WARNING: CO2-related Death

[gbolduev]

Hypercapnia - Infogalactic: the planetary knowledge core
Hypercapnia can induce increased cardiac output, an elevation in arterial blood pressure, and a propensity toward arrhythmias.[4][5] In severe hypercapnia (generally PaCO2 greater than 10 kPa or 75 mmHg), symptomatology progresses to disorientation, panic, hyperventilation, convulsions, unconsciousness, and eventually death.[6][7]


Hypercapnia and hypokalemia in near-death experiences

HYPERCAPNIA will lead to death. It is known by every COPD patient who experience constant panic attacks and NDEs on a regular basis if ventilation stays impaired.

POT smokers experience that also. You know of that paranoia from pot , this is high CO2 thing.

COPD and Panic Attacks

read the comment section on this. For those who can't accept that high CO2 will cause a panic attack.


Jim Ragsdale
My wife has Stage IV Copd with an FEV1 of 16%. She has been having horrible numbers of full blown panic attacks. The psychiatrist has her on 2 anti depressants and increasing Ativan with very little success. An exacerbation stopped her first psychologist appointment to use cognitive behavior therapy.
During the recovery phase after the initial day of the exacerbation, she was given a bipap overnight treatment while in the midst of a major panic attack. Within about 30 seconds the panic attack not only subsided, it ended completely.

I have researched this phenomenon and while I find lots of evidence of increased CO2 levels causing increased acidosis of her blood and lots of studies showing increased acidosis causing panic attacks in both healthy people (add 5% CO2 to their air supply) as well in COPD patients.


As I stated in some CO2 threads. Resp alklaosis or resp acidsosis will lead to its own imbalances. and some people need to lower their CO2 levels, since they hypoventilate and some people have to increase CO2 since they hyperventilate.

There is no one single case of people for whom CO2 is great. Kyphosis scoliosis person should never drink CO2 water or take CO2 and increase metabolism while staying idle sitting at home. NEver should eat much sugar. Kyphosis scoliosis person needs to eat once a day at night. And swim swim and swim hyperventilating daily. Otherwise that person will have full blown panic attacks since his bicarbonate levels will be so so high to compensate this very high base level of CO2. and this CO2 will fluctuate greately within 10%, this will cause moments of severe alkalosis. For which people say breath in a bag to get rid of panic attack. This is where it all came from. That is why people think CO2 and bag breathing is against panic attacks.

But the actual disorder is from very high base level of CO2 which causes very high bicarbonate compensation. LIke CO2 could be in 70s in blood and bicarbonate could be in 45-50s. Then in the moments of high stress this person ventilates properly all of a sudden and boom you get CO2 to 45-50 , but bicarbonate will take 3 days to adjust ( kidneys are slow). And you get severe alkalosis. Which can cause seizures since ionized calcium goes way down.

This is similar to posthypercapnic alkalosis which caused many deaths until people learnt how to control it

This is why when you sit at home for a long time and eat, and then if you decide to come out outside on the street you have panic attacks or anxiety. This i s very often with programmers, they can sit at home for days programming code. They hypoventilate all this time and eat sugar. then they go outside and shake like crazy for 3-5 days, until their body adjusts bicarbonate levels.

 

[yerrag]

Hypercapnia and hypokalemia in near-death experiences

I read this and it doesn't say anything in support of your contention that CO2 is bad at all. In fact, it says good things about CO2. Do you have a different link in mind?

Klemenc-Ketis and colleagues' conclusion that hypercapnia plays a role in provoking NDEs is one possible interpretation of the correlation they found. It is also plausible that hypercapnia is simply an indicator of another factor that may be linked causally to NDE reports. For example, the authors noted that hypercapnia indicates better cardiac output and perfusion pressure, which would reduce the amnesia that is usually seen in cardiac arrest, so that patients would be more likely to remember what happened during the arrest. The association between NDEs and hypercapnia may thus indicate simply that patients who are able to recall more of their cardiac arrest also report more NDEs.

Bruce Greyson proposes an alternative explanation for the results of our study [1], which can also be plausible. Namely, higher levels of the partial pressure of end-tidal carbon dioxide (petCO2) are also indicators of better cardiac output, as discussed in our article [1] and confirmed in our previous studies [5]. Higher incidence of reported NDEs in patients with hypercapnia might therefore indicate simply better memory of the actual NDE event, but this should be confirmed with further studies.

A study about the effects of meditation on respiration and temporal lobes indicated that higher partial pressure of carbon dioxide (pCO2), which is a result of special breathing tech niques during meditation, might have been important in provoking cognitive and emotional changes [6]. Also, higher levels of pCO2presumably have an excitatory effect on the limbic system, which might result in mystical (NDE-like) experiences [6]. The possible connection between the limbic system and NDE-like experiences has already been reported [7].

Higher petCO2 and pCO2, besides better cardiac output, might therefore indicate also a possible connection between carbon dioxide and the incidence of NDEs. Since patients with asphyxia cardiac arrest were found to have higher petCO2 than patients with primary cardiac arrest [8], the patients with asphyxia cardiac arrest might also have higher incidence of NDEs - which, if confirmed, might help to clarify the role of carbon dioxide in NDEs. This theory should be further investigated in larger and multicentre studies, but in the light of patient-oriented care it is important to take into account the existence of NDEs in cardiac arrest patients and to develop protocols of care for such patients.

 

[yerrag]

COPD and Panic Attacks

read the comment section on this. For those who can't accept that high CO2 will cause a panic attack.


Jim Ragsdale
My wife has Stage IV Copd with an FEV1 of 16%. She has been having horrible numbers of full blown panic attacks. The psychiatrist has her on 2 anti depressants and increasing Ativan with very little success. An exacerbation stopped her first psychologist appointment to use cognitive behavior therapy.
During the recovery phase after the initial day of the exacerbation, she was given a bipap overnight treatment while in the midst of a major panic attack. Within about 30 seconds the panic attack not only subsided, it ended completely.

I have researched this phenomenon and while I find lots of evidence of increased CO2 levels causing increased acidosis of her blood and lots of studies showing increased acidosis causing panic attacks in both healthy people (add 5% CO2 to their air supply) as well in COPD patients.

I didn't find the comment section statement by Jim Ragsdale to hold much credibility. He is expressing his own analysis of the situation, not speaking as an authority at all.

 

[jitsmonkey]

everything has an LD and a point of diminishing returns. To imply or state that the mild elevations of co2 via bag breathing or better health or whatever is silly and alarmist. Of course someone with COPD has too much this isn't a co2 problem its a life threatening condition. Stick to apples/apples.

 

[gbolduev]

I read this and it doesn't say anything in support of your contention that CO2 is bad at all. In fact, it says good things about CO2. Do you have a different link in mind?

Klemenc-Ketis and colleagues' conclusion that hypercapnia plays a role in provoking NDEs is one possible interpretation of the correlation they found. It is also plausible that hypercapnia is simply an indicator of another factor that may be linked causally to NDE reports. For example, the authors noted that hypercapnia indicates better cardiac output and perfusion pressure, which would reduce the amnesia that is usually seen in cardiac arrest, so that patients would be more likely to remember what happened during the arrest. The association between NDEs and hypercapnia may thus indicate simply that patients who are able to recall more of their cardiac arrest also report more NDEs.

Bruce Greyson proposes an alternative explanation for the results of our study [1], which can also be plausible. Namely, higher levels of the partial pressure of end-tidal carbon dioxide (petCO2) are also indicators of better cardiac output, as discussed in our article [1] and confirmed in our previous studies [5]. Higher incidence of reported NDEs in patients with hypercapnia might therefore indicate simply better memory of the actual NDE event, but this should be confirmed with further studies.

A study about the effects of meditation on respiration and temporal lobes indicated that higher partial pressure of carbon dioxide (pCO2), which is a result of special breathing tech niques during meditation, might have been important in provoking cognitive and emotional changes [6]. Also, higher levels of pCO2presumably have an excitatory effect on the limbic system, which might result in mystical (NDE-like) experiences [6]. The possible connection between the limbic system and NDE-like experiences has already been reported [7].

Higher petCO2 and pCO2, besides better cardiac output, might therefore indicate also a possible connection between carbon dioxide and the incidence of NDEs. Since patients with asphyxia cardiac arrest were found to have higher petCO2 than patients with primary cardiac arrest [8], the patients with asphyxia cardiac arrest might also have higher incidence of NDEs - which, if confirmed, might help to clarify the role of carbon dioxide in NDEs. This theory should be further investigated in larger and multicentre studies, but in the light of patient-oriented care it is important to take into account the existence of NDEs in cardiac arrest patients and to develop protocols of care for such patients.

You guys only see what you want to see. LOL

A study about the effects of meditation on respiration and temporal lobes indicated that higher partial pressure of carbon dioxide (pCO2), which is a result of special breathing tech niques during meditation, might have been important in provoking cognitive and emotional changes [6]. Also, higher levels of pCO2presumably have an excitatory effect on the limbic system, which might result in mystical (NDE-like) experiences


This is why posted it. Not because hypercapnia increases cardiac output which is understandable since the sympathetic nervous system is activitated to a full extent.

 

[yerrag]

You guys only see what you want to see. LOL

A study about the effects of meditation on respiration and temporal lobes indicated that higher partial pressure of carbon dioxide (pCO2), which is a result of special breathing tech niques during meditation, might have been important in provoking cognitive and emotional changes [6]. Also, higher levels of pCO2presumably have an excitatory effect on the limbic system, which might result in mystical (NDE-like) experiences


This is why posted it. Not because hypercapnia increases cardiac output which is understandable since the sympathetic nervous system is activitated to a full extent.

Oh, did I omit anything? Sorry GB, I'm not seeing what I don't want to see. What are you trying to show me? Forgive me, as I seem to be in a wavelength far apart from yours.

 

[gbolduev]

I didn't find the comment section statement by Jim Ragsdale to hold much credibility. He is expressing his own analysis of the situation, not speaking as an authority at all.

Read my thread and comments of people who work in respirology. MattyB posted very good posts about it. he sees tests daily

This is not about some JIM ragsdale. This is all known info which is already well expected.

Not going to argue with you anymore. Denial is a huge problem here. I worked with people very sick people, I saw the VGBs and ABGS daily. MattyB also works in this field. same results. And this forum members sit here and spin studies . that is just ridiculous.

 

[yerrag]

Read my thread and comments of people who work in respirology. MattyB posted very good posts about it. he sees tests daily

This is not about some JIM ragsdale. This is all known info which is already well expected.

Not going to argue with you anymore. Denial is a huge problem here. I worked with people very sick people, I saw the VGBs and ABGS daily. MattyB also works in this field. same results. And this forum members sit here and spin studies . that is just ridiculous.

You just had to paint me as a denier. My point is valid. Your link isn't. Doesn't really bolster your argument. I gave you the chance to prove your point. And you had to brand me. Gee, thanks.

 

[yerrag]

There is no one single case of people for whom CO2 is great.

No proof. Just a categorical statement. Chutzpah.

But the actual disorder is from very high base level of CO2 which causes very high bicarbonate compensation. LIke CO2 could be in 70s in blood and bicarbonate could be in 45-50s. Then in the moments of high stress this person ventilates properly all of a sudden and boom you get CO2 to 45-50 , but bicarbonate will take 3 days to adjust ( kidneys are slow). And you get severe alkalosis. Which can cause seizures since ionized calcium goes way down.

Aren't you giving extreme examples here? When does pCO2 go to 70s where range is just 35-45? When does venous blood bicarbonate get to be 45-50 when range is just 22-28 mEq/L? Is jumping dangerous from a high rise? You bet. Can I still jump? Yes, but ...

 

[gbolduev]

You just had to paint me as a denier. My point is valid. Your link isn't. Doesn't really bolster your argument. I gave you the chance to prove your point. And you had to brand me. Gee, thanks.

No, of course not. Think about what he is saying. Rate of living theorists would promote that slow oxidizers live the longest since their metabolism is the slowest. He is saying that balance is what matters, and that is most important. Antioxidative systems need to be balanced with metabolism. High metabolism = high ROS = most people can't produce enough SOD/glutathione/thioredoxin/peroxiredoxin to control ROS. Low metabolism = low ROS, but low metabolism means low functioning, low virility, CO2 retention, fatigue, other imbalances - can't fight infections, tired, etc. The best place is to be in the middle, and to kick up your metabolism acutely when necessary (when life requires the energy).

Anyway, I have a lot of thoughts related to gbolduev's posts. I think in time I will go over some of them. I have had many similar experiences that confirm what he is saying is true. I am reading through his post history right now to get a better idea of where he stands but right now all I can say is he is really on the right track. I don't know all about the 12 types ideas he's talking about, but overall, his biochemistry and physiology is on track. You can tell he's read real textbooks written by experts. Stuff that everyone knows in medicine but is easy to miss if all you do is read studies.

I work in respirology/sleep medicine, and can 100% confirm what he is saying about most people's problem being too much CO2 retention in aging. I have seen hundreds of oximetry readouts and blood gases. It is so well known and easy to see in my field. You literally see a linear trend in age and CO2 retention. Young people have high oxygen saturation, low-moderate CO2. Old people have low sats, high CO2. Most sick people have high CO2. That's why so many people are on supplemental oxygen. Treatments like CPAP work, and they raise O2 sats, help ventilate CO2. Very very rare in respirology that you see people with low CO2 and high oxygen. Those people don't usually get sick, or rather, most people simply don't develop those problems.

I have done much better myself going back to less carb/sugar intake, getting more calories from fat, reducing copper, and taking more zinc. With high carb/sugar my body has more energy than I know what to do with, I often find myself breathing too much for the circumstances, getting jittery, and desperately needing to exercise even if my body isn't really recovered from the last session. I can only eat high carb when I need to burn a crap ton of energy, like when working physically all day or doing a very hard mental work (like the MCAT). Before I found Peat I was healthy. Fasted often, exercised lots, and ate carbs according to need. After Peat, I got worse, developed urticaria, GI problems, etc. Now that I've gone back to previous patterns and listened to my body I'm doing much better.


this is post from MattyB, I got exactly the same results, and I saw 100s of ABG and VBGs and dealt with it directly.

I won't disturb this thread again. This info is for you to think about. I am not going to argue about it with you. I saw it with my own eyes.

 

[gbolduev]

No proof. Just a categorical statement. Chutzpah.

Aren't you giving extreme examples here? When does pCO2 go to 70s where range is just 35-45? When does venous blood bicarbonate get to be 45-50 when range is just 22-28 mEq/L? Is jumping dangerous from a high rise? You bet. Can I still jump? Yes, but ...

Extreme examples. Oh now. these are no extreme these are usual. this is just an example. same levels could be much lower but with the same outcome. could be CO2 in 50s , bicarbonate 35. Same outcome

In any case, no more time arguing axioms here. read anesthesilogy book , just one with cases and statistics. .
It will help you understand the trend

BYE

 

[Constatine]

I have done much better myself going back to less carb/sugar intake, getting more calories from fat, reducing copper, and taking more zinc. With high carb/sugar my body has more energy than I know what to do with, I often find myself breathing too much for the circumstances, getting jittery, and desperately needing to exercise even if my body isn't really recovered from the last session. I can only eat high carb when I need to burn a crap ton of energy, like when working physically all day or doing a very hard mental work (like the MCAT). Before I found Peat I was healthy. Fasted often, exercised lots, and ate carbs according to need. After Peat, I got worse, developed urticaria, GI problems, etc. Now that I've gone back to previous patterns and listened to my body I'm doing much better.

Makes sense. I think when people follow a diet plan at all they will always end up ruining their health. Context rules everything and the body is fully capable of acknowledging its needs. One should eat according to their hunger ques (cravings). Ignoring such cues can be done during therapeutic sessions, but should not be done long term.

 

[DaveFoster]

Well, that escalated quickly. Just like my CO2 levels after breakfast. Zing!

Makes sense. I think when people follow a diet plan at all they will always end up ruining their health. Context rules everything and the body is fully capable of acknowledging its needs. One should eat according to their hunger ques (cravings). Ignoring such cues can be done during therapeutic sessions, but should not be done long term.

It's also important to note the direction of causality between hormones and cravings. Good thyroid function will cause one to crave salty, starchy foods less, but abstaining from these foods will not promote good thyroid function, and in fact conumption of OJ when the body craves sodium assuredly stresses the body.

 

[Constatine]

Well, that escalated quickly. Just like my CO2 levels after breakfast. Zing!
It's also important to note the direction of causality between hormones and cravings. Good thyroid function will cause one to crave salty, starchy foods less, but abstaining from these foods will not promote good thyroid function, and in fact conumption of OJ when the body craves sodium assuredly stresses the body.

I don't really know what to make of it. The relationship between hormones and cravings seem complex. Would hormone imbalance cause 'false' cravings or are such cravings the body's way of dealing with the cause of the imbalance? When hormones are functioning properly then it would not make sense for the body's cravings to not be optimized. Does a body with good thyroid function crave salt less because more salt would not be optimal (perhaps overstimulated metabolism) or is this negative feedback loop exist as a consequence of something and is thus a challenge to overcome?

 

[Dante]

Does a body with good thyroid function crave salt less because more salt would not be optimal (perhaps overstimulated metabolism) or is this negative feedback loop exist as a consequence of something and is thus a challenge to overcome?

Hyper/Hypothyroidism And Taste

 

[theLaw]

Gotta

Could be. The caffeine news gives me anxiety, though. He did drink diet soda and maybe some harmful additives in the energy drinks like L-carnitine.

@haidut What do you think about these energy drink-related deaths?

Considering how many teens drink that same combo daily, it's hard to believe that the caffeine was to blame.

Caffeine/food additives............vs...........the daily stress of high school. I'll take the nasty food additives any day.

 

[InChristAlone]

I think the best thing to come about because of @gbolduev is the CO2 stuff. Most people have no idea how to gauge that. And it explains why I did horribly on coffee. Anything that made me blow out too much CO2 would give me awful panic attacks. It had nothing to do with sugar. I was eating loads of pure sugar. Sure my BG would sometimes drop a bit low but nothing to where it would cause hypoglycemia. The usual explanation here was my liver sucked I couldn't store enough sugar. No it was probably some sort of alkalosis problem. I also was prone to shortness of breath and when I got into buteyko I would try the exercises and one time I was too focused on my breathing and caused a massive panic attack. Now the way to prevent that is just to allow my body to breathe normally. Also increasing my activity slowly seems to have cured it. I am really interested in this kind of stuff because of how it effected for me for yrs. Caffeine does seem to simulate exercise.

 

[DaveFoster]

I don't really know what to make of it. The relationship between hormones and cravings seem complex. Would hormone imbalance cause 'false' cravings or are such cravings the body's way of dealing with the cause of the imbalance? When hormones are functioning properly then it would not make sense for the body's cravings to not be optimized. Does a body with good thyroid function crave salt less because more salt would not be optimal (perhaps overstimulated metabolism) or is this negative feedback loop exist as a consequence of something and is thus a challenge to overcome?

Under the influence of thyroid hormone, the cell retains a greater proportion of magnesium and sodium, and it preferentially excretes potassium and calcium. I've certainly experienced "milk cravings," which could be protein, lactose, calcium, or sodium cravings. In Mind and Tissue, Dr. Peat talks about how the orienting reflex involves itself in satiety, where the organism pursues and integrates a food into his structure and thereby facilitates a certain period of growth that's needed based on the current context.

Under the harmful effects of prolactin in hypothyroidism, hypo-osmolar conditions in the cell necessitates a craving for starch (devoid of water content) and salt (both to replace that lost through insufficient carbon dioxide production and to shift the cell toward a hyper-osmolar state.)

 

[haidut]

Definitely, I'm uncomfortable posting vague info from a single source. I was specifically told it was a death due to CO2 tank use though.

Some people may get seizures from too much CO2 elevation in the brain. If that seizure affects the brain stem, a person can easily die. But it is only applicable for people who breath so much CO2 they faint.

 

[Such_Saturation]

We even had people sleeping with masks strapped on LOL. Bad stuff is bound to happen.