Testosterone Protocol

[Koveras]

..

 

[dookie]

do NOT use pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitors

Why not? Maybe they would be an easy way to achieve high testosterone and low estrogen.

Messing around with DHEA and Pregnenolone and high doses of fat soluble vitamins also seems risky, especially when you start to combine too many supplements

 

[Kasper]

Egg yolks for the cholesterol?
Stress reduction so that testosterone is not converted to estrogen?
Red light? Sunshine? Weight lifting maybe?

 

[Koveras]

Egg yolks for the cholesterol?
Stress reduction so that testosterone is not converted to estrogen?
Red light? Sunshine? Weight lifting maybe?

Good suggestions

 

[Koveras]

Why not? Maybe they would be an easy way to achieve high testosterone and low estrogen.

Messing around with DHEA and Pregnenolone and high doses of fat soluble vitamins also seems risky, especially when you start to combine too many supplements

True, care always needs to be taken. This is probably not something anyone should try long term, - as Haidut mentioned he did something similar short term as an experiment. I think the ideas are just there are people can maybe see which aspects of it would be appropriate for their physiology, but I wanted to try to present a more complete picture.

The reason I do not think pharmaceutical aromatase inhibitors are a good idea is because raised testosterone is really just a surrogate marker. Most of us wish to raise testosterone because of the belief that it is related to the qualities of a higher libido, and a healthy, leaner, and more muscular physique. While aromatase inhibiting drugs raise testosterone and lower estrogen, they also often seem to decrease libido, and cause excess fat storage. This could simply related to the extent of inhibition however, so for some, there may be some specific drugs, at some dose, and some frequency, that produce the desired effects.

 

[dookie]

What about using actual testosterone or DHT gel or pills?

 

[Koveras]

What about using actual testosterone or DHT gel or pills?

Believe for many they wish to support, enhance, or otherwise maintain their fertility as well. Exogenous testosterone or DHT or analogues would tend to strongly suppress the natural HPTA.

 

[supernature]

....
Peat has said that testosterone (T) is almost as dangerous as estrogen, and the studies agree on it. Competitive, long term athletes like soccer players, basketball players, NFL players, etc have abnormally high rates of ALS and the latest research has tied it to abnormal testosterone metabolism (I think it was the fluctuations between very high and very low seen in athletes due to sporting events).....

...Here is the thread on pregnenolone and aromatase.

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3596

The study from the thread above confirms once again Peat's views - testosterone is maybe just as dangerous as estrogen - i.e. it stimulated aromatase activity so high testosterone stimulates its own conversion into estrogen. Ask any bodybuilder and they will confirm this....

... Most of us wish to raise testosterone because of the belief that it is related to the qualities of a higher libido, and a healthy, leaner, and more muscular physique.

Isnt it the leaner body composition a characteristic of DHEA, what is actually considered healthy Testosterone levels?

 

[Koveras]

Isnt it the leaner body composition a characteristic of DHEA, what is actually considered healthy Testosterone levels?

Perhaps Haidut can chime in as I believe he has a said a testosterone >24 nmol/L and a prolactin <5 ug/L is ideal for libido.

I'm sure there is an upper limit, within the normal physiological range, of how much testosterone is optimal for health.

In regards to DHEA and leanness, I'm not sure what the relationship is with body fatness, but there is a strong (inverse) relationship between testosterone (and DHT) and body fat.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men | Endocrinology and Metabolism
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2007-0252

Via:

Intermittent Thoughts on Building Muscle: Quantifying "The Big T" - Do Testosterone Increases Within the Physiological Range Really Matter? And How Much is too Much? - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone
SuppVersity - Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone
Intermittent Thoughts: Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) - Bigger, Stronger, Faster or just Balder, Fatter and Unhealthier? - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

 

[michael94]

500k vitamin A in a day? Do people do that?

good luck with ur progress

 

[superhuman]

sodium bicarbonate 4 tsp a day for sodium and to raise co2
bag breathing
cascara to reduce endotoxin and clean bowels and for reducing cortisol

 

[aarfai]

Question: Is Vitamin K 15mg 3x/day as menaquinone what Haidut recommends for increase test?

 

[TheHound]

seems good but I have trouble gaining weight if I'm not using cyproheptadine

 

[Koveras]

Question: Is Vitamin K 15mg 3x/day as menaquinone what Haidut recommends for increase test?

Raising the T as high as possible was just an experiment I did for a month. The diet was my normal high-protein, high-sugar diet, and also I noticed that a lot of the foods I eat had quite a bit of cholesterol so that certainly helped with providing the raw materials.
The supplements were: 15g of taurine a day in divided doses; 6g-7g of aspirin in divided doses; 2,500mg of mixed tocopherols; 45mg of vitamin K2 (menatetrenone); 30mg of zinc; 10mg of B6; 1,500mg of thiamine; BCAA ( don't remember exact dosage); tyrosine (1,500mg with each BCAA dosage); caffeine (200m-400mg), niacinamide (sometimes up to 8g a day).
Obviously this is not a healthy schedule, and I am emphasizing again that it was done purely as en experiment. I don't want this forum to be flooded by bodybuilders and other athletes obsessed with "raising T". If you read Peat carefully you will see that he is not a very big fan of testosterone. In fact, he thinks it has been implicated in diseases such as ALS.
Anyways, just responding to the question.

 

[Koveras]

500k vitamin A in a day? Do people do that?

good luck with ur progress

This is a human study and as you can see it used up to 500,000 IU vitamin A daily for months for acne treatment without any serious signs of toxicity. Most doctors will warn you that vitamin A will cause liver issues, but as you can see this was not the case here.

Oral vitamin A in acne vulgaris. Preliminary report. - PubMed - NCBI

"...Oral vitamin A (retinol) is generally not considered useful in the treatment of acne vulgaris. We conducted a study which showed that retinol was indeed ineffective at the usual doses of 50,000 to 100,000 IU daily. Retinol was highly efficacious in doses of 300,000 units for women and 400,000 to 500,000 units for men, toxicity was slight and limited mainly to skin (xerosis) and mucous membranes (cheilitis). The danger of hypervitaminosis A in this dosage range has been exaggerated. Retinol is a valuable drug for treating stubborn, severely inflammatory acne vulgaris. It is administered until the disease is brought under control, usually within three to four months. Then the dosage is progressively reduced relying on conventional drugs to keep the disease in abeyance."

 

[Zachs]

Almost all that is found in food. Personally supplements never did anything good and really, how long would you want to take and be dependent of that expensive stack.

Also, fast estrogen clearance and strong blood flow have a lot to do with high test and libido. Some things to consider.

 

[Koveras]

Almost all that is found in food. Personally supplements never did anything good and really, how long would you want to take and be dependent of that expensive stack.

Also, fast estrogen clearance and strong blood flow have a lot to do with high test and libido. Some things to consider.

Good points - and a good diet is most likely important above all. Likely diet is represented elsewhere a lot here, so I think it is good to present alternative/additive options. Most would probably do quite well with food only though.

By strong blood flow do you suggest strategies that optimize CO2 production?

 

[Zachs]

Co2, very important. Also reducing vascular inflammation.

Estrogen is probably the biggest issue people have when they think they have low t.

 

[michael94]

Co2, very important. Also reducing vascular inflammation.

Estrogen is probably the biggest issue people have when they think they have low t.

Excess copper/ deficient in zinc is one of the most common causes of excess estrogen. That was the case for me

 

[Koveras]

Excess copper/ deficient in zinc is one of the most common causes of excess estrogen. That was the case for me

I've heard of estrogen or IUDs causing excess copper but not the reverse relationship - could you elaborate?