Weight Gain May Not Be A Bad Thing

[stargazer1111]

Tl;dr: Being overweight and feeling good is preferable to losing weight and feeling sick. Vitamin A and cortisol both cause and exacerbate autoimmune conditions and low-fat, low-calorie, low-carb diets markedly raise cortisol which may be why all dietary methods make me ill. This would also explain why strenuous exercise, which also raises cortisol, markedly worsens my autoimmune conditions.

I'm in my mid 30's. I started struggling with weight issues when I was around 10 or so. I tried many ways of eating over the years to try and get and stay skinny. It started in the summer between my sophomore and junior years of high school (2000). I literally starved myself the whole summer and, shocker, I got really skinny. Nobody recognized me when I got to school the next year and it did feel pretty good to get that recognition.

However, the weight crept up again when I started eating "normally" and by the time I was 20 or so (2004), I went on a seriously low-fat diet. Extreme low fat. My diet basically consisted of lean meat, white rice, and salads. I got skinny, but I also got very sick. I developed severe mental illnesses to the point at which I seriously considered whether I had schizophrenia. I was also constantly stressed to the max during this period and also an alcoholic so I imagine these are confounders preventing me from laying the blame entirely on the low-fat diet. But, I developed some very severe mental and physical problems during this time.

I returned to eating "normally" again after this (2006), but permanent damage had been done and I was forever a changed person with severe hypoglycemia, gastrointestinal problems, and mental problems. That being said, the "bleeding" had been stopped and the damage seemed to be contained by eating "normally" but the weight came back and I was overweight again.

To try and combat the blood sugar dysregulation, I then went on a 6-year ketogenic diet that nearly killed me (2010-2016). Yep, I got skinny again, but at severe costs that nearly took my life. By the end of the 6-year ketogenic run, I was in the hospital with an arrhythmia. I was cold all the time, the gastrointestinal damage became markedly worse than it had been previously to the point at which I was passing blood and had sores in my lower gastrointestinal tract. By the end of this 6-year run, I was so ill and fatigued that I could not stand up for more than a couple of minutes without developing severe back muscle pain and feeling like I was going to pass out.

I'm always asked: "Why did you do it for so long if it made you so sick?" The answer is that it's like a frog in a pot of water being turned up to boiling slowly. I didn't notice the damage being done because it was subtle and progressive. I didn't realize what was happening until the very end when I was about to boil.

From there, I found Paul Jaminet's "Perfect Health Diet" (summer of 2016) that caused me to put on significant amounts of weight and become overweight again, but I was functional again despite the permanent damage left behind from the low-fat and ketogenic eras. I didn't feel great, but I was at least not dying at this point. It was too low in sugar.

Since the summer of 2017, I have been Peating in some form or another. I tried low-fat for a brief period again 6-7 months ago and became ill once again even though I got skinny doing this.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that, I only feel good when I'm moderately overweight. I'm never obese, but I'm probably 20-25 pounds over what the medical establishment considers my ideal weight. If I try to lose weight, no matter what the method is, I get cold, tired, and physically and mentally ill. If I eat lots of sugar, milk, and moderate amounts of saturated fat, I become noticeably overweight but I'm warm, have a high pulse, have lots of energy like I am a kid again, and can actually get through a day of work without feeling like I'm going to die.

There is some evidence in the literature in support of the "set point" hypothesis, that people have a set point of how much fat their body wants to be stored and if you go below this, the body shuts down the metabolism to try and preserve it or if you go above this, your body ramps up the metabolism to try and burn some off.

I have finally settled on being overweight and feeling great. I'm tired of trying to get skinny because every time I get skinny, I get violently ill.

I have developed severe autoimmune complications over the years and I believe two things have caused this: vitamin A and cortisol. Cortisol is well known to cause and exacerbate autoimmune problems and eating low-fat, low-calorie, or low-carb diets all raise cortisol markedly which may explain why I always get sick when trying to "diet." Exercise causes the same damage and worsens my autoimmune conditions greatly. Exercise also raises cortisol, so this is not surprising.

Vitamin A is more controversial, but I took a course of Accutane when I was 15 (2000) that caused severe side effects including suicidality and pathological changes to my gastrointestinal tract. Accutane is a structural isomer of vitamin A. My ketogenic diet (2010-2016) was high in vitamin A because I ate ghee daily and I developed some of the same problems that I had with the Accutane with an additional symptom in memory loss. Then, on Haidut's advice (not blaming him, just saying that I based this decision on his vitamin A writings), I took a large amount of vitamin A (100,000 IU daily for about 6 weeks in the spring of 2017) and this resulted in a similar kind of damage to the Accutane only much more intense including severe memory loss. I was in the ER 5 times that summer with severe hyperthyroidism (hot nodules) and tachycardia. It's taken 3 years to really recover from that "overdose" and I still have some lingering issues even on a zero vitamin A diet.

 

[jb116]

Vitamin A and Accutane are basically polar opposites.

 

[stargazer1111]

Vitamin A and Accutane are basically polar opposites.

No, they aren't. Vitamin A is oxidized from retinol into all-trans retinoic acid. Accutane is 13-cis retinoic acid. Although structural isomers can have different effects in the organism, they can also have similar ones depending on the structural difference. If the enzymes that recognize all-trans retinoic acid can also recognize 13-cis-retinoic acid, then the two can indeed have very similar effects and functions inside the body.

All-trans retinoic acid has also been successfully used for acne treatment and I believe the structural similarity between the two, exempting the cis double bond at the end of the carbon chain of Accutane, allows for this similar function because some of the same enzymes can recognize both isomers. In fact, there are other lesser known isomers naturally produced from the all-trans isomer in the body, including other cis isomers and their enzymes are very likely to recognize the 13-cis isomer.

 

[jb116]

No, they aren't. Vitamin A is oxidized from retinol into all-trans retinoic acid. Accutane is 13-cis retinoic acid. Although structural isomers can have different effects in the organism, they can also have similar ones depending on the structural difference. If the enzymes that recognize all-trans retinoic acid can also recognize 13-cis-retinoic acid, then the two can indeed have very similar effects and functions inside the body.

All-trans retinoic acid has also been successfully used for acne treatment and I believe the structural similarity between the two, exempting the cis double bond at the end of the carbon chain of Accutane, allows for this similar function because some of the same enzymes can recognize both isomers. In fact, there are other lesser known isomers naturally produced from the all-trans isomer in the body, including other cis isomers and their enzymes are very likely to recognize the 13-cis isomer.

lol I know you were dying to post that weren't ya?? uhh?

But no, this is a dangerous road you're on, one that is fraught with confusion. Enzymes "recognizing" molecules has almost nothing to do with the effects said molecules exert on the body. It is the same kind of nonsense, but in the other direction, to point out specificity in terms of a "lock and key" approach to pair molecules and specific protein receptors. Instead, depending on energy status, a protein receptor or enzyme will interact with for example estrogen or progesterone and have profoundly different effects. Looking at the given effects and understanding the antagonism of each molecule will give one a better perspective to what's happening. There is a reason in mouse studies of emphysema Vitamin A, with it's main convert molecule all-trans has an opposite, protective effect versus 13-cis not having that protective characteristic. There is a reason, even in pointing out your own words, All-trans has indeed been successful for acne, amongst other things, but not necessarily with the severe side-effects as accutane. There is a reason 13-cis, as it accumulates in the eyes, interferes with the process of Vitamin A and increases light-sensitivity and possible nyctalopia. Speaking of severe side-effects, there is a reason Vitamin A supplementation helps mitigate the depression that often accompanies Accutane use. I have seen this depression first-hand (not from use however).

So yes, they are effectively antagonists.

 

[stargazer1111]

lol I know you were dying to post that weren't ya?? uhh?

But no, this is a dangerous road you're on, one that is fraught with confusion. Enzymes "recognizing" molecules has almost nothing to do with the effects said molecules exert on the body. It is the same kind of nonsense, but in the other direction, to point out specificity in terms of a "lock and key" approach to pair molecules and specific protein receptors. Instead, depending on energy status, a protein receptor or enzyme will interact with for example estrogen or progesterone and have profoundly different effects. Looking at the given effects and understanding the antagonism of each molecule will give one a better perspective to what's happening. There is a reason in mouse studies of emphysema Vitamin A, with it's main convert molecule all-trans has an opposite, protective effect versus 13-cis not having that protective characteristic. There is a reason, even in pointing out your own words, All-trans has indeed been successful for acne, amongst other things, but not necessarily with the severe side-effects as accutane. There is a reason 13-cis, as it accumulates in the eyes, interferes with the process of Vitamin A and increases light-sensitivity and possible nyctalopia. Speaking of severe side-effects, there is a reason Vitamin A supplementation helps mitigate the depression that often accompanies Accutane use. I have seen this depression first-hand (not from use however).

So yes, they are effectively antagonists.

I think you project emotions and intentions on plain text that aren't there.

You claim that: "Enzymes 'recognizing' molecules has almost nothing to do with the effects said molecules exert on the body."

This is patently false and I would suggest that you pick up a biochemistry textbook to educate yourself as to why this statement is untrue. It is true that molecules have a number of effects on the body outside of the context of enzyme recognition, however this does not mean that enzyme recognition has "almost nothing to do with the effects said molecules exert on the body."

You claim that "...depending on energy status, a protein receptor or enzyme will interact with for example estrogen or progesterone and have profoundly different effects."

This statement does nothing to detract from my claims regarding the similarities between vitamin A and Accutane and is simply a red herring.

You state that "There is a reason in mouse studies of emphysema Vitamin A, with it's main convert molecule all-trans has an opposite, protective effect versus 13-cis not having that protective characteristic."

You are arguing against a strawman here. I never claimed that vitamin A and Accutane could not have antagonistic effects. I claimed that they could have similar effects based on their similar structures and this is a factually, biochemically correct statement.

You state that "There is a reason, even in pointing out your own words, All-trans has indeed been successful for acne, amongst other things, but not necessarily with the severe side-effects as accutane"

Your own statement supports my claim that vitamin A and Accutane may have similar functions in the body based on their similar structures. Also, I will point to the multitude of anecdotes regarding the severe side effects that vitamin A has had on people in addition to the multitude of scientific studies pointing out the damage vitamin A does to the brain, the liver, and the bones when taken to excess (and excess is relative since different people likely have different tolerances based on genetics). Your claim that vitamin A is not associated with the same severe side-effects as Accutane is simply not true.

You state that "There is a reason 13-cis, as it accumulates in the eyes, interferes with the process of Vitamin A and increases light-sensitivity and possible nyctalopia. Speaking of severe side-effects, there is a reason Vitamin A supplementation helps mitigate the depression that often accompanies Accutane use. I have seen this depression first-hand (not from use however).

Again, you are arguing against a strawman here. I never claimed that vitamin A and Accutane could not have antagonistic properties. I claimed that they could have synergistic or similar properties and I will repeat that this is a factually and biochemically true statement.

Could you please cite a source for your claim that vitamin A helps to mitigate the depression often accompanied by Accutane use? Vitamin A supplementation in 2017 caused the exact same suicidal feelings I had while taking Accutane back in 2000 so I am highly skeptical of this claim.

Biochemistry is extremely complex and nuanced. Often, molecules have both antagonistic properties and synergistic properties depending on context. Therefore, it is incorrect to claim that vitamin A and Accutane are completely synergistic or completely antagonistic. The reality in biology is that, depending on the context, both are likely true.

 

[jb116]

I think you project emotions and intentions on plain text that aren't there.

You claim that: "Enzymes 'recognizing' molecules has almost nothing to do with the effects said molecules exert on the body."

This is patently false and I would suggest that you pick up a biochemistry textbook to educate yourself as to why this statement is untrue. It is true that molecules have a number of effects on the body outside of the context of enzyme recognition, however this does not mean that enzyme recognition has "almost nothing to do with the effects said molecules exert on the body."

You claim that "...depending on energy status, a protein receptor or enzyme will interact with for example estrogen or progesterone and have profoundly different effects."

This statement does nothing to detract from my claims regarding the similarities between vitamin A and Accutane and is simply a red herring.

You state that "There is a reason in mouse studies of emphysema Vitamin A, with it's main convert molecule all-trans has an opposite, protective effect versus 13-cis not having that protective characteristic."

You are arguing against a strawman here. I never claimed that vitamin A and Accutane could not have antagonistic effects. I claimed that they could have similar effects based on their similar structures and this is a factually, biochemically correct statement.

You state that "There is a reason, even in pointing out your own words, All-trans has indeed been successful for acne, amongst other things, but not necessarily with the severe side-effects as accutane"

Your own statement supports my claim that vitamin A and Accutane may have similar functions in the body based on their similar structures. Also, I will point to the multitude of anecdotes regarding the severe side effects that vitamin A has had on people in addition to the multitude of scientific studies pointing out the damage vitamin A does to the brain, the liver, and the bones when taken to excess (and excess is relative since different people likely have different tolerances based on genetics). Your claim that vitamin A is not associated with the same severe side-effects as Accutane is simply not true.

You state that "There is a reason 13-cis, as it accumulates in the eyes, interferes with the process of Vitamin A and increases light-sensitivity and possible nyctalopia. Speaking of severe side-effects, there is a reason Vitamin A supplementation helps mitigate the depression that often accompanies Accutane use. I have seen this depression first-hand (not from use however).

Again, you are arguing against a strawman here. I never claimed that vitamin A and Accutane could not have antagonistic properties. I claimed that they could have synergistic or similar properties and I will repeat that this is a factually and biochemically true statement.

Could you please cite a source for your claim that vitamin A helps to mitigate the depression often accompanied by Accutane use? Vitamin A supplementation in 2017 caused the exact same suicidal feelings I had while taking Accutane back in 2000 so I am highly skeptical of this claim.

Biochemistry is extremely complex and nuanced. Often, molecules have both antagonistic properties and synergistic properties depending on context. Therefore, it is incorrect to claim that vitamin A and Accutane are completely synergistic or completely antagonistic. The reality in biology is that, depending on the context, both are likely true.

Ok, cool, I project.
Use the search function.
It's becoming repetitive arguing the anti-Vit A camp.

 

[stargazer1111]

Ok, cool, I project.
Use the search function.
It's becoming repetitive arguing the anti-Vit A camp.

Nice argument there.

 

[jb116]

Nice argument there.

I thought so, less stress
You need to do your own research. If you can't accept the effects of the molecules and want to cling to "theories" that's fine.
Actual effects, studies, and personal practice with clients with Vit A including accutane users is good evidence to me.

 

[stargazer1111]

I thought so, less stress
You need to do your own research. If you can't accept the effects of the molecules and want to cling to "theories" that's fine.
Actual effects, studies, and personal practice with clients with Vit A including accutane users is good evidence to me.

I have done plenty of "research." I hold 3 science degrees, two of which are biochemical degrees, one of which is a graduate degree and I am currently working on 3 graduate degrees in metabolism.

Also, I do not think you understand the scientific definition of the word "theory" based on your use of it here.

What sort of practitioner are you?

 

[jb116]

I have done plenty of "research." I hold 3 science degrees, two of which are biochemical degrees, one of which is a graduate degree and I am currently working on 3 graduate degrees in metabolism.

Also, I do not think you understand the scientific definition of the word "theory" based on your use of it here.

What sort of practitioner are you?

Oh awesome! So you're good to go man.

 

[stargazer1111]

Oh awesome! So you're good to go man.

Another brilliant argument.

Also, you did not answer my question.

 

[jb116]

Another brilliant argument.

Also, you did not answer my question.

Thanks man, I appreciate it.

After years of trying and trying, I decided to leave the academic sphere of nutrition and went into the practice. I'm heavily under qualified as you pointed out, since not being as bemused by academia. My only accomplishment has been helping people get over degenerative conditions with what I do know and that I've put into practice. That's been my regret now for years, that I wish I had drowned myself in studies, most of which can be thrown away any way (and maybe I felt sorry for them too??) rather than use the effectual information that I had learned prior to that. That and I should've maybe helped the accutane person with more accutane because that would've followed the pharmaceutical/big med model, which means more cha ching. So, I don't understand, as you said, the definition of the word theory, I've only been practically progressing. Which means, you keep going man, you're on the road to success and are good to go Vit A and accutane are equals, and more cool ideas like that, keep going!

 

[shine]

This thread made me depressed. Probably took too much poison A while reading it.

 

[stargazer1111]

Thanks man, I appreciate it.

After years of trying and trying, I decided to leave the academic sphere of nutrition and went into the practice. I'm heavily under qualified as you pointed out, since not being as bemused by academia. My only accomplishment has been helping people get over degenerative conditions with what I do know and that I've put into practice. That's been my regret now for years, that I wish I had drowned myself in studies, most of which can be thrown away any way (and maybe I felt sorry for them too??) rather than use the effectual information that I had learned prior to that. That and I should've maybe helped the accutane person with more accutane because that would've followed the pharmaceutical/big med model, which means more cha ching. So, I don't understand, as you said, the definition of the word theory, I've only been practically progressing. Which means, you keep going man, you're on the road to success and are good to go Vit A and accutane are equals, and more cool ideas like that, keep going!

There is nothing wrong with not being in academia and I wasn't citing my credentials to tear you down nor to toot my own horn. I was citing them to point out that I have studied this for many years now and am not just pulling ideas out of my ****. Seriously, Voet and Voet Biochemistry textbooks are great. If you haven't read one, I recommend it.

Your sarcastic attempt to put words in my mouth with "Vit A and accutane are equals..." does not facilitate a productive discussion. I never claimed they were equals and your statement here shows you either didn't understand or didn't read my initial reply with all the bolded text. I said, in certain contexts they may have similar functions and this is biochemically and factually correct to say.

You still haven't answered my question and this question isn't a sarcastic one, I'm literally just asking to see what sort of background you have on this. You don't have to provide details that will reveal your personal identity. I'm just asking what kind of practice you have generally. Also, are you saying here that you have only worked with one person taking Accutane in total?

 

[jb116]

There is nothing wrong with not being in academia and I wasn't citing my credentials to tear you down nor to toot my own horn. I was citing them to point out that I have studied this for many years now and am not just pulling ideas out of my ****. Seriously, Voet and Voet Biochemistry textbooks are great. If you haven't read one, I recommend it.

Your sarcastic attempt to put words in my mouth with "Vit A and accutane are equals..." does not facilitate a productive discussion. I never claimed they were equals and your statement here shows you either didn't understand or didn't read my initial reply with all the bolded text. I said in certain contexts, they may have similar functions and this is biochemically and factually correct to say.

You still haven't answered my question and this question isn't a sarcastic one, I'm just literally just asking to see what sort of background you have on this. You don't have to provide details that will reveal your personal identity. I'm just asking what kind of practice you have generally. Also, are you saying here that you have only worked with one person taking Accutane in total?

Are you being sarcastic??

 

[stargazer1111]

Are you being sarcastic??

Are you a licensed nutritionist? You didn't make it clear in your reply.

 

[jb116]

Are you a licensed nutritionist? You didn't make it clear in your reply.

Yes, but I thought your initial attempts to tear me down were genuine. Now, seeing as they are not, by your own admission, there is a level of trust that has been lost here.
I think you should continue on your trek to push poison A out, for what it is, such as in many of my experiences, a saving grace and establish some foothold for accutane. Maybe to your point, we could even bring to light the value of depression. It maybe builds character???

 

[stargazer1111]

Yes, but I thought your initial attempts to tear me down were genuine. Now, seeing as they are not, by your own admission, there is a level of trust that has been lost here.
I think you should continue on your trek to push poison A out, for what it is, such as in many of my experiences, a saving grace and establish some foothold for accutane. Maybe to your point, we could even bring to light the value of depression. It maybe builds character???

For someone who is supposed to be in the business of helping people, you sure seem to have a chip on your shoulder. I feel sorry for your "clients."

 

[jb116]

For someone who is supposed to be in the business of helping people, you sure seem to have a chip on your shoulder. I feel sorry for your "clients."

Wait, are you tearing me down or not?? If so, I can trust you again. This is getting very confusing.

 

[Murtaza]

vitamin A is not accutane. its a shame your ten graduate degrees couldnt teach you that @stargazer1111