WARNING: CO2-related Death

[haidut]

+1, you changed from fat oxidation to sugar oxidation, i don't think it's something set in stone . Just asking but if one believes that fast oxidation mean high ceruloplasmin and slow means low ,did your ceruloplasmin rose once you adapted to your current diet ?


I thought one would have hyperglycemia if fatty are blocking sugar metoblism.

Did not test ceruloplasmin before embarking on Peat. But when I started to feel well and tested it it was just 1 unit below the upper limit.

 

[haidut]

I think haircut was saying fast metabolism to mean a high metabolic rate

Yes, that is what I meant.

 

[yerrag]

Interesting @yerrag. Thank you for the attempt at meta-analysis. MUCH needed as it is easy to get mired in the minutia.

Thanks Lisa. Somewhere inside me I think metabolic typing and the Ray Peat universe can merge and mind meld.

 

[gbolduev]

The only problem I have with all of this is that in healthy people we clearly observe a downregulation of metabolism as we transition from youth into adulthood and then into aging. So, if this is not a change of metabolic types then what is it? If it is a change then those types can be changed in earlier age as well. And why shouldn't we try to address it with pro-metabolic therapies?

Some people get upregulated , some downregulated. It is a lottery ticket of what organ is going to give in first. If kidney goes you can go one way , if adrenal output diminishes than another route.

People ate and have different habbits. if person smokes, he is running into a fast oxidations all the time. if persons smokes pot then slow oxidation. It all depends on habits during your life and food that you eat.

taht is why balancing is the science and cant be applied just as standardized approach.

 

[alywest]

Some people get upregulated , some downregulated. It is a lottery ticket of what organ is going to give in first. If kidney goes you can go one way , if adrenal output diminishes than another route.

People ate and have different habbits. if person smokes, he is running into a fast oxidations all the time. if persons smokes pot then slow oxidation. It all depends on habits during your life and food that you eat.

taht is why balancing is the science and cant be applied just as standardized approach.

What if the person smokes pot and cigarettes? Perfectly balanced?

 

[lepetitcheval]

+1 for spliffs the most gboldeaty way to do the thing that should never be done.

 

[yerrag]

ll these types are simple ACID base imbalances. Respiratory acidosis without compensation, Resp acidosis with compensation. Resp acidosis with overcompensation( in cortisol resistance) Respiratory alkalosis types, these are nervous system imbalances. then you get metabolic imbalances and their types.

I don't understand. I'm trying to unpack what Gbolduev is saying. Appreciate any help.

 

[alywest]

I don't understand. I'm trying to unpack what Gbolduev is saying. Appreciate any help.

Smoke 2 joints in the morning, smoke 2 joints at night, smoke 2 joints in the afternoon, it makes you feel alright. Smoke 2 joints in times of peace, and 2 in time of war. Smoke 2 joints before you smoke 2 joints, and then you smoke 2 more. Plus a carton of cigarettes.

 

[Xisca]

Respiratory acidosis without compensation, Resp acidosis with compensation. Resp acidosis with overcompensation( in cortisol resistance)

What ?

So, why not aim to change it to the fast metabolism type??

Faster yes, too fast no. Or do you mean that too fast does not exist?
For me, too fast should exist in one case: SAVE YOUR LIFE.
High adrenaline and high hearth and breathe.

I'm just saying that perhaps forcing up the metabolism when it doesn't want to be forced up due to some underlying (or obvious) issues in the body might not be the best approach.

There are cases when it is out of order to push, because it seems not up, but it is, underneath.
Then you have to lower the parasympathetic first, and then address the sympathetic that will show up.

I thought one would have hyperglycemia if fatty are blocking sugar metoblism.

I have yet to understand if FA block sugar, and ALL the time. Different tissues seem to run on different fuel, so what is the problem with FA? Isn't it the body that turns voluntarily to FA, sometimes? Health is about having possibilities, and plan A, B, C and more.
And the citric cycle includes fats and protein, not only sugars, they are all fuels.

 

[Ledo]

The only problem I have with all of this is that in healthy people we clearly observe a downregulation of metabolism as we transition from youth into adulthood and then into aging. So, if this is not a change of metabolic types then what is it? If it is a change then those types can be changed in earlier age as well. And why shouldn't we try to address it with pro-metabolic therapies?

Hi Haidut, I know you addressed this point in a reply on another thread but it occured to me now that your dicotomy may be a little off in that when I'm old and lose 10 inches in my vertical jump how can that possibly relate to my ability to improve my jumping skills when young? At some age whatever that may be I'm just never going to be able to match myself in my prime. The cells and neurons that did that are simply gone and never coming back in the traditional sense of working out to improve performance when in a younger state.

So to answer your question "what is it other than a change in metabolic type indicating that type can always be changed" I would say it is a normal degradation of the body capability outside of plastic factors in play when young. Just a thought.

 

[haidut]

Hi Haidut, I know you addressed this point in a reply on another thread but it occured to me now that your dicotomy may be a little off in that when I'm old and lose 10 inches in my vertical jump how can that possibly relate to my ability to improve my jumping skills when young? At some age whatever that may be I'm just never going to be able to match myself in my prime. The cells and neurons that did that are simply gone and never coming back in the traditional sense of working out to improve performance when in a younger state.

So to answer your question "what is it other than a change in metabolic type indicating that type can always be changed" I would say it is a normal degradation of the body capability outside of plastic factors in play when young. Just a thought.

I disagree with the wear and tear theory. If frailty is inevitable then we might as well just give up on everything. But fortunately, it seems that it isn't so.
Aging In Human Mitochondria Fully Reversed By Glycine
Aging May Be An Epigenetic Process

 

[Milky]

If frailty is inevitable then we might as well just give up on everything.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this mode of thinking.

Call it whatever you want, but wear and tear is a valid way to describe reality of how everyone's body degenerates eventually. The idea that we should all look, feel, and perform like we're in our 20's perpetually, then randomly exhale our last breath and drop dead is practically a myth. What it comes down to is energy balance/equilibrium/homestasis/etc. and/or keeping the body functioning optimally for as long as we can keep it going. We're still only prolonging the inevitable, which is that everyone degenerates or becomes more "frail" to some degree. The quality of our life and its duration is why we don't simply "give up on everything".

 

[alywest]

People in hypothyroid state can probably be in both categories. Some very obviously hypoventilate, and that is common in end of life conditions, so it's not surprising if that's what people in hospitals etc see. This is not in conflict with what Rakhimov says - he makes explicit exceptions for situations where there are ventilation-perfusion difficulties, which I think is what gbolduev and mattyb have described (eg COPD, pneumonia, pressure or constraint on lung expansion, CO2 so high at lungs that oxygen cannot by absorbed, etc). In those states, people need to get in oxygen and get rid of CO2, and they don't want to make it any harder than it already is. There may be milder cases in this or related directions that are not yet diagnosed as serious diseases by the medical fraternity, but that nonetheless to don't benefit from reduced breathing.

I heard Ray Peat on KMUD discuss the success of using CO2 for people in high altitudes, ie. mountain climbers, instead of straight oxygen.

 

[haidut]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this mode of thinking.

Call it whatever you want, but wear and tear is a valid way to describe reality of how everyone's body degenerates eventually. The idea that we should all look, feel, and perform like we're in our 20's perpetually, then randomly exhale our last breath and drop dead is practically a myth. What it comes down to is energy balance/equilibrium/homestasis/etc. and/or keeping the body functioning optimally for as long as we can keep it going. We're still only prolonging the inevitable, which is that everyone degenerates or becomes more "frail" to some degree. The quality of our life and its duration is why we don't simply "give up on everything".

Did you see the links I posted? What is driving this inevitable process then? Some mystical force? In the first link they completely reversed the aging phenotype in human cells. I know it is a long way from cells to organism but there is NO evidence that frailty or aging is inevitable. Same with disease - it can, and has been reversed. Cancer and most degenerative disease are simply accelerated forms of aging. Have you read Peat's posts on how sick people are prematurely aged or seen the studies I posted on how breast cancer tissues is about 30 years older than the healthy tissue that surrounds it? It is the same process - fast metabolism = youth, and slow metabolism = aging/disease. Slow metabolism and thus disease CAN be reversed. But everybody is obviously free to believe what they want.

 

[Xisca]

I think that what you call a fast metabolism @haidut might be a balanced metabolism, = fast enough. And a faster is a defensive metabolism when you put too much energy, just because there might not be any tomorrow if you don't! We obviously cannot run on this sort of fast metabolism all the time. We certainly should talk about a basic general metabolism, and then we have rythms of activity and rest, making you go from slow ot fast metabolism during the same day.

 

[Milky]

Did you see the links I posted? What is driving this inevitable process then? Some mystical force? In the first link they completely reversed the aging phenotype in human cells. I know it is a long way from cells to organism but there is NO evidence that frailty or aging is inevitable. Same with disease - it can, and has been reversed. Cancer and most degenerative disease are simply accelerated forms of aging. Have you read Peat's posts on how sick people are prematurely aged or seen the studies I posted on how breast cancer tissues is about 30 years older than the healthy tissue that surrounds it? It is the same process - fast metabolism = youth, and slow metabolism = aging/disease. Slow metabolism and thus disease CAN be reversed. But everybody is obviously free to believe what they want.

Yeah, I saw the links, it's not my intention to argue with you on these points, I said I disagree with the mode of thinking that we should all just give up if frailty is inevitable. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, it's still a simple fact that everyone dies eventually and I just don't think taking a nihilistic approach is the answer, nor do I think 'beliefs' have much to do with it. It's ironic that you're so upbeat about finding the answer to reversing aging, but you'd want to throw up your hands and just give up if there were hard evidence that it's hopeless. If anything, there's way more evidence for the inevitability of aging than not. You seem to be taking my comments personally though so I'll leave it alone.

 

[Xisca]

Yes we are all gonna die one day, and we do not like the idea!
So I love the answer "Yes, one day... but all the other days we do not!"

The problem is to profit of life and eventually die more early, or search and loose time and eventually gain some more time on earth!

 

[tara]

And while I agree, bag breathing is a temporary fix, I do think that it can be necessary when a hypothyroid person is hyperventilating, which is something that can happen all too frequently.

I agree.
As to the question of knowing about whether one is as an individual likely to benefit from tactics to raise CO2, I would have thought this would respond to a bit of paying attention to one's responses.
Peat has suggested bag breathing just until it feels uncomfortable. For someone who is hypoventilating, I would guess that this would feel bad immediately, and make bad symptoms worse, and would discourage the practice pretty quickly.
If bag breathing feels fine for a minute or two before it feels uncomfortable, then that's what Peat would encourage. If that or other reduced-breathing exercises feel good, calming, energising, and give obvious improvements in symptoms, I would have thought that would be a pretty good indicator that it's helpful for that person at that time?
Seems likely it can change for an individual depending on current state too.
Personally, I think I have hyperventilation habits, and I've had benefits from some tactics but not others. I've also had a brief infection that messed with my lungs for a few days. That showed a stark contrast - during that time I was struggling to breathe enough, and any attempt to breathe less was clearly counterproductive.
Asthma (not my habit) seems to be able to be triggered by hyperventilation (low CO2) in susceptible people, and some people have learned to eliminate symptoms by reducing hyperventilation habits, or to interrupt an attack in the early stages with reduced-breathing exercises. But once an attack is underway, it's too late for that - O2 gets too low and CO2 goes up, and if it gets severe enough it kills.

I heard Ray Peat on KMUD discuss the success of using CO2 for people in high altitudes, ie. mountain climbers, instead of straight oxygen.

I'm sure there's more to be gained from studying the useful ranges of CO2 when there is enough O2 available, but I'm still sure there is such a thing as too much CO2 in itself, even if that limit is a higher than sometimes assumed. I know there are situations when carbogen has been very helpful in emergency situations, and quite possibly it could be used more than it is.

 

[tara]

If frailty is inevitable then we might as well just give up on everything.

This almost sounds as though you are saying that if we don't get to live forever, then life is not worth living at all, or there's no point in trying to figure out anything about how to live healthy?

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this mode of thinking.

+1
Even if it turns out to be inevitable, there's still a good case for seeing how much it can be slowed.

 

[schultz]

If we want to increase co2 produced at cellular level, for me it makes sense that we need to evacuate co2 well. Then the body will want to increase co2 production by cells. I can understand that, if blood co2 is already high, then the body will try to limit cells production of co2.

I thought the body is supposed to respond to high blood CO2 is by exhaling CO2 more quickly? Does the body actually reduce CO2 production at the cellular level in response to increased blood CO2? Maybe it's possible this happens given something like COPD where the CO2 cannot be exhaled because of lung inflammation, but even then my guess would be that the mechanism for lower cellular CO2 in this case is decreased oxygen availability and increased lactic acid.

Just because CO2 is good and necessary to life doesn't mean the more the better.

I imagine that the reason Peat has not said this is not because he doesn't believe it, but because he considers it so blindingly obvious that it doesn't need stating.

I think you nailed it.

I've never seen Peat recommend breathing supplementary CO2.

He has recommended oxygen mixed with certain percentages of CO2, like 7% CO2 or something like that. I think he was talking about a hospital setting though.

I guess people forget that CO2 can be dangerous. I used to work at a winery and we would have to check the CO2 levels in the cold cellar sometimes because of the high levels during harvest season. You don't want to climb up on a tank and then pass out...