WARNING: CO2-related Death

[Xisca]

This almost sounds as though you are saying that if we don't get to live forever, then life is not worth living at all, or there's no point in trying to figure out anything about how to live healthy?

No I think it is about time investment. Is it worth to search and loose time and eventually gain some more time on earth!?
Or else it is better to just go to the bar with some friends and have a beer!
And close the computer.

 

[Xisca]

I thought the body is supposed to respond to high blood CO2 is by exhaling CO2 more quickly? Does the body actually reduce CO2 production at the cellular level in response to increased blood CO2?
my guess would be that the mechanism for lower cellular CO2 in this case is decreased oxygen availability and increased lactic acid.

Increased lactic acid means less co2 production? Your 2 sentences coincide and say the same I think.
And there are more reasons than COPD to not exhale well. You can have impaired ribs and diaphragm movements for physical reasons. I have from a fall and other reasons... Then you can have an excess parasympathetic activation, and this slows heath and breathing.
Then, there are other sources of co2 than your metabolism, like yeast.
And the unbalance of pH is very little anyway, but anough to make the body adapt.
Also, you have to live an active life to breathe out your co2 properly... or you need to live in stress and hyperventilate for this reason!

 

[tara]

He has recommended oxygen mixed with certain percentages of CO2, like 7% CO2 or something like that. I think he was talking about a hospital setting though.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that case when I wrote that. I thought it was more like 4-5% CO2 in O2 in some hospital or emergency situations where O2 would otherwise have been administered.
I was thinking of adding a little CO2 to regular air for extended periods for the DIY home user.

I guess people forget that CO2 can be dangerous. I used to work at a winery and we would have to check the CO2 levels in the cold cellar sometimes because of the high levels during harvest season. You don't want to climb up on a tank and then pass out...

Good example!
I've heard of people trying to do a dry CO2 bath by putting dry ice in their bath tub ...

 

[alywest]

I thought the body is supposed to respond to high blood CO2 is by exhaling CO2 more quickly? Does the body actually reduce CO2 production at the cellular level in response to increased blood CO2? Maybe it's possible this happens given something like COPD where the CO2 cannot be exhaled because of lung inflammation, but even then my guess would be that the mechanism for lower cellular CO2 in this case is decreased oxygen availability and increased lactic acid.

I was starting to gather that if CO2 was lower in the blood then the cells wouldn't produce it, sodium would need to stay in the blood stream instead of entering the cells, which means that the cells would not produce as much CO2 and then calcium would not be evacuated as easily. So this is why Ray Peat is always saying that salt is good because if you don't have enough you are keeping your cells in a low-acid state? (Question mark because what I'm saying is not gospel, just my interpretation.) I know there's a difference between lung and cell CO2 levels, but I think if you increase the CO2 at lung level, you are still increasing it in the bloodstream which is good. According to RP, hypothyroid people have lower levels of bicarbonate in the blood. I haven't heard any actual proof that they could have high bicarbonate, but that has been thrown around a bit. It sounds like high bicarbonate in the blood (at least according Ray Peat) is actually a good state where calcium is being used efficiently.

 

[haidut]

This almost sounds as though you are saying that if we don't get to live forever, then life is not worth living at all, or there's no point in trying to figure out anything about how to live healthy?

+1
Even if it turns out to be inevitable, there's still a good case for seeing how much it can be slowed.

No, I did not say anything about lifespan. I said frailty, and that is is what I am against resigning to. Similar to the study on bonobos and ants. They stay pretty much highly functional until the very end.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/bonobos-do-not-age-due-to-high-thyroid-hormone.3704/
Ants Do Not Age Due To Living In Environment With High Co2

 

[tara]

No, I did not say anything about lifespan. I said frailty, and that is is what I am against resigning to. Similar to the study on bonobos and ants. They stay pretty much highly functional until the very end.

Good point, frailty is different from dying.
I'm against resigning too - but it wasn't me who talked about giving up. :)

 

[alywest]

I agree.
As to the question of knowing about whether one is as an individual likely to benefit from tactics to raise CO2, I would have thought this would respond to a bit of paying attention to one's responses.
Peat has suggested bag breathing just until it feels uncomfortable. For someone who is hypoventilating, I would guess that this would feel bad immediately, and make bad symptoms worse, and would discourage the practice pretty quickly.
If bag breathing feels fine for a minute or two before it feels uncomfortable, then that's what Peat would encourage. If that or other reduced-breathing exercises feel good, calming, energising, and give obvious improvements in symptoms, I would have thought that would be a pretty good indicator that it's helpful for that person at that time?
Seems likely it can change for an individual depending on current state too.
Personally, I think I have hyperventilation habits, and I've had benefits from some tactics but not others. I've also had a brief infection that messed with my lungs for a few days. That showed a stark contrast - during that time I was struggling to breathe enough, and any attempt to breathe less was clearly counterproductive.
Asthma (not my habit) seems to be able to be triggered by hyperventilation (low CO2) in susceptible people, and some people have learned to eliminate symptoms by reducing hyperventilation habits, or to interrupt an attack in the early stages with reduced-breathing exercises. But once an attack is underway, it's too late for that - O2 gets too low and CO2 goes up, and if it gets severe enough it kills.

I'm sure there's more to be gained from studying the useful ranges of CO2 when there is enough O2 available, but I'm still sure there is such a thing as too much CO2 in itself, even if that limit is a higher than sometimes assumed. I know there are situations when carbogen has been very helpful in emergency situations, and quite possibly it could be used more than it is.

I definitely have never bag breathed for more than a few minutes. i have started wearing a surgeon's mask when cleaning which serves s dual purpose of increasing CO2 and blocking out allergens. And i have also had serious altitude sickness, not severe enough to go to the hospital, but pretty miserable. It surprised me that Ray Peat would say get in a bag if you're having altitude sickness. It seems counterintuitive for sure. He said something about it improving the body's ability to utilize the oxygen that is available, even if there isn't a lot. So I guess if you're increasing CO2 in your lungs, inevitably some of that is getting to your bloodstream, which acidifies the blood, and therefore acidifies the cells, making them more efficient at removing calcium and utilizing oxygen. That is my paraphrasing based on limited understanding so someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[tara]

It surprised me that Ray Peat would say get in a bag if you're having altitude sickness.

Did he say that? I haven't seen it.
I think altitude sickness may result from hyperventilating to try to get more O2 via the lungs when the air is thinner - and therefore lowering CO2 too much - and therefore reducing delivery of O2 to tissues?
I can imagine, but no experience etc, that skin delivery of CO2 would allow you to breath more to get the O2 without lowering the CO2 too much, hopefully as he says, increasing O2 delivery to cells.

 

[alywest]

Did he say that? I haven't seen it.
I think altitude sickness may result from hyperventilating to try to get more O2 via the lungs when the air is thinner - and therefore lowering CO2 too much - and therefore reducing delivery of O2 to tissues?
I can imagine, but no experience etc, that skin delivery of CO2 would allow you to breath more to get the O2 without lowering the CO2 too much, hopefully as he says, increasing O2 delivery to cells.

That would definitely make sense as I was really hypothyroid when I had altitude sickness but it hadn't been diagnosed, and I think hyperventilating would match better what I was experiencing. I feel really bad for anyone who goes through that, it was awful, hits you like a ton of bricks. But the skin delivery would bypass the lungs and allow you to calm down and get the O2 where it needs to go.

 

[lollipop]

No, I did not say anything about lifespan. I said frailty, and that is is what I am against resigning to. Similar to the study on bonobos and ants. They stay pretty much highly functional until the very end.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/bonobos-do-not-age-due-to-high-thyroid-hormone.3704/
Ants Do Not Age Due To Living In Environment With High Co2

I so agree with this perspective. The possibility of regeneration and reversing frailty has already been very documented. Many studies have put aging adults 70 - 80 yrs old in a gym, trained them on weights etc. The reversal of many problems was documented. Excuse me for not having any references. If interested, they should be easy to find.

 

[haidut]

It surprised me that Ray Peat would say get in a bag if you're having altitude sickness

Acetazolamide, a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor which raises CO2, is the standard treatment for altitude sickness. So, what's surprising about it? Getting in a CO2 bag arguably achieves the same effects.

 

[alywest]

Acetazolamide, a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor which raises CO2, is the standard treatment for altitude sickness. So, what's surprising about it? Getting in a CO2 bag arguably achieves the same effects.

It is surprising because it seems counterintuitive. Especially because you always hear about people getting oxygen at those levels. I believe in RP, though! Throw me in a bag!

 

[haidut]

It is surprising because it seems counterintuitive. Especially because you always hear about people getting oxygen at those levels. I believe in RP, though! Throw me in a bag!

The point is, this is not about just believing Ray. Like I said, raising CO2 with the drug is standard therapy for mountain sickness. He is just suggesting an alternative way of doing it. I think part of the reason for the recommendation for raising CO2 is that at high altitudes the brain swells and people can actually die from "mountain sickness" if the change in altitude is rapid enough. Acetazolamide (and CO2) help shrink the brain and relieve the intracrianial pressure. Acetzolamide (and CO2) are duiretics in a sense. Acetazolamide is used for something called "pseudotumor cerebri" which is also known as "idiopathic intracranial hypertension" (IIP) and that is what the high altitude visitors get initially before acclimatization. Acetazolamide (and CO2) are also used for relieving hydrocephalus where surgery is not an option or failed (as it the shunts eventually do fail in all cases). Mountain sickness involves IIP and the IIP can also be cause by a number of things at regular altitude including IBS, antiboiotics like tetracyclines (only in high doses) and excessive doses of vitamin A.

 

[alywest]

The point is, this is not about just believing Ray. Like I said, raising CO2 with the drug is standard therapy for mountain sickness. He is just suggesting an alternative way of doing it. I think part of the reason for the recommendation for raising CO2 is that at high altitudes the brain swells and people can actually die from "mountain sickness" if the change in altitude is rapid enough. Acetazolamide (and CO2) help shrink the brain and relieve the intracrianial pressure. Acetzolamide (and CO2) are duiretics in a sense. Acetazolamide is used for something called "pseudotumor cerebri" which is also known as "idiopathic intracranial hypertension" (IIP) and that is what the high altitude visitors get initially before acclimatization. Acetazolamide (and CO2) are also used for relieving hydrocephalus where surgery is not an option or failed (as it the shunts eventually do fail in all cases). Mountain sickness involves IIP and the IIP can also be cause by a number of things at regular altitude including IBS, antiboiotics like tetracyclines (only in high doses) and excessive doses of vitamin A.

That's really interesting because the symptoms you describe of the brain swelling is something that I experience every month, usually right before of after my period. I that makes me think it's endotoxin, hence the connection with IBS? I will look into IIP more, thank you!
*I just looked into this and can't even tell you how much this sounds like me. Last time I got really sick I kept saying it literally felt like an elephant sitting on my chest. I could not move. And the head and neck pain were so bad I just started dry heaving. Thank you thank you thank you.

 

[yerrag]

What if the person smokes pot and cigarettes? Perfectly balanced?

I think smoking will cause lung alveoli to be restricted in oxygen intake and carbon dioxide excretion. Pot probably has an inhibitory effect, and deregulates metabolism. Maybe you're right. The downregulated metabolism will require less oxygen. So smoking pot and pot could work together. Better to smoke it than to ingest it? Maybe not, as it's probably better still to just ingest marijuana,and let the body downregulate automatically without having to restrict oxygen intake artificially thru smoking. Smoking has the long term effect of restricting the release of CO2 thru the lungs, and this lead to excess CO2 retention.

 

[alywest]

I think smoking will cause lung alveoli to be restricted in oxygen intake and carbon dioxide excretion. Pot probably has an inhibitory effect, and deregulates metabolism. Maybe you're right. The downregulated metabolism will require less oxygen. So smoking pot and pot could work together. Better to smoke it than to ingest it? Maybe not, as it's probably better still to just ingest marijuana,and let the body downregulate automatically without having to restrict oxygen intake artificially thru smoking. Smoking has the long term effect of restricting the release of CO2 thru the lungs, and this lead to excess CO2 retention.

I was personally kidding, sorry, bad joke. But I'm sure you're right. I don't know if pot downregulates metabolism, when I used to smoke a lot of pot and cigarettes in my 20's I was quite skinny. My family thought I was anorexic. They weirdly might have some sort of balancing out effect, but I personally don't recommend either. The only thing I would say is if you're hypothyroid you never really know how it's going to affect your metabolism. I think this time in my 20s was when all my issues started. I was metabolizing really fast and probably not eating properly. I always had a fast metabolism as a child so I think this lifestyle kicked it into high gear which was probably really destructive. And then I became hypothyroid at some point so I assume there was some sort of crash, but I don't know how it all works. I don't think pot is worth what you lose if you smoke it, like a clear mind. I also remember at times having a really fast heart rate, which I'm pretty positive was adrenaline. However, with all the new legalization and everything there are certain compounds from the plant such as CBDs which are extracted separately from the THC (which is what gives you that stony feeling.) I don't know if anyone on here knows how they fit into the Peat world. Pot is certainly not all bad, Peat has said it can be protective. And there seem to be a couple of people who believe in cigarettes on this forum.

 

[alywest]

I thought the body is supposed to respond to high blood CO2 is by exhaling CO2 more quickly? Does the body actually reduce CO2 production at the cellular level in response to increased blood CO2? Maybe it's possible this happens given something like COPD where the CO2 cannot be exhaled because of lung inflammation, but even then my guess would be that the mechanism for lower cellular CO2 in this case is decreased oxygen availability and increased lactic acid.

Did he say that? I haven't seen it.
I think altitude sickness may result from hyperventilating to try to get more O2 via the lungs when the air is thinner - and therefore lowering CO2 too much - and therefore reducing delivery of O2 to tissues?
I can imagine, but no experience etc, that skin delivery of CO2 would allow you to breath more to get the O2 without lowering the CO2 too much, hopefully as he says, increasing O2 delivery to cells.

I came across this article while researching diamox and thought you guys might find this interesting:

What does Acetazolamide (Diamox) do?
90% of the blood’s carbon dioxide exists in a chemical called bicarbonate. This carbon dioxide after travelling through your blood is exhaled by your lungs. Diamox forces the kidneys to excrete bicarbonate from your body (when you urinate).

Your body doesn’t like that. It needs the bicarbonate to exhale carbon dioxide through your lungs.

When Diamox forces you to excrete biocarbonates, your blood, which is used to a certain level of acidity, becomes more acidic. When the blood gets acidic it believes that it has more carbon dioxide in it. So the body gets rid of this excess carbon dioxide in a simple way. It starts to breathe deeper and faster, getting rid of the carbon dioxide, and also taking in more oxygen.

In effect, the increased oxygen speeds up the acclimatisation process. It also greatly reduces you of any symptoms of altitude sickness. Which is why Diamox works best when you start on it a day or two before you get to high altitudes.

In a recent conversation with Dr Venkatesh Thuppil, the leading expert in India on high altitude hypoxia and the co-inventor of the HAPO bag, he told me that the best step that a trekker could take to prevent any high altitude sickness was to be on a course of Diamox prior to the start of the trek. He said more lives could be saved and more treks successful if the trekkers were on a course of Diamox than without.

Remember, Diamox accelerates acclimatization. It does not cure anything. If you have headache with any of the above symptoms, even after taking Diamox, it means your acclimatization is not complete and you must descend. Under no circumstances should you climb higher if your symptoms still persists.

 

[yerrag]

Caffeine excess leads to teen death, coroner says - CNN

The devil is in the dose.

Another possibility: potassium deficiency and excess phosphate

There is 100% mortality in heart attack during potassium deficiency in the presence of excess phosphate [Selye], for instance from soft drinks (especialy colas [Hall]).
-loc 550 of 4633 Potassium Nutrition by Charles Weber, MS, 2011

Just don't know if the energy drink is high in phosphate, but certainly the Mountain Dew would be. Not sure about the cafe latte.

 

[Xisca]

Never take your coke with coffee?

 

[yerrag]

Never take your coke with coffee?

I've never tried it, come to think of it. Hot to cold or vice versa. But if both are cold, only at my last hour