• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

What Is The Peat Approach To Atherosclerosis?

Bluebell

Member
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
474
I'd be interested to know the Peat way to deal with atherosclerosis, as I believe that is something I'm dealing with.

The only thing I could think of is to take thyroid, as it would help convert cholesterol in the blood to hormones.

And vitamin K to help remove calcium from artery walls maybe.

Should I reduce the amount of fat in my diet too (it's all dairy or meat fat). Sugar is OK?

Thank you for any help, very much appreciated.
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
RP specifically mentioned low thyroid being one of the cause of Atherosclerosis
and cholesterol being protective against it. PUFA is one of the major cause for
this. Since it takes about 4 years to replace stored PUFA with new diet, one needs
Niacinamide and or Aspirin to block PUFA release. Keeping blood sugar steady with
frequent meals also help. He also talked about estrogen and progesterone balance
for healthy blood vessels. It is all about whole approach, not a particular method.
 

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,177
Location
USA / Europe
Bluebell said:
I'd be interested to know the Peat way to deal with atherosclerosis, as I believe that is something I'm dealing with.

The only thing I could think of is to take thyroid, as it would help convert cholesterol in the blood to hormones.

And vitamin K to help remove calcium from artery walls maybe.

Should I reduce the amount of fat in my diet too (it's all dairy or meat fat). Sugar is OK?

Thank you for any help, very much appreciated.

Vitamin K2 (MK-4) has been shown to reverse it (in animal models). The rest of Peat's recommendations about thyroid all apply as well.
 

Bluebell

Member
Thread starter
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
474
Thanks. I have been peat-ing over a year now, but have had a lot of PUFA in the past.

I might have niacinamide 250mg x 3 per day. Aspirin 320mg x 2 per day. Thyroid. And vitamin K2-MK4 5mg x 2 per day (orally not on skin).

Do these dosages sound OK ... more K2?
 

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,177
Location
USA / Europe
Bluebell said:
Thanks. I have been peat-ing over a year now, but have had a lot of PUFA in the past.

I might have niacinamide 250mg x 3 per day. Aspirin 320mg x 2 per day. Thyroid. And vitamin K2-MK4 5mg x 2 per day (orally not on skin).

Do these dosages sound OK ... more K2?

The dose of K2 that reversed calcification of the aortas in rodents were quite high. I think something on the order of 50mg/kg, which for a human would be 500mg+ per day. I have not seen any studies in humans to replicate this, but someone posted a study that even 2mg of K2 a day improved bone density, which shows K2 works even in small doses. I think this is a good question for Peat actually.
The studies in Japan with K2 for osteoporosis say 1mg/kg human dose is what is needed to stop AND reverse the condition, so maybe that's what's needed for humans too. I think I saw somewhere on the forum that Peat recommended 30mg-45mg of K2 to somebody for a chronic condition.
Sorry I can't be more helpful but the studies on K2 are few and they do not target CVD. Maybe somebody can ask Peat for dosage of K2 specifically to reverse calcification of soft tissue, which is what CVD is.
 

SaltGirl

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2013
Messages
178
One of the old methods to treat atherosclerosis was to give niacin and iodine. However, the iodine dosage used was usually above 100mg so very high.
 

Bluebell

Member
Thread starter
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
474
haidut said:
The dose of K2 that reversed calcification of the aortas in rodents were quite high. I think something on the order of 50mg/kg, which for a human would be 500mg+ per day. I have not seen any studies in humans to replicate this, but someone posted a study that even 2mg of K2 a day improved bone density, which shows K2 works even in small doses. I think this is a good question for Peat actually.
The studies in Japan with K2 for osteoporosis say 1mg/kg human dose is what is needed to stop AND reverse the condition, so maybe that's what's needed for humans too. I think I saw somewhere on the forum that Peat recommended 30mg-45mg of K2 to somebody for a chronic condition.
Sorry I can't be more helpful but the studies on K2 are few and they do not target CVD. Maybe somebody can ask Peat for dosage of K2 specifically to reverse calcification of soft tissue, which is what CVD is.

A lot more than I thought. That is super helpful, thank you. I agree this is something worth asking Peat directly about, I'll do so and report back here if I get an answer.
 

Bluebell

Member
Thread starter
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
474
SaltGirl said:
One of the old methods to treat atherosclerosis was to give niacin and iodine. However, the iodine dosage used was usually above 100mg so very high.

SaltGirl, that's interesting. I've heard of niacin being used, now you mention it, but not the iodine. I will look into it ...
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
In KMUD interviews RP mentioned 1-10 mg of high potency K1 and K2 mix formula
as " safe and probably therapeutic" dose for reversing calcification of arteries.
He also mentioned 15 mg use in high blood pressure and cancer. In peatarian email exchange
he said this about K1 and K2 " K1 is probably a little less active than K2."
He is using a lot of "probably" in vitamin K related matters.
He also mentioned Thorne's vitamin K drops. I believe those are K2.
 

burtlancast

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
2,937
Just to add something to the discussion, Owen Fonorow has written a book based on the Linus Pauling use of vit C + Lysine to reverse atherosclerosis ("Practicing Medicine Without A License? The Story of the Linus Pauling Therapy for Heart Disease").

Broda Barnes wrote too he practically never saw a case of hypothyroid people treated with thyroid that died of heart disease.
 

Bluebell

Member
Thread starter
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
474
Mittir said:
In KMUD interviews RP mentioned 1-10 mg of high potency K1 and K2 mix formula
as " safe and probably therapeutic" dose for reversing calcification of arteries.
He also mentioned 15 mg use in high blood pressure and cancer. In peatarian email exchange
he said this about K1 and K2 " K1 is probably a little less active than K2."
He is using a lot of "probably" in vitamin K related matters.
He also mentioned Thorne's vitamin K drops. I believe those are K2.

Mittir, that answers the question, so I won't ask need to ask directly after all. Thank you!
 

Bluebell

Member
Thread starter
Joined
May 24, 2013
Messages
474
burtlancast said:
Just to add something to the discussion, Owen Fonorow has written a book based on the Linus Pauling use of vit C + Lysine to reverse atherosclerosis ("Practicing Medicine Without A License? The Story of the Linus Pauling Therapy for Heart Disease").

Broda Barnes wrote too he practically never saw a case of hypothyroid people treated with thyroid that died of heart disease.

Fantastic, thanks - I had forgotten about the C + lysine treatment.
 

aguilaroja

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
836
burtlancast said:
...Broda Barnes wrote too he practically never saw a case of hypothyroid people treated with thyroid that died of heart disease.

As burtlancast notes, Dr. Peat has mentioned Broda Barnes's success using thyroid for heart health, detailed in the Barnes book: "Solved: The Riddle of Heart Attacks". Dr. Peat has also cited Barnes's views frequently about thyroid issues.

There are various summaries of Barnes's views on heart disease on blogs, Here is one (no endorsement nor critique of the blogger intended):

http://www.hotzehwc.com/en-US/Resource- ... sease.aspx

"Dr. Barnes knew of the relationship between hypothyroidism and high cholesterol and realized that his patients who were being treated for hypothyroidism had a remarkably low rate of heart attacks, despite the fact that the incidence of heart attacks was rising in the general population.....

In 1970, Dr. Barnes had 1,569 patients on natural thyroid hormone who were observed for a total of 8,824 patient years. These patients were classified by age, sex, elevated cholesterol, and high blood pressure, and compared to similar patients in the Framingham Study. Based on the statistics derived in the Framingham Study, seventy-two of Dr. Barnes’s patients should have died from heart attacks; however, only four patients had done so. This represents a decreased heart attack death rate of 95 percent in patients who received natural thyroid hormone—a truly remarkable finding."
 
Joined
Mar 21, 2014
Messages
180
Barnes published a peer reviewed paper on using thyroid to prevent cardiovascular disease in his patients:

PROPHYLAXIS OF ISCHÆMIC HEART-DISEASE BY THYROID THERAPY
Broda O. Barnes, Ph.D., M.D.
The Lancet Volume 274, Issue 7095, 22 August 1959, Pages 149–152

Peat also talks about keeping iron stores low and hydrophobic (fat soluble) vitamin intake high to avoid cardiovascular disease.
 

burtlancast

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
2,937
People interested in the Vit C + lysine treatment can find Fonorow's presentation of the therapy on the Rense show; just type "Owen Fonorow" on the google video search window.
 

YuraCZ

Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
674
Low carb vs high carb for treating atherosclerosis? I feel like when you have fat/cholesterol deposits in the cardiovascular system then you must choose energy source and worst think what you can do pushing to the body everything at once - fat, cholesterol, carbs, fructose etc.. In this case. I feel like the best choice is to reduce fat and cholesterol intake, because if it's something wrong in the body eating even more fat, cholesterol which can be used in a wrong way is not helping at all.. I know Westside PUFA like this idea also and it makes sense. Also what is worse for the liver in a bad condition. Carbs(primarily starches no high fructose) or butter, eggs etc..
 

stargazer1111

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2017
Messages
425
RP specifically mentioned low thyroid being one of the cause of Atherosclerosis
and cholesterol being protective against it. PUFA is one of the major cause for
this. Since it takes about 4 years to replace stored PUFA with new diet, one needs
Niacinamide and or Aspirin to block PUFA release. Keeping blood sugar steady with
frequent meals also help. He also talked about estrogen and progesterone balance
for healthy blood vessels. It is all about whole approach, not a particular method.

I used to believe this too but I'm suspicious that there is something missing from this picture.

Dr. Fred Kummerow was the first scientist to propose and successfully show that trans fats can cause atherosclerosis and he agreed with Ray Peat that it was the consumption of polyunsaturated fats (along with cigarette smoking) that caused atherosclerosis in most people. He lived to be over 100 years old and his diet consisted of: fruits, vegetables, whole grains, red meat, butter, and eggs. So, his long-term diet was relatively low in PUFA.

However, Dr. Kummerow had an artery blockage at the age of 89 and had to have bypass surgery. So, despite the fact that he actively avoided PUFA for most of his life, he still developed advanced atherosclerosis.

I wonder if Linus Pauling's unified theory of heart disease was correct and if Kummerow was low in vitamin C.

Linus Pauling's hypothesis actually dovetails nicely with the hypotheses of both Broda Barnes and Dr. Kummerow.

Broda Barnes believed that it was hypothyroidism that caused athersclerosis.

Dr. Kummerow believed it was peroxidized PUFA.

Linus Pauling believed it was vitamin C deficiency.

Insufficient vitamin C causes a relative deficit of collagen. When this occurs, the arterial walls are not properly repaired when they are damaged. What damages arterial walls? Lipid peroxidation of PUFA and its byproducts. Vitamin C levels and lipoprotein A levels are negatively correlated. When vitamin C is high, lipoprotein A is low and vice versa. Lipoprotein A is significantly correlated with atherosclerosis. Pauling believed that lipoprotein A evolved as a backup mechanism to repair the arteries in animals that lost the ability to produce their own vitamin C. What else raises lipoprotein A levels? Hypothyroidism.

I also wonder if calcium is simply an innocent bystander in this process since we know that the Maasai get several grams of calcium per day from their traditional diet of milk, blood, and meat but have low rates of heart disease. Kummerow showed that what happens when peroxidized PUFA damages the artery is that sphingomyelin builds up as part of the plaques that patch up the arterial holes. Sphingomyelin is negatively charged and attracts the 2+ calcium ions which stabilize the plaque thereby calcifying it. Vitamin K2 helps to break up the plaques by taking away calcium and putting it into the bones so that the negatively charged sphingomyelin is no longer stabilized by the positive calcium ions.

Vitamin C has the added benefit of reducing lipid peroxidation. Obviously, vitamin E will be helpful too.

So, my flow chart for atherosclerosis incorporates all 3 hypotheses into this:

Vitamin C deficiency + PUFA --> low collagen + hypothyroidism --> unrepaired arterial damage --> increased lipoprotein A + oxidized PUFA to patch up arterial holes --> negatively charged sphingomyelin build up --> attraction of calcium ions to stabilize sphingomyelin negative charge --> plaques are formed --> eventual blockage as the plaques build up --> heart attack
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
9,158
One of his newsletters does mention potassium iodide for reversing atherosclerosis.

I think calcium and K2 MK4 (with good levels of D3 of course) reverse calcification in the body.
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,617
I used to believe this too but I'm suspicious that there is something missing from this picture.

Dr. Fred Kummerow was the first scientist to propose and successfully show that trans fats can cause atherosclerosis and he agreed with Ray Peat that it was the consumption of polyunsaturated fats (along with cigarette smoking) that caused atherosclerosis in most people. He lived to be over 100 years old and his diet consisted of: fruits, vegetables, whole grains, red meat, butter, and eggs. So, his long-term diet was relatively low in PUFA.

However, Dr. Kummerow had an artery blockage at the age of 89 and had to have bypass surgery. So, despite the fact that he actively avoided PUFA for most of his life, he still developed advanced atherosclerosis.

I wonder if Linus Pauling's unified theory of heart disease was correct and if Kummerow was low in vitamin C.

Linus Pauling's hypothesis actually dovetails nicely with the hypotheses of both Broda Barnes and Dr. Kummerow.

Broda Barnes believed that it was hypothyroidism that caused athersclerosis.

Dr. Kummerow believed it was peroxidized PUFA.

Linus Pauling believed it was vitamin C deficiency.

Insufficient vitamin C causes a relative deficit of collagen. When this occurs, the arterial walls are not properly repaired when they are damaged. What damages arterial walls? Lipid peroxidation of PUFA and its byproducts. Vitamin C levels and lipoprotein A levels are negatively correlated. When vitamin C is high, lipoprotein A is low and vice versa. Lipoprotein A is significantly correlated with atherosclerosis. Pauling believed that lipoprotein A evolved as a backup mechanism to repair the arteries in animals that lost the ability to produce their own vitamin C. What else raises lipoprotein A levels? Hypothyroidism.

I also wonder if calcium is simply an innocent bystander in this process since we know that the Maasai get several grams of calcium per day from their traditional diet of milk, blood, and meat but have low rates of heart disease. Kummerow showed that what happens when peroxidized PUFA damages the artery is that sphingomyelin builds up as part of the plaques that patch up the arterial holes. Sphingomyelin is negatively charged and attracts the 2+ calcium ions which stabilize the plaque thereby calcifying it. Vitamin K2 helps to break up the plaques by taking away calcium and putting it into the bones so that the negatively charged sphingomyelin is no longer stabilized by the positive calcium ions.

Vitamin C has the added benefit of reducing lipid peroxidation. Obviously, vitamin E will be helpful too.

So, my flow chart for atherosclerosis incorporates all 3 hypotheses into this:

Vitamin C deficiency + PUFA --> low collagen + hypothyroidism --> unrepaired arterial damage --> increased lipoprotein A + oxidized PUFA to patch up arterial holes --> negatively charged sphingomyelin build up --> attraction of calcium ions to stabilize sphingomyelin negative charge --> plaques are formed --> eventual blockage as the plaques build up --> heart attack
Cholesterol Sulfate Deficiency As A New Model For Heart Disease By Dr. Stephanie Seneff
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
6,824
Dr. Fred Kummerow was the first scientist to propose and successfully show that trans fats can cause atherosclerosis and he agreed with Ray Peat that it was the consumption of polyunsaturated fats (along with cigarette smoking) that caused atherosclerosis in most people. He lived to be over 100 years old and his diet consisted of: fruits, vegetables, whole grains, red meat, butter, and eggs. So, his long-term diet was relatively low in PUFA.

What was the data he used to show Trans Fats caused atherosclerosis? I got interested in Trans Fats a while back, and every study I saw was either observational, or also used an oil that had a much higher level of PUFA than the control. All of the increases in atherosclerosis could have been due to increased PUFA intake. I'm thinking the fact that a lot of places stopped using hydrogenated versions of these high PUFA oils actually made problems much worse, as now there is more PUFA and fewer protective saturated and trans fats in the oils.


I wonder if Linus Pauling's unified theory of heart disease was correct and if Kummerow was low in vitamin C.

Linus Pauling's hypothesis actually dovetails nicely with the hypotheses of both Broda Barnes and Dr. Kummerow.

Broda Barnes believed that it was hypothyroidism that caused athersclerosis.

Dr. Kummerow believed it was peroxidized PUFA.

Linus Pauling believed it was vitamin C deficiency.

Insufficient vitamin C causes a relative deficit of collagen. When this occurs, the arterial walls are not properly repaired when they are damaged. What damages arterial walls? Lipid peroxidation of PUFA and its byproducts. Vitamin C levels and lipoprotein A levels are negatively correlated. When vitamin C is high, lipoprotein A is low and vice versa. Lipoprotein A is significantly correlated with atherosclerosis. Pauling believed that lipoprotein A evolved as a backup mechanism to repair the arteries in animals that lost the ability to produce their own vitamin C. What else raises lipoprotein A levels? Hypothyroidism.

I also wonder if calcium is simply an innocent bystander in this process since we know that the Maasai get several grams of calcium per day from their traditional diet of milk, blood, and meat but have low rates of heart disease. Kummerow showed that what happens when peroxidized PUFA damages the artery is that sphingomyelin builds up as part of the plaques that patch up the arterial holes. Sphingomyelin is negatively charged and attracts the 2+ calcium ions which stabilize the plaque thereby calcifying it. Vitamin K2 helps to break up the plaques by taking away calcium and putting it into the bones so that the negatively charged sphingomyelin is no longer stabilized by the positive calcium ions.

Vitamin C has the added benefit of reducing lipid peroxidation. Obviously, vitamin E will be helpful too.

So, my flow chart for atherosclerosis incorporates all 3 hypotheses into this:

Vitamin C deficiency + PUFA --> low collagen + hypothyroidism --> unrepaired arterial damage --> increased lipoprotein A + oxidized PUFA to patch up arterial holes --> negatively charged sphingomyelin build up --> attraction of calcium ions to stabilize sphingomyelin negative charge --> plaques are formed --> eventual blockage as the plaques build up --> heart attack

Pretty good summary, but you missed one big factor- high body iron stores. Jerome Sullivan even proposed the iron hypothesis back in 1981. Iron stores are elevated in almost every degenerative disease. It also dovetails perfectly with everything you mentioned. Excess iron also promotes PUFA peroxidation. It will also lower vitamin C and E levels in the body. There is research that shows that simply donating blood will increase levels of C, E and other antioxidants in the body.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
S A Biophysical Approach To Altered Consciousness, Ray Peat Health 10
ddjd Peat Approach To Healing From Ciprofloxacin Damage? Ask For Help or Advice 9
ddjd Peat Approach To Gall Bladder Problems? Diet/ Nutrition/ Exercise? Ask For Help or Advice 23
bboone Introduction And Experience (so Far) With A Peat-inspired Diet Approach Meet & Greet 0
S Can't Eat Most Of Peat's Recommendation, Here's My Current Approach Diet, Recipes 38
S A Peat Approach To Unavoidable Testosterone Replacement Therapy Ask For Help or Advice 19
LUH 3417 An Orderly Approach To Ray Peat Ask For Help or Advice 1
B Peat Approach For My Cat Animals 52
W Newbee, Researching the Peat approach to eating. Meet & Greet 7
Vileplume I made an Instagram reel overviewing Ray Peat basics Miscellaneous 0
David PS Ray Peat Interview #74: Vaccine Shedding | Progesterone and Thyroid | Immunology, Ideology, and Power with Ray Peat 11/26/2021 Interviews 16
C Ray Peat advice on Ahus Cancer, Degenerative Diseases 0
J Peat: RNA treatments in animals suggests that they could be terrible Vaccines 5
G Peat on Novelty, Competition and Opportunities Ray Peat Quotes 0
CHEESEHEAD69 Does Ray Peat have an account on this forum? Ask For Help or Advice 17
ursidae Ray Peat’s Thoughts on the Appropriate Amount of Fat in a Diet Diet 72
B AHA releases 2021 Anti-Peat Recommendations Health 0
P Ray Peat Newbie Meet & Greet 4
Aimer Ray Peat Interview Health Odyssey:Ray Peat and what the Cells in our body are really made of Interviews 1
A Ray Peat right about Noam Chomsky, Chomsky says antivaxxers are killers and should be segregated from society Vaccines 43
K Covid nonsense and Pay Peat Health 131
K Covid nonsense and Pay Peat Health 1
Vileplume Ray Peat Philosophy Gems Ray Peat Quotes 18
PeatandPotatoes What is the most important and impactful lesson/information you have learned from Ray Peat Ray Peat Topics 29
K My Personal Version of Peat Diet - low protein and very little fat. Diet 15
G Vitamins/Minerals One Needs To Supplement On a "Peat" Diet? Ask For Help or Advice 25
PeatandPotatoes Your early Peat inspired diet vs. now Diet 4
Whats the "Peat guideline" that dont suit you health wise? Diet 16
nigma Ray Peat inspired health technologies Metabolism 17
L Recommended daily doses of vitamins and minerals according to Ray peat Ask For Help or Advice 18
H Job offer - need someone to help formulate Peat-friendly supplements The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 51
T Peat-Informed Practitioner for Hormones Female Issues 7
Acne and peat? Skin 10
Peat inspired Bodybuilding Log Logs 0
L Ray Peat Interview September 2021 - Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov, Danny Roddy - #70 Interviews 36
Sertorius From Carnivore to Ray Peat - A repository to escape low carb hell Ask For Help or Advice 30
Ray peat grocery haul? Diet 38
RealNeat What's hiding in your staple "Peat" foods?.. Diet 16
L Is healthnatura’s progesterone inferior to Ray Peat’s ProgestE? Progesterone 6
L Ray Peat Interview July 2021 - Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov - #64: Life | Energy | Estrogen | Fibrosis | Calcification | Process Theology | Altruism Interviews 0
Inaut Ray Peat Interview with Tucker Goodrich, David Gornoski on PUFAs, Seed Oils, Benefits of Sugar, Milk Interviews 3
M Has Peat talked about giants existing in the past? Ask For Help or Advice 94
RenaissanceMan Peat Wrong About Omega 3? DHA & EPA increase dopamine and lower serotonin Polyunsaturated Fats, Seed Oils 22
Sefton10 Ray Peat Interview Ray Peat on low carb podcast, August 2021 Interviews 12
M What does Peat use for transportation? what kind of car? Ask For Help or Advice 43
P Has Peat ever mentioned what happens when one takes too much levothyroxine? Ask For Help or Advice 19
ecstatichamster Lost Story of Vitamin E: Shute family that Dr. Peat referred to and estrogen research Ray Peat Topics 1
fr@ #64 @Ray Peat's comment about oils getting in the lungs Danny Roddy 17
T Where I can find/buy Ray Peat's old newsletters? Articles & Newsletters 3
G Aspirin and Androgens Compilation (Anti-Peat-ish) Scientific Studies 6

Similar threads

Top