if this were not enough (the loss of sulfate), high levels of oxalate induce a significant loss of vitamin b6 (pyridoxine). Do we really need to be reminded how important B vitamins are to our health – how they activate genetic pathways, produce energy, improve detoxification and allow our cells to survive. Vitamin B6, aka pyridoxine, is a particularly important B vitamin. It has many roles in the body, particularly in the liver where it helps process amino acids to promote growth, repair and detoxification. ( 8 ) (…)

- Genetic polymorphism
Some people suffer from what's called genetic polymorphism, where certain genes code for a protein that doesn't do the methylation process well. 30% of people suffer from it, without being really aware of it (to a varying degree).

The low sulfate, high oxalate phenotype (methylation genetic pathways => MTHFR gene). Now that we have realized that high oxalate impacts our B6 levels, we also need to address the impact of the oxalate-sulfate connection. Thus, we will be able to identify widespread methylation and biochemical problems that are caused by high oxalate levels. By finding the relationships between oxalates, sulfates, kidney health, hormones, liver detoxification and more, we will begin to recognize the high oxalate, low sulfate phenotype. (9)
The main idea with oxalate toxicity is that it causes problems in the liver and kidneys – our two most important detoxification organs. While high oxalate levels cause liver problems and loss of vitamin B6, it is in the kidneys that oxalate causes us to lose much of our precious sulfate. The kidney is a key player in sulfate-related issues because it is the organ responsible for keeping our sulfate levels in balance. As already stated, the kidney must exchange an oxalate molecule for a sulfate molecule via the Sat1 transporter, and when oxalates are high, this causes a loss of sulfate in the urine. This can confuse quite a few patients, researchers and internal medicine practitioners. Everyone wants to know where this excess sulfate in urine comes from, and Dr. Rostenberg believes the answer has to do with oxalates and kidney polymorphisms. (…)

Note, however, that oxalates in small amounts are not a problem for the body. (10) As long as the body can safely detoxify each oxalate molecule, these oxalates will not bother us. The key is not to let them accumulate...
Otherwise, you might face this type of problem(s):

Biochemical issues associated with the low sulfate, high oxalate phenotype
• Slowed growth
• Slow metabolism
• Changed behavior
• Decreased insulin function
• High LDL and total cholesterol
• Increased liver stress and fatty liver
• Impaired detoxification and upregulated SULT genes
• Low cortisol, DHEA and adrenal hormone deficiency
• Increased colitis and inflammatory bowel disease
• Decreased mucus production in the intestine
• Increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut)
• Sensitivity to aggressive intestinal bacteria
• Reduction of expression of metallothioneins and detoxification of heavy metals
• Increased size and vascularity of tumors
• Excess serotonin in the blood and decrease in serotonin in the brain
• Autism linked to sulfate wastage

Sources et Références
1. Mary Flesher, Clinical Dietitian, Vancouver General Hospital.
https://badgut.org/information-centre/health-nutrition/oxalate-stones/

2. J’utilise Enzymedica LipoGold lorsque le repas est assez chargé. Bien dosé en lipases. Mais faiblement dosé pour les autres types. Le prix est correct.

3. Ela Marmotte

4. Ela Marmote est d’avis de ne pas se supplémenter en B6 à l’aveugle, sans avoir fait un test d’analyse pour établir qu’il y a un déficit ou une carence. Il faut trouver un équilibre.
La prise de B6 doit être équilibrée, avec un apport de Mg plus important. Du bisglycinate de Mg (car de préférence amino-chélaté) ou du citrate de Mg car le citrate empêche les cristaux de Ca de se solidifier, et donc de s’amalgamer de manière ferme, pourvu que vous buviez suffisamment d’eau peu minéralisée, et que vous ayez une alimentation acido-basique équilibrée (sinon relargage de Ca osseux via PTH).

5. Réflexions de la chercheuse Susan Owens, à méditer sur les oxalates, la candidose, le SIBO et autres dysbioses. Je cite :
Quand les équipes de chercheurs se sont mis à étudier les Candida exposés aux oxalates, ils ont découvert que les oxalates en altérant l'ATP, provoquent une réponse de stress chez les Candida les incitant à se convertir de leur forme de levures en formes filamenteuses pour former des biofilms afin de se protéger des oxalates. D'autre part des mycologistes suisses ont observé que dans la nature, les Candida et autres levures/champignons épandent leurs biofilms afin que les bactéries trouvent un chemin pour pouvoir se rendre jusqu'aux oxalates qu'elles vont alors pouvoir décomposer. Il ne faut qu'un pas pour comprendre que ce qui se passe dans la nature se reproduit de la même façon chez l'humain.
Bactéries et levures/champignons commensaux dans le corps humain travaillent de concert, en interactions, pour se protéger mais aussi pour protéger leur hôte et leur environnement.
Vous pourriez dire à vos patients ou aux praticiens de se pencher sur les oxalates et à ceux pressés de briser les biofilms qu'au lieu d'utiliser des traitements "briseurs ou disrupteurs de biofilms" affectant négativement ces biofilms qui sont des niches pour de bonnes bactéries, et qui par ailleurs endommagent les mucines intestinales, qu'ils pourraient faire preuve de plus de bon sens en commençant par regarder la quantité d'oxalates qu'ils ingèrent quotidiennement."
- Je n'ai jamais adhéré à ces destructions des biofilms ni vu de franches réussites de longue durée chez ceux qui le faisaient, ça revenait tôt ou tard y compris leurs dysbioses (Sibo candidose and co) tant qu'ils ne traitaient pas les dessous de la pointe de l'iceberg. Que ce soit SIBO, SIFO, LIBO, LIFO et IMO, ce ne sont pas des infections, et elles ne doivent pas être traitées comme telles.

6. Le langage des bactéries: le quorum sensing
Le quorum sensing est un système de communication interne bactérien utilisé par de nombreuses bactéries. Le quorum sensing pousse les bactéries à se coordonner dans leur environnement. Puisque le milieu change très rapidement, les bactéries doivent s'adapter rapidement pour survivre. Leur réponse au signal inclut l'adaptation à avoir suffisamment de certains nutriments pour survivre, à se défendre envers d'autres micro-organismes qui pourraient entrer en compétition pour les mêmes nutriments, et à éviter des composés toxiques dangereux pour les bactéries.

7. Sulfate V: An Introduction To Oxalate Toxicity & Gut Dysbiosis
Sulfate V: An Introduction To Oxalate Toxicity & Gut Dysbiosis
H2S, maybe a way to neutralize excess oxalates.
Gut dysbiosis and hydrogen sulfide-dominant SIBO may be potential solutions to a defective sulfate system. A way for bacteria to adapt to a lack of sulfur.

8. The Down Side to High Oxalates – Problems with Sulfate, B6, Gut and Methylation.
March 21, 2016.
The Down Side to High Oxalates – Problems with Sulfate, B6, Gut, and Methylation
Video Link: Proposed Mechanism of Renal Oxalate Handling (See figure 4.2 – Pathway for oxalate removal and detoxification).
View: https://youtu.be/zBsOFMIT9VI

- Pathway for oxalate removal and detoxification
- The low sulfate, high oxalate phenotype

9. For more videos and learning about Oxalates, Gut and Methylation Dr. Rostenberg recommends:
Organic Acid Test – An Essential Tool for Gut-Methylation Problems
Oxalates and MTHFR: Understanding the Gut-Kidney Axis

10. Oxalates and MTHFR: Understanding the Gut-Kidney Axis
Oxalates in mild amounts are not a problem for the body. As long as the body can safely detoxify each molecule of oxalate, they will not bother us. Even though they are nasty in high amounts, the body has the ability to get rid of oxalates. We have already seen how proper digestion and gallbladder function protects us from absorbing oxalates. What we haven’t talked about yet is how our body gets rid of oxalates once they enter and build up to toxic levels.

Other references:
See given link (title)
=> Impact négatif de l’oxalate sur le métabolisme : Chaos biochimique !

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks for your developed answer. I appreciate the explanations and the links. Need some time to deepen and cogitate.

You have flipped the discussion from mercury and B1 to oxylates and b6 with your long reply that I am not going to display again. I'm not willing to entertain your ideas at this time, sorry. You should start a different thread for your different topic.

@derv This discussion thread is about vitamin B1 primarily. Mercury discussion is appropriate because mercury poisoning damages/interferes with the pentose phosphate pathway and this problem is relieved via vitamin b1 supplementation.

Cell damage through pentose phosphate pathway in fetus fibroblast cells exposed to methyl mercury - PubMed

Methylmercury (MeHg) is a global pollutant that causes malformations. There has been no direct evidence for the effect of MeHg on pentose phosphate pathway (PPP). In embryonic development, PPP is much more active. This pathway produces ribose for DNA/RNA production. It is possible that one of...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"To assess the protective effects of thiamin, the infected cells were incubated with different concentrations of thiamin. The obtained results show that thiamin pyrophosphate supplementation correlated with the toxicity. This finding confirms that thiamin therapy is suitable for the prevention of MeHg toxicity. Our study provides basic data for prevention and treatment of MeHg toxicity via boosting PPP."

 

[Highserotonin90]

@mostlylurking Is it true that HCL is only absorbed at 4% in the intestine?

 

[youngsinatra]

The thiamine hydrochloride has a relatively poor bioavailability of 3-5%, so 100mg equal 3-5mg effectively, which is still pretty good.

But if you take it with antithiamine factors like coffee, high refined carbohydrate intake, alcohol etc. you could still run low on it.

Are you sufficient in magnesium and folate? Those are needed to convert B1 into TPP, thiamine pyrophosphate.

 

[mostlylurking]

@mostlylurking Is it true that HCL is only absorbed at 4% in the intestine?

I know the absorption rate of thiamine hcl is very poor but I don't think that you can nail the percentage like that because different people's absorption ability vary.