Progesterone In Men

[haidut]

Mmm, that is just one study and it is on schizophrenics who were taking other medications at the same time, not people with adrenal issues.

The study itself refers to 2 other studies that are indeed in szchiphrenic people. But the study providing the quote is on healthy people and used 400mg pregnenolone. Here are the results.

"...At three hours post-administration, pregnenolone resulted in threefold elevations in serum levels of pregnenolone (paired t(15)=10.89, p<0.001), and increased allopregnanolone sevenfold (paired t(15)=13.59, p<0.001). Pregnenolone administration also increased levels of pregnanolone (allopregnanolone’s 5β-stereoisomer) [t(29)=3.17, p=.004] by approximately 60% and reduced DHEAS levels [t(29)=3.29, p=.003] by approximately 5%. Baseline and endpoint levels of pregnenolone, allopregnanolone, and pregnanolone can be found in Table 2. Compared to placebo, pregnenolone did not differentially alter serum cortisol or DHEA levels at three-hours post-administration (in all cases p>0.3)."

So, once again, no increases in cortisol or DHEA. I am more concerned about the lack of change in DHEA, since this study as well the others showed virtually no change in DHEA and some decrease in DHEA-S. So, Peat's writing that pregnenolone converts into DHEA/DHEAS may not be accurate and supplementation with DHEA may be warranted. He himself has said that he takes 3-4 mg DHEA daily, so maybe he realized the lack of conversion into DHEA as well.

 

[YuraCZ]

I want to ask how much progesterone healthy 30 years old man naturally produces?

 

[marsaday]

Results are in !!!!

I have my latest saliva test results for cortisol and dhea. These were taken while i have been using approx 6mg of progesterone per day (progestE)

1) The results are very similar to my results taken in Jan this year, but not on progesterone.

2) DHEA is still low, but has come up a little on the first result.

3) Cortisol is the same type of curve (descending), and cortisol is at the top of the range for the last 3 results (afternoon is a touch over) and both morning samples are over range.

4) These test results have been done in an american lab as genova are now shipping all results to the USA to be analysed. It is a shame because i am not able to compare exactly like for like, but generally the picture is the same.

5) So this means progesterone has had no effect on dhea or cortisol.

These are the actual results:

Sample 1 = 47.18 (7.45-32.56)

2 = 9.93 (2.76 - 11.31)

3 = 7.73 (1.38 - 7.45)

4 = 3 (0.83-3.86)

DHEA am = 0.49 (0.25-2.22)

pm = 0.15 (0.25-2.22)

I think i am going to try using 5mcg dhea tablets to see if i can up the dhea. Is there an optimum time to take the dhe,a eg at bedtime.

 

[haidut]

Results are in !!!!

I have my latest saliva test results for cortisol and dhea. These were taken while i have been using approx 6mg of progesterone per day (progestE)

1) The results are very similar to my results taken in Jan this year, but not on progesterone.

2) DHEA is still low, but has come up a little on the first result.

3) Cortisol is the same type of curve (descending), and cortisol is at the top of the range for the last 3 results (afternoon is a touch over) and both morning samples are over range.

4) These test results have been done in an american lab as genova are now shipping all results to the USA to be analysed. It is a shame because i am not able to compare exactly like for like, but generally the picture is the same.

5) So this means progesterone has had no effect on dhea or cortisol.

These are the actual results:

Sample 1 = 47.18 (7.45-32.56)

2 = 9.93 (2.76 - 11.31)

3 = 7.73 (1.38 - 7.45)

4 = 3 (0.83-3.86)

DHEA am = 0.49 (0.25-2.22)

pm = 0.15 (0.25-2.22)

I think i am going to try using 5mcg dhea tablets to see if i can up the dhea. Is there an optimum time to take the dhe,a eg at bedtime.

Interesting, so at least we know that progesterone did NOT increase cortisol like so many people on this forum claim without having done blood tests. If you have the time and energy to do another test, I would be super interested in seeing results from 100mg oral pregnenolone daily for a month.
As far as DHEA, I think optimal doses based on extrapolation from animal studies and comparing with human studies show that DHEA is best taken in doses of <= 15mg daily, split in 2-3 doses of no more than 5mg each. I personally always take 5mg DHEA before bed since it protects form cortisol at night when the stress hormones tends to run unopposed. Combined with 5mg B6 (preferably P5P) to keep adrenalin at bay you get a nice combo for battling stress. Btw, vitamin B6 enhances 5-AR so it will boost the conversion of DHEA into DHT. In addition, B6 also blocks the cortisol, and estrogen receptors so the anti-stress effects of DHEA and B6 really amplify each other nicely.

 

[marsaday]

At the moment i am running along quite well, so don't really want to interfere with the pregnenalone.

I will see how 5mcg dhea at bedtime works out.

Do you actually want more conversion to DHT ? I thought this was the bad testosterone hormone which makes you bald and causes prostate problems. I thought basic testosterone is the one you want to boost ?

 

[haidut]

At the moment i am running along quite well, so don't really want to interfere with the pregnenalone.

I will see how 5mcg dhea at bedtime works out.

Do you actually want more conversion to DHT ? I thought this was the bad testosterone hormone which makes you bald and causes prostate problems. I thought basic testosterone is the one you want to boost ?

Lol, the DHT theory behind prostate and baldness is about as solid as a weather forecast for the next month. There is a study, which I posted recently showing direct injections of testosterone and DHT into the prostate induce remission even in terminal prostate cancer.
Peat has said that testosterone is almost as dangerous as estrogen. I guess this is not very surprising given that testosterone aromatizes into estrogen quite easily when one is under stress. Testosterone is also implicated in conditions like ALS and myasthenia gravis.
DHT is a much stable and much more androgenic steroid than testosterone and and mainstream science is slowly converging on the fact that whatever benefits exercise has are due to increased DHT production. The same effects can be achieved with <15mg DHEA daily taken in divided doses of no more than 5mg each. I posted studies on that too.
When small amounts of DHEA are taken is it preferentially metabolized into DHT in peripheral tissues. Blood tests won't show an increase in DHT levels but tissues levels do increase when meassured with biopsy in rats.
I guess with the risk of oversimplifying the concept, what is optimal for health is high progesterone and high DHT levels in peripheral tissues. This will ensure both anabolic state and keep estrogen at bay through low aromitization and estrogen antagonism by progesterone.

 

[Vinero]

Why not directly take DHT?

 

[haidut]

Why not directly take DHT?

I guess it would be fine, if you can find oral forms or topical. Just like DHEA you probably don't want to take more than a few milligrams due to the fact the DHT will suppress HPA axis and things like LH, FSH, and hCG. That's the beauty of pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA - you don't suppress endogenous production of steroids by taking these substances, and often you even increase endogenous production. Both pregnenolone and DHEA powerfully lower cholesterol by forcing it to metabolize into steroids. That is the only safe approach to lowering cholesterol. Taking thyroid does the same.

 

[Zachs]

I have read many different times that continued supplementation of dhea, say over two weeks, resulted in higher estrogen levels. Do you not believe this to be the case, Haidut? Do you cycle dhea?

 

[haidut]

I have read many different times that continued supplementation of dhea, say over two weeks, resulted in higher estrogen levels. Do you not believe this to be the case, Haidut? Do you cycle dhea?

At levels of <15mg daily DHEA for the last 3 months has not moved my estrogen levels by a single digit. Then of course, that means nothing for estrogen in tissue, but my prolactin went down as well and it usually means estrogen is also going down. When taken in doses of no more than 5mg per serving and no more than 15mg total daily, DHEA metabolizes mostly into DHT, and DHT does not aromatize into estrogen. The people seeing increases in estrogen probably used a "low" dose of at least 25mg daily and usually taken at once. At that level the pathways get saturated and DHEA does end up elevating estrogen. In low doses DHEA is almost indistinguishable from DHT in terms of direct effect on tissues and also due to being converted mostly into DHT anyways. I posted a study showing both hormones activated pretty much the same genes and DHEA was comparably anabolic to DHT. Again, in low doses ONLY. So, taking 5mg DHEA is probably equivalent to taking 2mg-3mg DHT. However, taking 25mg DHEA is nowhere close to taking 25mg DHT and in fact will end up being estrogenic both as raising plasma estrogen and metabolizing into estrogen peripherally.

 

[Vinero]

How do you know when estrogen is increased from DHEA supplementation? I don't have acces to blood tests or anything. I only have seen huge benefits from DHEA 25 mg. It promotes a sense of well-being I find and more energy. I also laugh much more at comedy series and joke around much more. One odd side effect is that I get super-human drinking powers. Drank a bottle of whiskey with a friend and while he was drunk I barely felt intoxicated. So what symptoms do you get when estrogen increases?

 

[Zachs]

Vinero, I said I have read of many testimonials and warnings of estrogen increasing if taken longer then 2 weeks. I have never tried it myself. But as Haidut mentioned, I think most people take a higher dose.

How long have you taken 25mg consecutively?

 

[haidut]

How do you know when estrogen is increased from DHEA supplementation? I don't have acces to blood tests or anything. I only have seen huge benefits from DHEA 25 mg. It promotes a sense of well-being I find and more energy. I also laugh much more at comedy series and joke around much more. One odd side effect is that I get super-human drinking powers. Drank a bottle of whiskey with a friend and while he was drunk I barely felt intoxicated. So what symptoms do you get when estrogen increases?

Well, I am glad you feel well on it
Symptoms of high estrogen can be tricky to gauge but usually include water retention, frequent but small urination, anger, aggression, manic feelings, trouble falling asleep, etc. Try taking some progesterone or pregnenolone with DHEA, if it calms you down then your estrogen is probably high. Estrogen has effects on the brain almost identical to cocaine, and just going by feeling can be misleading since cocaine makes people feel like have limitless energy but in reality they are running on stress.
The bottom line is that the steroids Ray recommends are most effective when used in doses that do not saturate the pathways. One possible exception is pregnenolone since you take it with the idea of saturating the pathways and converting it into other steroids, mostly progesterone and allopregnanolone. In low doses (below 5-AR saturation) DHEA converts mainly into androstenediol, which is highly androgenic and is very difficult to aromatize. From there it converts into DHT in tissues as needed. However, if you take high enough dose of DHEA (more than 10mg at once) it will saturate the 5-AR pathway and will be diverted to androstenedione. Androstenedione, for all the hype it got, is actually quite estrogenic itself and also very easily converts into estrogen through aromatase. It also stimulates aromatase directly, which explains why most human studies with androstenedione show sporadic and small increase in testosterone but invariable and significant increase in estradiol.
DHT is one of the few steroids that you can safely increase by small additive doses of DHEA and it won't affect the other steroids, unless you saturate the 5-AR pathway.
Like I said, the steroidal profile of young males is high progesterone, high DHT and moderate testosterone. You can think of testosterone as the body's reservoir for estrogen. It really is not that good of a male hormone not to mention it is just as "male" hormone as estrogen is "female". Both hormones are equally important to both females and males and both are (almost) equally dangerous.

 

[yoshiesque]

How about Danny Roddy's take on this topic?

He says progesterone can help with hair loss and that finesteride/dutesteride (propecia/proscar/avodart) only work because they are chemically similar to progesterone.

HOWEVER, rather than taking progesterone, you can just take very small amounts of T3. T3 instantly converts cholesterol to progesterone. And you can rely on the bodies ability to convert cholesterol to progesterone, in order to obtain adequate amounts of progesterone.

Thoughts? It sounds like a better alternative to taking progesterone on your own.

 

[Vinero]

I'm still confused about the testosterone. When studies say that zinc, magnesium, taurine etc. have a testosterone increasing effect, does this automatically mean DHT increases as well? And Ray says decreasing serotonin in the brain increases testosterone in male animals. Do you think this means more testosterone available so more gets converted to DHT? Cool info about the Androstenediol and Androstenedione, I didn't even know those hormones existed! I don't take 25 mg pills of DHEA everyday by the way. Just once a week like what Ray recommends for pregnenolone 300 mg once a week.

 

[haidut]

I'm still confused about the testosterone. When studies say that zinc, magnesium, taurine etc. have a testosterone increasing effect, does this automatically mean DHT increases as well? And Ray says decreasing serotonin in the brain increases testosterone in male animals. Do you think this means more testosterone available so more gets converted to DHT? Cool info about the Androstenediol and Androstenedione, I didn't even know those hormones existed! I don't take 25 mg pills of DHEA everyday by the way. Just once a week like what Ray recommends for pregnenolone 300 mg once a week.

If the pathways are not saturated and there is nothing blocking 5-AR then increasing testosterone should also bump DHT. By how much - I don't know. The substances you mention all work in a different way so hard to say what effect they have on DHT. Zinc is aromatase inhibitor but also 5-AR inhibitor in higher doses. In doses of 60mg or less per day zinc has been shown to increase both T and DHT. Higher doses lower both T and DHT so that's that. Some studies also show zinc lowers prolactin, and that would certainly drive testosterone up if true.
Magnesium stimulates metabolism, is pro-GABA, and an NMDA antagonist. Most NMDA antagonists raise testosterone but the mechanism is not very clear. Taurine is probably the most complex of all, but it has been shown to stimulate cholesterol metabolism in gonads so that may be its primary effect.

 

[Kray]

Haidut, I've read through these 6 pages of posts and would like a brief recap. My husband hasn't been sleeping well for some months (upper 50s in age), partly due to (3-hr) jet lag from business travel 1-2 times/month. Last evening I gave him 1-2 drops Progest-E, and he seemed to sleep better, with fewer waking episodes.

Since I have the Progest-E on hand, would you suggest supplementing with that at the 1-2 drops (roughly 3mg) at night vs. some of the other options covered (pregnenolone, dhea, p5p)? btw- he is balding; would the progest help with that too in your opinion?

Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[haidut]

Haidut, I've read through these 6 pages of posts and would like a brief recap. My husband hasn't been sleeping well for some months (upper 50s in age), partly due to (3-hr) jet lag from business travel 1-2 times/month. Last evening I gave him 1-2 drops Progest-E, and he seemed to sleep better, with fewer waking episodes.

Since I have the Progest-E on hand, would you suggest supplementing with that at the 1-2 drops (roughly 3mg) at night vs. some of the other options covered (pregnenolone, dhea, p5p)? btw- he is balding; would the progest help with that too in your opinion?

Thanks for any suggestions.

I would try 5mg DHEA with the progesterone and watch for effects. If he gets boost in libido and energy you can add 5mg more for up to 15mg daily in divided doses. Never more than 10mg DHEA in single dose.
DHEA in doses of 15mg daily stimulates brain oxidative metabolism more than thyroid (T3).

 

[Kray]

Haidut, thanks. Is your suggestion based on your personal experience and what you've found most helpful and balancing? My husband may suffer from the same adrenal issues as yourself. Doing some more searching under "dhea" on the forum, I found this:

[Ray Peat wrote:
Young people produce about 12 to 15 milligrams of DHEA per day, and that amount decreases by about 2 mg. per day for every decade after the age of 30. This is one of the reasons that young people eat more without getting fat, and tolerate cold weather better: DHEA, like the thyroid hormone, increases our heat production and ability to burn calories. At the age of 50, about 4 mg. of DHEA per day will usually restore the level of DHEA in the blood to a youthful level. It is important to avoid taking more than needed, since some people (especially if they are deficient in progesterone, pregnenolone, or thyroid) can turn the excess into estrogen or testosterone, and large amounts of those sex hormones can disturb the function of the thymus gland and the liver.

People who have taken an excess of DHEA have been found to have abnormally high estrogen levels, and this can cause the liver to enlarge, and the thymus to shrink.

One study has found that the only hormone abnormality in a group of Alzheimers patients' brains was an excess of DHEA. In cell culture, DHEA can cause changes in glial cells resembling those seen in the aging brain. These observations suggest that DHEA should be used with caution. Supplements of pregnenolone and thyroid seem to be the safest way to optimize DHEA production.]

I don't think my husband would go the thyroid route, but could pregnenolone be a better option rather than DHEA, or just the progesterone in small doses? And what about P5P?

 

[Kray]

Haidut, thanks. Is your suggestion based on your personal experience and what you've found most helpful and balancing? My husband may suffer from the same adrenal issues as yourself. Doing some more searching on the forum, I found this:

(DHEA Experiences- Mittir post)
[Ray Peat wrote:
Young people produce about 12 to 15 milligrams of DHEA per day, and that amount decreases by about 2 mg. per day for every decade after the age of 30. This is one of the reasons that young people eat more without getting fat, and tolerate cold weather better: DHEA, like the thyroid hormone, increases our heat production and ability to burn calories. At the age of 50, about 4 mg. of DHEA per day will usually restore the level of DHEA in the blood to a youthful level. It is important to avoid taking more than needed, since some people (especially if they are deficient in progesterone, pregnenolone, or thyroid) can turn the excess into estrogen or testosterone, and large amounts of those sex hormones can disturb the function of the thymus gland and the liver.

People who have taken an excess of DHEA have been found to have abnormally high estrogen levels, and this can cause the liver to enlarge, and the thymus to shrink.

One study has found that the only hormone abnormality in a group of Alzheimers patients' brains was an excess of DHEA. In cell culture, DHEA can cause changes in glial cells resembling those seen in the aging brain. These observations suggest that DHEA should be used with caution. Supplements of pregnenolone and thyroid seem to be the safest way to optimize DHEA production.]

I don't think my husband would go the thyroid route, but could pregnenolone be a better option rather than DHEA, or just the progesterone in small doses?