Progesterone In Men

[John Frusciante]

Hello, I've found very few information on the topic, and the usual things I read were that progesterone should be used in small doses, and pregnenolone is preferable in men, and many other things. But since Peat said pregnenolone hasn't the powerful effects of progesterone, can some males benefit from progesterone if their estrogen are very high? If I take 1 drop of progest-E nothing happens, maybe I need more. Some people benefit from taking more - in the Peat Exchanges on Peatarian, Ray Peat said a person took 1000mg daily (!). What do you think about it? When males should really think about taking it, and eventually in higher doses? What if low testosterone - temporarily - is nothing compared to their symptoms, like helplessness, excitotoxicity, etc. that are really worse?

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

It completely wipes out my libido, and consequently my motivation/drive. I would take it up to the amount that it doesn't effect your libido. But I'm definitely not taking it again. I'm sticking to pregnenolone. I am a 25 year old male.

 

[John Frusciante]

What if libido is the last problem? People with helplessness, excitotoxicity, manic phases, really don't care about libido if something can even provide temporary relief to their symptoms.

 

[Anonymous]

Then i'd say go ahead and do it. But I'd also be taking it with Cytomel if I were you.

 

[John Frusciante]

Yes, i think thyroid can help many things with high doses of progesterone, such as keeping the alertness up and the androgens

 

[HDD]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=227&p=2130&hilit=Progesterone#p2130

peatarian wrote:
So yes: There is a big difference when it comes to using progesterone and yes as a man you should be careful because progesterone lowers testosterone.

Peatarian, can you provide some references or quotes for this statement. I understand that progesterone can antagonize testosterone if either is too high, but I have never seen where it actually lowers it. It is all about the context and I think that progesterone can be extremely helpful for males and they should not be afraid of it.

Some interesting quotes...

"Some hormones which are both progestins and
anti-testosterones seem to work both at the tissue
"receptor" level. and at the pituitary level. Though
progesterone itself will suppress menopausal pituitary
gonadotrophins, and (my observations) reduces excessive
facial hair, it has not been found to have anti-testosterone
effects in men when used in low doses, and in appropriate
doses it can improve sexual functions in some impotent men
who are deficient in progesterone." (Progesterone in Orthomolecular Medicine)

"Progesterone and DHEA are the precursors for the
other more specialized steroid hormones, including cortisol,
aldosterone (sodium-retaining hormone), estrogen, and
testosterone. The formation of these other hormones is
tightly regulated, so that taking the precursor will correct a
deficiency of a specialized hormone, but will not create an
excess. At least in the case of progesterone, an excess tends
to balance or neutralize an excess of the specialized
hormone, so it has been described as having
anti-androgenic, anti-estrogen, anti-aldosterone, and
anti-cortisol functions." (Progesterone in Orthomolecular Medicine)

"He had consumed so much of the progesterone
that I repeatedly told him to be aware that
it could interfere with his sexual function
by blocking the effects of testoeterone. He
stayed alert and sober,and proceeded with
his performances. He took about 30 gram.
of progesterone in vitamin E over the next
several months, and said his sexual
functioning was perfectly normal." (Biological Balance and Additions - Townsend Letter)

"Progesterone is an anti androgen,
and blocks testosterone's effects. When
testosterone is given to newborn or very
young rats, it sets up a male pattern of
hormone development, but if
progesterone is given at the same time,
that doesn't happen. Progesterone
prevents the differentiation away from
the basic female path into the male
specialization. Later in life, a deficiency
of progesterone in a woman can again
lead to masculinization of some features,
such as musculature and facial or body
hair. When progesterone is given to men
in large doses, it blocks various typically
male processes, such as growth of
whiskers. In the brain, it has a
protective function in both sexes." (Aging Ovaries, not the Eggs - Townsend Letter)

 

[answersfound]

I think if you were to combine Aspirin and Vitamin E you could get a similar effect without lowering testosterone.

 

[John Frusciante]

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=227&p=2130&hilit=Progesterone#p2130

peatarian wrote:
So yes: There is a big difference when it comes to using progesterone and yes as a man you should be careful because progesterone lowers testosterone.

Peatarian, can you provide some references or quotes for this statement. I understand that progesterone can antagonize testosterone if either is too high, but I have never seen where it actually lowers it. It is all about the context and I think that progesterone can be extremely helpful for males and they should not be afraid of it.

Some interesting quotes...

"Some hormones which are both progestins and
anti-testosterones seem to work both at the tissue
"receptor" level. and at the pituitary level. Though
progesterone itself will suppress menopausal pituitary
gonadotrophins, and (my observations) reduces excessive
facial hair, it has not been found to have anti-testosterone
effects in men when used in low doses, and in appropriate
doses it can improve sexual functions in some impotent men
who are deficient in progesterone." (Progesterone in Orthomolecular Medicine)

"Progesterone and DHEA are the precursors for the
other more specialized steroid hormones, including cortisol,
aldosterone (sodium-retaining hormone), estrogen, and
testosterone. The formation of these other hormones is
tightly regulated, so that taking the precursor will correct a
deficiency of a specialized hormone, but will not create an
excess. At least in the case of progesterone, an excess tends
to balance or neutralize an excess of the specialized
hormone, so it has been described as having
anti-androgenic, anti-estrogen, anti-aldosterone, and
anti-cortisol functions." (Progesterone in Orthomolecular Medicine)

"He had consumed so much of the progesterone
that I repeatedly told him to be aware that
it could interfere with his sexual function
by blocking the effects of testoeterone. He
stayed alert and sober,and proceeded with
his performances. He took about 30 gram.
of progesterone in vitamin E over the next
several months, and said his sexual
functioning was perfectly normal." (Biological Balance and Additions - Townsend Letter)

"Progesterone is an anti androgen,
and blocks testosterone's effects. When
testosterone is given to newborn or very
young rats, it sets up a male pattern of
hormone development, but if
progesterone is given at the same time,
that doesn't happen. Progesterone
prevents the differentiation away from
the basic female path into the male
specialization. Later in life, a deficiency
of progesterone in a woman can again
lead to masculinization of some features,
such as musculature and facial or body
hair. When progesterone is given to men
in large doses, it blocks various typically
male processes, such as growth of
whiskers. In the brain, it has a
protective function in both sexes." (Aging Ovaries, not the Eggs - Townsend Letter)

Thanks, very helpful. I think sometimes if estrogen is high, the "normal" amount of testosterone isn't enough to shift toward androgen "dominance".

I think if you were to combine Aspirin and Vitamin E you could get a similar effect without lowering testosterone.

Yes, definitely can help. And maybe some thyroid, to increase all the hormones in the cascade as needed.

 

[marsaday]

I have found progesterone to be very helpful for me. I am in week 3 of its use.

I am taking a cream which dispenses 20mcg in a shot, so am trying to take half a shot every 2 days. So hopefully getting 5mcg per day approx.

I have also read many things about progesterone and more males seem to be negative towards it (lowers test etc).

I am due to have a new blood test soon and so will post up what has happened to my testosterone. My last reading was 18nmol/l.

I think it is going to make cortisol in my system. I take thyroid meds and it definitely has helped improve the overall health.

It will be good for other men to keep updating any experiences they have with progesterone on this thread. We are a minority, however.

This website has a fair bit of info on there and Wray the owner seems to think men can take much more than we actually think is good.

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/prog ... z3U1Y0anYB

 

[HDD]

Peatarian's reply further on in the thread I linked above.

I think the relation between testosterone and progesterone was in an article which is no longer online. Lately I have missed a few I read years ago (like the one about HIV). In at least two of the newsletters it was mentioned but since I own them on paper only I cannot search in them and unfortunately do not have the time to re-read them right now.

I have experienced first- and second hand that progesterone is just as potent in lowering testosterone as it is in lowering estrogen. As I wrote earlier I have been using a lot (sometimes a bottle in 3 days) and it took a few months until I noticed that my muscles disappeared. It was always easy for me to build muscles in my arms and legs -- there was hardly anything left after about 4 months of progesterone. Which is not dramatic for me. I am using less now (1 bottle in 2 weeks) and slowly the muscles come back. But it takes effort and time. I also noticed some other changes. Behavioral most of all. I lack ambition which I never did. I avoid confrontation which I never did. I lack motivation which is new, too. Things usually connected to testosterone seem to have gone missing.

A friend of mine (male) had a car accident with brain injury. He has been using progesterone for 4 months. His brain is fine now but his muscles vanished during that time (1 bottle in 1 week) and he had no libido at all.

A 70 year old man was heavily injured during an accident and used 1 bottle of progest-e-complex in 2 weeks. His body healed but his muscles were gone.

A friend of mine (female) is a sports swimmer. She has been using progest-e-complex to get pregnant. Sports will do a lot of harm to a the system and it took a while until the progesterone started to decrease the estrogen. At the same time her hair became thicker and her skin better and her luteal phase longer -- her muscles became less and less. In the end she couldn't swim for more than 20 minutes when before that there was no limit or at least she never experienced it.

There are lots of little examples in between. I contacted Ray Peat several time because of this effect of progesterone. He told me that although he had not written a lot about testosterone he considered it to be nearly as toxic as estrogen. But he doesn't ever recommend progesterone to young men (young meaning: younger than 60 years) because lowering testosterone at younger age could be harmful. Before that two close friends had tried progest-e out of curiosity. They never felt any effect and stopped using it after RPs e-mail.

One told me that he had his blood tested during that time (not for testosterone) and that his blood sugar was extremely high. I have found some studies saying that men with a testosterone deficiency tend to have high blood sugar. There where other problems, too but it's been years since I did the research and don't want to tell you something I am not sure of.

Don't get me wrong: If you are a woman I would recommend using progest-e-complex no matter what. Just try to find a dosage that will allow you to keep your muscles. At least some of them. The lack of muscles in your upper arms and thighs will lead to more fat cells which will produce more estrogen after all.
If you are a young man and have some health issues like burn wounds, head trauma, organ failure --- by all means: Use progesterone for a short time.

But if you are healthy and want to keep or restore the balance of your hormones, use pregnenolone and not progesterone. That's what Ray Peat told me and what I learned to be absolutely true.

 

[marsaday]

There is much confusion about males taking progesterone. I have read the long thread on progesterone (12 pages) and in there is a great quote about males using progesterone and how helpful it is.

I am pretty certain progesterone is very beneficial for males. The important factor is the dose. Too high and it lowers testosterone, but a low dose will increase production. It seems something like 5-10mcg is a good dose per day to take according to Dr J Lee.

Here is an article on sperm and progesterone. This is very apt for me as my sperm production is lower and i have very high FSH signalling.

http://www.aletriscenter.com/progesterone_men.pdf

 

[HDD]

Progesterone in vitamin E, Progest-e, has 3-4 mg of progesterone per drop. Quite a bit more potent than Lee's.

 

[docall18]

I find progesterone great. It makes me unstressed, social and more energetic . I use tiny doses less than 3mg per day, split up. I also take it with 3mg/day 7-keto dhea. Progesterone converts into cortisol for me and the 7keto balances this out.

However it does affect guys libido. If u want to know what being castrated feels like follow the advice of Wray on the site mentioned.
Even at my low dose I have definite libido issues. I don't know whether the progesterone itself or the cortisol it converts to are responsible for the reduced testosterone.

Pregnenolone just jacks up estrogen for me.

 

[Dean]

I've read accounts that progesterone can boost thyroid function. Any males here noticed any such affect? I guess it's a given that the consensus here is that taking it won't work or is a bad idea without also supplementing thyroid; but thought I'd ask if any males out there have used a small dose of progesterone without thyroid supplementation and achieved a positive affect.

 

[docall18]

Progesterone is what cortisol is made from. You need cortisol to allow thyroid hormones to work. So yes progesterone is important for your thyroid.

 

[Dean]

I find progesterone great. It makes me unstressed, social and more energetic . I use tiny doses less than 3mg per day, split up. I also take it with 3mg/day 7-keto dhea. Progesterone converts into cortisol for me and the 7keto balances this out.

However it does affect guys libido. If u want to know what being castrated feels like follow the advice of Wray on the site mentioned.
Even at my low dose I have definite libido issues. I don't know whether the progesterone itself or the cortisol it converts to are responsible for the reduced testosterone.

Pregnenolone just jacks up estrogen for me.

The sociability and increased energy factors would be worth the lost libido (it's virtually no existent as it is for me anyway). Don't care about hair or muscle loss either.

Do you take progest-e? How do you manage to split one drop into separate applications? What is the reasoning for taking DHEA with it? Did you do that from the start or did you find the progesterone alone to be lacking in some way?

 

[marsaday]

I have tried the progest E today and it seems far better than standard prog cream. I have taken 2 drops, so approx 6mcg of progesterone. Before i was using about 10mcg of cream every 2 days. The drops are much easier to use and the dose is more specific.

I am noticing the prog just makes everything work much better. I tried dropping it last week and i really felt bad not taking it.

I get a blood test tomorrow and so will hopefully see what effect the prog will have on testosterone. I haven't noticed any drop off in libido so far.

I also aim to take DHEA and have bought some 5mcg tablets.

The prog definitely helps make my hands warmer and generally more warm overall, so this must be the enhanced thyroid experience. I am taking T4 as have had issues with an underactive thyroid, but there has always been more at play in the background.

 

[docall18]

Yes, i get great results from a prog/7 keto combo. But its a trade off with libido. Strangely enough I have put on a lot of muscle in the gym. Probably because I no longer have huge amounts of adrenaline in my body.

I take source naturals progesterone cream and 7-keto cream. As I said earlier dhea seems to balance some of the negative high cortisol effects that I can get from prog.

Multiple tests found my dhea below range, also but my preg and prog have been low.

For some reason i seem to produce little in the way of adrenal hormones. That leaves me running on adrenaline and feeling stressed, anxious etc.

 

[tara]

I've read accounts that progesterone can boost thyroid function. Any males here noticed any such affect? I guess it's a given that the consensus here is that taking it won't work or is a bad idea without also supplementing thyroid; but thought I'd ask if any males out there have used a small dose of progesterone without thyroid supplementation and achieved a positive affect.

IIRC from Peat,
estrogen tends to block/reduce release of thyroid hormone from the thyroid gland,
sometimes contributing to a goiter.
Progesterone opposes estrogen.
So progesterone, by reducing the blocking effect of estrogen, can allow the release of stored thyroid hormones from the thyroid gland.
If there is a noticeable goiter, adding progesterone can release a lot of thyroid hormones a bit too quickly, and potentially cause a temporary hyperthyroid state.
When there is a significant goiter, I think Peat recommends addressing that first, before adding extra progesterone.
But for many people the slight increase in thyroid hormone is OK and enjoyable.

This is theoretical - I'm female,can't answer you experiential question.

 

[cantstoppeating]

I took progesterone a while ago and noticed a profound increase in libido. At that time I also had more pronounced signs of estrogen dominance like chest fat.

If one has a clear sign of excess estrogen (through symptoms and/or blood work) then taking small amounts of progesterone can be helpful. Taking too much, especially when estrogen isn't a problem, is when things start to take you down the path of becoming a woman.

Nowadays, fixing the liver (high protein, caffeine, vitamin K2) and taking vitamin E are better and less risky (in terms of having positive effects on testosterone and DHT) approaches to lowering estrogen.