Progest E Or Pregnenolone?

[Blossom]

"By stimulating the adrenal glands estrogen can increase the production of male hormones that are associated with whiskers and chest hair." Ray Peat From PMS to Menopause page 5
Ray goes on to discuss how this is often seen in polycystic ovaries and menopause.

 

[Blossom]

"Later in life a deficiency of progesterone in a woman can lead to masculinization of some features such as musculature and facial or body hair." Ray Peat From PMS to Menopause page 35

 

[Kray]

sometimes I have more facial hair problems it seems when I've taken pregnenolone for any length of time.

What's your dose? I wonder if taking too little could produce enough progesterone to increase sensitivity to estrogen but not enough to make you feel good?

Can't give a precise dose of pregnenolone. I had backed off for the reasons stated but had been taking 12.5-25 mg/day off and on. I've even tried a single 300 mg dose once to see how that worked (Peat has mentioned that single doses continue to work over a length of days). It's one of those things when you're trying to pinpoint the cause of a problem-- am I not taking enough or am I taking too much? Since I am post-menopause, I do take about 10-20 mg/day of Progest-E, mostly at bedtime. I know Peat has also said that when you've been balanced out (preg/progest/etc) you may not need any more. My temps and pulse are decent enough without thyroid, but I am struggling with other more mental/emotional issues-- brain fog, occasional bouts of depression, and what now seems to be a chronic eczema rash on my neck area. Can't imagine the Progest-E would be causing skin problems. I want to know if maybe a low-dose thyroid can still be indicated in the presence of normal temps/pulse if my adrenals need to be straightened out (skin & other issues listed)?

 

[Blossom]

Ray is a very big advocate of optimizing thyroid function and the best way to do that is through self experimentation. It's hard to say exactly how you should go about doing that because everyone is a little different. Everyone has a thyroid unless it's been removed and in the modern world it's common to have it become a bit impaired. Just age alone can effect it. I don't need much these days but I also know it has been instrumental in helping me get my health back. There are lots of unique and helpful stories on the forum about thyroid but one thing is certain it is needed for optimal metabolism and therefore health.

 

[Kray]

Thanks for the feedback Blossom. Have you done the thyroid with normal temps and pulse, for other reasons?

 

[Blossom]

Thanks for the feedback Blossom. Have you done the thyroid with normal temps and pulse, for other reasons?

Yes. I had some disturbing symptoms and felt like through reading Peat's work it was one of the supplements that I should try. That said, I have had periods that seemed hypothyroid at various points throughout my life and remember prior labs with TSH at around 5(that was years ago). Maybe if I had had my thyroid issues taken serious by ' medical doctor' back then some unnecessary suffering could have been prevented.

 

[Blossom]

RP also mentions that most people are cortisol dominant after about the age of 40-45 in his book From PMS to Menopause. I felt that was my situation so I opted to use Progest-e, pregnenalone and thyroid in an effort to correct this pattern and begin moving toward a restorative and regenerative balance.

 

[Kray]

"Later in life a deficiency of progesterone in a woman can lead to masculinization of some features such as musculature and facial or body hair." Ray Peat From PMS to Menopause page 35

Can you tell me where I can find his book? I want to keep up the Progest-E, and just started NDT. If high cortisol could be an issue for someone over 50 (me), is pregnenolone known to cover that, or would just the progest and thyroid be enough, do you know? I'd be interested in knowing if in his book he covers these questions to give better information about what to choose and how much, at least for a reasonable starting point, beyond just "experimenting".

 

[Blossom]

"Later in life a deficiency of progesterone in a woman can lead to masculinization of some features such as musculature and facial or body hair." Ray Peat From PMS to Menopause page 35

Can you tell me where I can find his book? I want to keep up the Progest-E, and just started NDT. If high cortisol could be an issue for someone over 50 (me), is pregnenolone known to cover that, or would just the progest and thyroid be enough, do you know? I'd be interested in knowing if in his book he covers these questions to give better information about what to choose and how much, at least for a reasonable starting point, beyond just "experimenting".

He took the ordering page off his website several months ago unfortunately. I'm not in direct communication with him so I'm not sure if he plans to rerelease them in the future. I'm currently reading the book so I will let you know what I find as I'm reading. I'm certain there are people much more experienced than I am on this topic but I did want to share with you what I had read thus far. I think the dosages for all the supplements vary because a lot depends on an individual's context and only you know your situation fully. None of the supplements will harm you though. I had a rapid change of condition and had to adjust my thyroid down but everything worked out fine. I think part of the healing process is just learning to trust yourself and listen to your body. It sounds like you are on track with what you are doing. I will look up specifically what you have mentioned after work and see if I can find anything that could be of further help. Maybe in the meantime someone else with more expertise than I have will chime in!

 

[mas]

RP was on the Patrick Timpone Show on NewYears Day 2014 and he did say that he was going to get the book ordering page back in the future but he didn't say when.


Megin

 

[Kray]

"Later in life a deficiency of progesterone in a woman can lead to masculinization of some features such as musculature and facial or body hair." Ray Peat From PMS to Menopause page 35

Blossom & Megin: Thanks to both of you ladies for your attention to my questions and concerns! I really hope the book comes back, and I'll keep my eyes open.

As a sidenote, does either of you know anything about MSM or hyaluronic acid supplements and if they would be a-ok to use? They are those parts of the animals that we Americans typically don't include in our diets, as Peat often mentions. To add some context, my particular problem concerns my skin. It is like parchment! I have been unable to get rid of an itchy, dry, red eczema-looking rash on my neck and a few areas on my face which come and go, but the neck is starting to look like someone tried to choke me! I can't figure out what is causing this. I feel fine otherwise (I even have pretty normal temp and pulse, even without adding the thyroid). So as I was pondering this today, I remembered that I used to take MSM and HA internally.

Is it possible the muscle meat-to-other parts ratio is taking a toll on my body and shows up on my skin? I had been using quite a bit of bone broth and gelatin before this skin thing came on, probably about 3-4 months ago. I attributed the rash onset to too much of these products and high histamine. However, it hasn't really gotten better without them in my diet. I do still eat meat on a regular basis, a small portion of either lamb, beef, or bison almost everyday as part of my protein intake. In about the last week I began adding a bone back into my stews to get the gelatin components, but this wouldn't necessarily be enough or include the ligaments, tendons, etc. to make a huge difference.

Please let me know how things go for you, thanks for keeping me posted, and I'll let you know what happens with the MSM/HA. :)

 

[Blossom]

"Estrogen(like x-irradiation, aging, or trauma) called up the cortisone response, and other factors, especially progesterone and thyroid allowed the organism to restore itself in ways that neutralized the cortisone response."
"Therefore, when I saw that the estrogen-like process became more and more dominant after middle age, it was natural to think of progesterone and thyroid as the main factors that should be replaced." Ray Peat From PMS to Menopause page 102
I will continue to share anything I find that might help out. I just use gelatin myself and that is because I'm sensitive to many fillers in supplements. Antihistamines like cyproheptadine and benadryl have helped me with rashes.

 

[Kray]

Have you ever needed to continue taking the anti-histamines over time to eliminate rashes? Not sure if mine and yours are of the same nature; mine seems to be chronic. I've taken Benadryl a handful of times, on average about once a week when it seems my rash is flaring up. I'm not sure about taking it more than that. Of the 2 you mentioned, what would be your first choice for safety and efficacy?

 

[Blossom]

Have you ever needed to continue taking the anti-histamines over time to eliminate rashes? Not sure if mine and yours are of the same nature; mine seems to be chronic. I've taken Benadryl a handful of times, on average about once a week when it seems my rash is flaring up. I'm not sure about taking it more than that. Of the 2 you mentioned, what would be your first choice for safety and efficacy?

My first choice is cyproheptadine but if I don't have that I take benadryl. Elevated histamine seems to be one of the typical chronic stress responses that many people experience. I noticed my rashes began around 40 years old and we're similar to rashes I had seen on other family members. It wasn't until I discovered Peat's work that I really started to fully appreciate the stress response and all of its many manifestations. I still have a lot to learn but for me I find it beneficial to at least take one of the mentioned antihistamines before bed. I think letting the histamine go unopposed creates a viscous cycle. Maybe one day I won't need them but I'm not there yet. So mine are chronic I guess you could say. I think they are a result of years of poor health, mostly unintentionally selfimposed with inadequate 'medical' treatment. Now I'm left to repair the damage which is going well but I'm thankful for antihistamines! I chose cyproheptadine also because I had elevated gut serotonin which it helps with too but I'm currently taking a break from it because I'm using a different anti serotonin medication. Cyproheptadine requires a prescription in the US but benadryl doesn't. Hope that helps. There are threads on the topic of cyproheptadine you could check out that are very informative.

 

[Kray]

Blossom-- some great information that I had never considered. May I indulge you with a few more questions, at your convenience?

1. Do the rashes I've described sound like they could have the histamine connection, especially if I may not have my cortisol in check, given my age and the fact that up until now I haven't supplemented with thyroid which is known to help convert cholesterol into the steroids, such as progesterone? (By the way, I have a fairly high level of cholesterol, so I'm hoping the thyroid will facilitate my hormone balancing.)
2. Are the anti-histamines considered safe to use everyday? If I am working from this angle on the skin issue as well as (1) above, how long would you give it on the anti-histamine to work on getting rid of the rash?
3. Powdered pregnenolone-- can you tell me how much you take, what time of day? Do you take with food?
4. If I am just starting up on thyroid, might I be better off for now to see how the progest/thyroid complement each other to lower cortisol along with anti-histamines, and hold off on pregnenolone?
5. If I do add pregnenolone, for what reasons might you think it would be helpful above and beyond the Progest and thyroid if I am postmenopausal?
6. Thyroid-- it sounds like you may take Rx thyroid(s). Do you know if the OTC glandulars can be as effective, or am I wasting my time? (I'm starting with 1 tab per day, 130 mg but of course I can't really know what the equivalent strengths are- milligrams vs. grains. Will have to see how I feel as I go along. I have read many reviews by people who've done the OTC and have been very happy with them.)

Again, thanks for your great insights and experiences. You are very well informed and have done your homework. :)

 

[Blossom]

Blossom-- some great information that I had never considered. May I indulge you with a few more questions, at your convenience?

1. Do the rashes I've described sound like they could have the histamine connection, especially if I may not have my cortisol in check, given my age and the fact that up until now I haven't supplemented with thyroid which is known to help convert cholesterol into the steroids, such as progesterone? (By the way, I have a fairly high level of cholesterol, so I'm hoping the thyroid will facilitate my hormone balancing.)
2. Are the anti-histamines considered safe to use everyday? If I am working from this angle on the skin issue as well as (1) above, how long would you give it on the anti-histamine to work on getting rid of the rash?
3. Powdered pregnenolone-- can you tell me how much you take, what time of day? Do you take with food?
4. If I am just starting up on thyroid, might I be better off for now to see how the progest/thyroid complement each other to lower cortisol along with anti-histamines, and hold off on pregnenolone?
5. If I do add pregnenolone, for what reasons might you think it would be helpful above and beyond the Progest and thyroid if I am postmenopausal?
6. Thyroid-- it sounds like you may take Rx thyroid(s). Do you know if the OTC glandulars can be as effective, or am I wasting my time? (I'm starting with 1 tab per day, 130 mg but of course I can't really know what the equivalent strengths are- milligrams vs. grains. Will have to see how I feel as I go along. I have read many reviews by people who've done the OTC and have been very happy with them.)

Again, thanks for your great insights and experiences. You are very well informed and have done your homework. :)

Thanks, I had to take action because I was nearly disabled and had only negative experiences with 'medicine' over a long time. Be that as it may I feel we are all in this together and should help each other out to the best of our ability. Some people prefer to take it one step/change at a time and I can see the value in that if your health is good enough to allow you that luxury. I currently use cynomel which is recommended by Peat. I did take cynoplus for a while but took too high of a dose and had to back off. I've made some mistakes but have had far more success and learned a valuable lesson in the process. What I learned is that for me this healing has been more powerful than I could have hoped for and to stop putting mental limits on what I think is possible. I also know that I have to keep track of diet with the cronometer, and pulse and temp is something I can't slack off on monitoring. I use pregnenalone powder from ark of wellness because it comes with a certificate of purity. I take 70mg per day in the morning with food. I'm always fine tuning things so for awhile I was just taking it a couple times per week. I chose the cynoplus and cynomel because RP specifically recommends those and nothing else that I'm aware of. I tried NDT but seemed sensitive to the binders in it anyway. If you are not too bothered by your rash then you could always hold off and see how your system does with thyroid and progesterone before taking an antihistamine. You get to decide! It beautiful. No authority telling you what to do, just learning what works for your body.

 

[Kray]

Great points! I think you covered all my questions in that! Still curious though, on question #3-- if one were doing all but the pregnenolone (just progest and thyroid), what benefits would the pregnenolone provide that maybe the other 2 alone couldn't? Just seems like pregnenolone is somewhat enigmatic in people's experience as to the need, the benefits and feedback. Are we just trying "all of the above" because Peat says they're all good? Can you say what you feel you lack without the pregnenolone, and how you feel better on it? :)

 

[mas]

I am relatively new at all this but I will just place out some of my ideas on how I am trying to approach to both diet and the supplements. I am going slowly and carefully due to my serious illness- POTS, exhaustion, brain fog, fibro pain, freezing hands, freezing feet from my toes to mid calf that take hours to warm up (my whole life thyroid tests NORMAL now I see that this isn't so), cold and heat intolerance, chronic sinus infections. … Medical Monopololy failure by design.

I'm trying to add one thing at a time and see how that goes before I start another.

For about 1 1/2 years started with RP diet principles because I wanted to start gently. I'm not perfect with this but I can see that this has been very positive for my health but definitely not enough. I am going to try to take more gelatin, lessen up on the meat,take more sugar, etc… I see this as an ongoing experiment as I certainly don't have all the answers for myself.

About 4 months ago, I started with the pregnenolone 30 mg daily and this has helped with the stress hormones (I have high adrenaline response heart tachycardia, faintness, sweating, tremulousness, etc…RP sayslow thyroid, low glucose causes high adrenaline and people can have up to 40 times the adrenaline response compared to healthy people.) I have a lot more work in front of me trying to heal.

RP said that these big 3 factors were important for healing and restoring metabolism:
* red light
* progesterone
* thyroid

I noticed that pregnenolone wasn't on the list, but RP does mention its use along with progesterone.

As soon as my Progest-e and Nutripak order arrives, I am going to just start with one because I want to see how I react. I don't know whether I should try Progest-e and try to see if this helps lower the estrogen, or go for the Nutripak. I don't want to use 2 products together yet because I want to be able to clearly see the effects of one. I will also go off pregnenolone, which I may be able to use in the future in combination. I just don't know enough now.

For me its one thing at a time- slow incrementalism with diet, slow use of supplements one at a time and starting at low doses. Reading peoples stories and experiences have helped greatly.

I am trying not to be impatient, but I think I am in for a long haul. I am on my own here and don't have a cooperative doctor. How can one get assistance and guidance from a doctor who doesn't understand physiology in the first place. When I got sick 9 years ago the drugs that I took hurt me more than helped. Now I am ready to help myself.

Classiclady- have you tried the red light therapy along with your supplements? I do this daily and how much it is helping I have no idea.

Have you listened to the KMUD interviews with RP?- very helpful.


Megin

 

[Kray]

Classiclady- have you tried the red light therapy along with your supplements? I do this daily and how much it is helping I have no idea.

Have you listened to the KMUD interviews with RP?- very helpful.

I should tune in. I do have a red light therapy device. I am dealing with a stubborn dry rash on my neck and face and thought the LED red would help. I started out using it a lot, then cut back to a few times a week, per mfg's suggestions. I have started back for only about 5 mins a day every other day or so. So far I can't say it's made much of a difference but I'm also introducing a natural thyroid (like Nutri-Pak, called American Biologics Thyroid) and hope that that together with Progest-E I've taken for a long time for menopause will bring my hormones into balance and take care of the skin problem along with. It is tricky indeed. I am in the same predicament with doctors, and much more so now than ever before. To quote my friend, there is a good reason it's called medical "practice"!

Keep up the work and patience, knowing you are not alone, and are learning as we go along.

 

[Blossom]

Great points! I think you covered all my questions in that! Still curious though, on question #3-- if one were doing all but the pregnenolone (just progest and thyroid), what benefits would the pregnenolone provide that maybe the other 2 alone couldn't? Just seems like pregnenolone is somewhat enigmatic in people's experience as to the need, the benefits and feedback. Are we just trying "all of the above" because Peat says they're all good? Can you say what you feel you lack without the pregnenolone, and how you feel better on it? :)

I use pregnenalone because of the improved mood stability I experience with it. For me it has the effect of normalizing my mind I guess you could say, no more racing thoughts etc. I've improved to the point where that really doesn't happen anymore so if I miss a day it's no big deal. I took SSRI meds for years and I think I'm still repairing some damage from that experience. Other things have helped as well and I think it's all just various ways impaired cellular respiration presents uniquely in each person. I couldn't have made it through the winter without the red light. I'm not going to decrease anything else until at least spring. The weather here is horrific and I need all the tools I can get to deal with it! I'm sure pregnenalone is not for everyone but for my context it's a valuable tool. Peat says it is safe at any dose. I will try to find some quotes.