Progesterone In Men

[Nick Ireland]

Mars - did you get an SHBG by any chance? I'm UK too and it's usually done on the sex hormone panels standard to NHS.

Low DHEA, in the absense of adrenal tumor, is most likely caused by hypothyroidism. The body synthesizes cortisol along the pathways, and progesterone is on the pathway to cortisol. I guess you can call that "cortisol steal from cholesterol" if we have to be accurate. However, if you supplement more cholesterol or more progesterone that does not mean that the body will synthesize more cortisol just b/c both substances are on the pathway to it. Supplementing progesterone should actually lower cortisol, so I am welcoming your suggestion to do blood tests and share results Maybe we can have some ore clarity.
As to the other question - I meant progesterone should lower TSH. Progesterone seems to quite down the pituitary and lower all of the hormones coming from it. However, TSH will probably go down if progesterone improves thyroid function shown by increase T4 and T3. If that does not happen then I guess progesterone won't lower TSH. Did you check your T4 and T3 levels together with TSH? If yes, did they rise or drop as a result of progesterone?

1) My testing is saliva for cortisol and not blood.

2) I have TSH and FT4 data only, not FT3 unfortunately. My Ft4 on 125 T4 was 18 before progesterone in January and the SAME after using progesterone for 3 weeks i think in April. However, TSH went from 0.01 to 0.5. So i assume my FT3 went down a bit because it was suddenly getting absorbed better by the body because of the prog, and so the body sensed it needed more T3 conversion. It is a shame i dont have the FT3 to confirm this, but UK testing is poor. I do know i am a very good converter of T4 to T3 and so i usually have an FT3 at the top of the range.

3) Also i dont know if you spotted an earlier comment i made on this thread that my testosterone has jumped 25% after using the progesterone. It went from 18 to 22.4 nmol/l (8-31). So i have a mid range testosterone level and now a little higher.

 

[marsaday]

No i got blood testing done privately and the testosterone was a free extra. Costs £90 normally. IT is about £250 to get a full male hormone profile done here i think

 

[haidut]

Haidut, thanks. Is your suggestion based on your personal experience and what you've found most helpful and balancing? My husband may suffer from the same adrenal issues as yourself. Doing some more searching on the forum, I found this:

(DHEA Experiences- Mittir post)
[Ray Peat wrote:
Young people produce about 12 to 15 milligrams of DHEA per day, and that amount decreases by about 2 mg. per day for every decade after the age of 30. This is one of the reasons that young people eat more without getting fat, and tolerate cold weather better: DHEA, like the thyroid hormone, increases our heat production and ability to burn calories. At the age of 50, about 4 mg. of DHEA per day will usually restore the level of DHEA in the blood to a youthful level. It is important to avoid taking more than needed, since some people (especially if they are deficient in progesterone, pregnenolone, or thyroid) can turn the excess into estrogen or testosterone, and large amounts of those sex hormones can disturb the function of the thymus gland and the liver.

People who have taken an excess of DHEA have been found to have abnormally high estrogen levels, and this can cause the liver to enlarge, and the thymus to shrink.

One study has found that the only hormone abnormality in a group of Alzheimers patients' brains was an excess of DHEA. In cell culture, DHEA can cause changes in glial cells resembling those seen in the aging brain. These observations suggest that DHEA should be used with caution. Supplements of pregnenolone and thyroid seem to be the safest way to optimize DHEA production.]

I don't think my husband would go the thyroid route, but could pregnenolone be a better option rather than DHEA, or just the progesterone in small doses?

Yes, I do take DHEA in 5mg doses 2-3 times a day, but not everyday. I find the effects very similar to thyroid.
Peat does caution against excess DHEA but at the doses I use it it matches endogenous production and none of the long term studies with higher doses of DHEA found any issues with brain function. The accumulation of DHEA in AD brains could very well be adaptive and protective, not causal factor in the disease. I think Peat only mentions it to caution against abusing DHEA. He himself takes it at an age when it would be most dangerous for conditions such as AD.

 

[Kray]

Haidut:

Thanks, that's very helpful on the DHEA question. As to progesterone, I assume from your earlier comment you include that too? About how much and how often? (My husband has been taking Progest-E about 10mg 2-3 times per week, and he is sleeping better/through the night).

 

[haidut]

Haidut:

Thanks, that's very helpful on the DHEA question. As to progesterone, I assume from your earlier comment you include that too? About how much and how often? (My husband has been taking Progest-E about 10mg 2-3 times per week, and he is sleeping better/through the night).

I don't really take progesterone unless I am experimenting with something. For me, oral or dermal pregnenolone raises progesterone several fold so in my case Peat seems to be right about pregnenolone - it is a safer source of progesterone synthesis in men. For me, pregnenolone provides the checks and balances on DHEA so that it does not get out of control. Again, matches with what Peat said from your quote earlier in the thread.

 

[Kray]

Yes, that makes sense on the pregn vs. progest. Aside from lab tests, are there some basic guidelines you could recommend for frequency in dosing DHEA & pregnenolone? How do you determine how often, unless this is getting too personal? Advantages of oral vs. dermal pregnenolone? (Do you still sell the liquid pregn?)

 

[haidut]

Yes, that makes sense on the pregn vs. progest. Aside from lab tests, are there some basic guidelines you could recommend for frequency in dosing DHEA & pregnenolone? How do you determine how often, unless this is getting too personal? Advantages of oral vs. dermal pregnenolone? (Do you still sell the liquid pregn?)

I think we mentioned earlier that DHEA should be taken below 15mg daily and each dose is no more than 5mg. Peat's statement of physiological output of 12mg - 14mg daily matches well with the studies showing optimal results from under 15mg daily. In one rat study I posted, the human equivalent of 12mg - 14mg DHEA daily had the SAME effects as exercise and raised DHT by about 70%. Since Peat's writings precede the study I posted I can only conclude that this seems to be the optimal dose since both Peat and several groups of researchers arrived at this dose independently.
Pregnenolone can be taken at any time but I like taking it before bed since it can be sedative due to its conversion to progesterone and allopregnanolone. I think Peat's recommendation of 100mg daily is probably OK for most people, unless the person has Cushing disease in which case pregnenolone can be hit or miss. In another thread we talked about progesterone improving magnesium retention, so taking a hefty dose of magneisum with the pregnenolone at night can make for a very nice sleep aid and boost metabolism at the same time.
And yes, I still sell the liquid pregnenolone but I am also about to release another liquid product containing both pregnenolone and DHEA. You may wan to wait a few days if you plan on ordering, so you can get both steroids in one product.

 

[Kray]

Thanks for the clarification on DHEA dosing. I'll follow the link for the upcoming combo product, and look forward to (husband) using it. Really great to know about the added benefits for sleep/metabolism. I assume instructions on container give clear dosing, but can you tell me, for a starting dose, your recommendation?

I just finished reading your comment on another thread regarding half-life of oral vs. topical dosing (Topical Absorption of Caffeine, Aspirin, etc). Can you comment on the pros/cons of taking the DHEA/pregnenolone oral vs. topical?

Thanks for your products, and for your invaluable help and information.

 

[haidut]

Thanks for the clarification on DHEA dosing. I'll follow the link for the upcoming combo product, and look forward to (husband) using it. Really great to know about the added benefits for sleep/metabolism. I assume instructions on container give clear dosing, but can you tell me, for a starting dose, your recommendation?

I just finished reading your comment on another thread regarding half-life of oral vs. topical dosing (Topical Absorption of Caffeine, Aspirin, etc). Can you comment on the pros/cons of taking the DHEA/pregnenolone oral vs. topical?

Thanks for your products, and for your invaluable help and information.

I think if used in combination, a good starting dose would be 10mg prenenolone and 5mg DHEA. Some people report agitation and too much energy on this ratio, so a ratio of 1:1 may be better for them. So, try 5mg of each orally or topically. Topical steroids tend to have much longer half-life and in the case of DHEA tend to metabolize primarily into androgens such as DHT, perhaps twice as much in favor of androgens as oral DHEA. But with low doses of no more than 5mg DHEA even oral administration is likely to be mostly androgenic in effect.

 

[Kray]

Haidut:

I'm a little confused about men using DHEA vs not. So the androgenic effect is a good thing but not to excess (anxiety, too much energy)? Keeping it under that level is the goal, and you cycle your dosing accordingly?

Could you summarize the overall benefits of using both hormones for men in their 50s and beyond?

Would there ever be a case when just pregnenolone would be indicated?

I mentioned earlier that I have some of your pregnenolone on hand; would you please refresh me on the mg/drop value?

Lastly, when is your DHEA/pregnenolone formula expected to be up for sale? What is the serving size on that?

Thank you.

 

[GAF]

haidut wrote above "DHEA so that it does not get out of control"

What does out of control DHEA do to a male person? My DHEA-Sulfate was 400 (ref range 38-313 mcg/dl) in a recent blood test. Would that be "out of control"? And, What might one do to get in back in control? I have some pregnenolone 100 and have taken it off and on for the last few months.

I Appreciate any insights.

 

[haidut]

haidut wrote above "DHEA so that it does not get out of control"

What does out of control DHEA do to a male person? My DHEA-Sulfate was 400 (ref range 38-313 mcg/dl) in a recent blood test. Would that be "out of control"? And, What might one do to get in back in control? I have some pregnenolone 100 and have taken it off and on for the last few months.

I Appreciate any insights.

DHEA can very easily turn into estrogen if you are under stress or hypothyroid. When I talked about DHEA being kept under control I meant when supplementing. To do that, pregnenolone or progesterone are needed as well as keeping DHEA intake at low doses and under a certain amount total daily.
If your endogenous DHEA levels are high then this is another matter altogether. I would discontinue the pregnenolone and if DHEA levels are still above range after 2 weeks then I would go see an endocrinologist.

 

[Peaterpeater]

Just read this thread and wanted to include my experience with taking a 50mg capsule of pregnenolone over the summer. I almost immediately felt "estrogenic" effects from it such as sore breasts, water retention and a feeling of manic. I haven't taken prenenolone since then and am starting to feel better ie. sore breasts and manic feelings are gone but water retention remains. Before that awful experience I was taking 2.5mg of sublingual dhea along with 2.5mg of sublingual preg. I didn't get those "estrogenic feelings" from this regimen but instead I ended up with a chest full of tiny pimples. Actually my entire chest and shoulder area ended up covered in the tiniest of pimply-like raised bumps. Can someone explain the reason for the bumps/pimples. Could this be due to a lack of vitamin A?

 

[haidut]

post 98937 Just read this thread and wanted to include my experience with taking a 50mg capsule of pregnenolone over the summer. I almost immediately felt "estrogenic" effects from it such as sore breasts, water retention and a feeling of manic. I haven't taken prenenolone since then and am starting to feel better ie. sore breasts and manic feelings are gone but water retention remains. Before that awful experience I was taking 2.5mg of sublingual dhea along with 2.5mg of sublingual preg. I didn't get those "estrogenic feelings" from this regimen but instead I ended up with a chest full of tiny pimples. Actually my entire chest and shoulder area ended up covered in the tiniest of pimply-like raised bumps. Can someone explain the reason for the bumps/pimples. Could this be due to a lack of vitamin A?

The bumps and pimples are most likely androgenic side effects from DHEA. So, I would lower the dose or take with a little bit of progesterone/pregnenolone. In terms of pregnenolone being estrogenic - how do you know that? Did you do any blood work, especially for prolactin since it is a good indicator of estrogen in tissues? If you are doing blood work, this thread has some info on when to test and how to interpret the results. Look towards the end of the thread for my posts discussing estrogen, progesterone and their ratio on blood/tissues.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7509&p=95287&hilit=luteal+estrogen+blood+tissue#p95287

 

[Peaterpeater]

Thank you very much for your reply Haidut. I really really really appreciate all your help. To answer your question, I didn't do any tests over the summer because I'm away from my lab while on holiday. Also, I've spent so much money on labs in the past that I can't afford to do any more (my husband put his foot down regarding further lab testing). Are you aware of any other possible reasons for sore breasts, water retention and anxiety? I thought that in the past I had these symptoms because i was taking dhea/preg while undiagnosed hypothyroid (no meds). Now I'm on both T4 & T3 for the past 6 months and still getting the same type of response when taking 50mg Pregnenolone. I'm confused. Maybe my liver is still overburdened.

 

[haidut]

post 99109 Thank you very much for your reply Haidut. I really really really appreciate all your help. To answer your question, I didn't do any tests over the summer because I'm away from my lab while on holiday. Also, I've spent so much money on labs in the past that I can't afford to do any more (my husband put his foot down regarding further lab testing). Are you aware of any other possible reasons for sore breasts, water retention and anxiety? I thought that in the past I had these symptoms because i was taking dhea/preg while undiagnosed hypothyroid (no meds). Now I'm on both T4 & T3 for the past 6 months and still getting the same type of response when taking 50mg Pregnenolone. I'm confused. Maybe my liver is still overburdened.

Water retention and anxiety could be due to cortisol/adrenaline stress reaction. However, until more is known I would either reduce pregnenolone dose or stop taking it. Physiological doses are in the range 30mg - 50mg per day, so maybe you can try a lower dose?

 

[beachbum]

post 75036 I find progesterone great. It makes me unstressed, social and more energetic . I use tiny doses less than 3mg per day, split up. I also take it with 3mg/day 7-keto dhea. Progesterone converts into cortisol for me and the 7keto balances this out.

However it does affect guys libido. If u want to know what being castrated feels like follow the advice of Wray on the site mentioned.
Even at my low dose I have definite libido issues. I don't know whether the progesterone itself or the cortisol it converts to are responsible for the reduced testosterone.

Pregnenolone just jacks up estrogen for me.

Regarding Wray's site most of the men are over 40 or at whatever age have problems with estrogen. I don't know if you were mocking her but she always says go by symptoms so maybe the low libido is do to too much progesterone. Here is her site about progesterone and men http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/prog ... z3rHZtCsJi

She also refers people to read Ray Peat. So maybe you need to lower progesterone and add something else along with it. For and example I stopped using vit d, mag, zinc become they increase testosterone ( im female). Anyway.. if I sound off I don't mean to. Just that if I didn't read Wray's site I would be in a whole different health place..not a good one. So I thank God for her site.

Thank you

 

[answersfound]

I strongly believe men should not take progesterone. I think haiduts pansterone is a much better idea. What man wants to walk around with no libido? Maybe a priest.

 

[marsaday]

post 109168 I strongly believe men should not take progesterone. I think haiduts pansterone is a much better idea. What man wants to walk around with no libido? Maybe a priest.

Not true. The amount of progesterone is the key thing here. Progesterone is part of the hormone cascade and is higher up. It will break down into cortisol, testosterone or oestrogen. It will help spare DHEA if boosting cortisol and so help the rebalance there. I have seen from my own blood tests that progesterone boosted my testosterone level by 25%. I used 2 drops (6mgs) per day to do this.

I am due to get another blood test soon and it will be interesting to see where my testosterone is now. I am only using 3mg per day now. The key is to use a small amount if a man. I tried 3 drops per day and it didn't agree with me.

 

[Agent207]

Progesterone therapy in men: crucial for men over 40 ?

A4M Las Vegas 12-2006

If progesterone is best known as a major hormone in women, it appears to be important for men too.

Progesterone is mainly secreted by the adrenal glands in men.

It is a relatively abundant hormone in men. Progesterone’s serum level exceeds that of major hormones such as dihydrotestosterone, estradiol, aldosterone, triiodothyronine, calcitonin and melatonin. Men have as much progesterone in their blood as women during three quarters of their lifetime. The serum level of progesterone in men is as high as that of young adult women in the follicular phase.

Based on the latest data, it can be assumed that progesterone’s plays a strategic role: avoiding excesses in men of the dominant female hormone, estradiol, and of the most potent male hormone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT). It is a crucial hormone for endocrine balance. Fundamental mechanisms used by progesterone to accomplish this task: a speeding up of the conversion of estradiol to the much less potent estrogen estrone and a competitive blocking of the conversion of testosterone to DHT.

The production and levels of progesterone progressively decline with age, slowly installing in men a progesterone deficiency syndrome. The progesterone deficiency syndrome in men is dominated by the consequences of excesses in estradiol and DHT. Worth mentioning are the gynoid aspect of the body with gynecomastia, benign prostate hypertrophy and excessive stimulation of (ortho)sympatic nervous system, attributable to hyperestrogenemia. Possible other signs and symptoms are hirsutism with male pattern baldness in men and possibly some degree of excessive genital sensitivity, consequences of excessive levels of dihydrotestosterone in comparison with testosterone.

New light is presented here on some medical enigmas that may be partially or totally due to progesterone deficiency: progressive feminization of the male body with age, male pattern baldness, benign prostate hypertrophy, prostate cancer, men/female libido/sexual sensitivity imbalance with age. For example, the discrepancy between men and women in sexual interest and sensitivity at age 40 may not only be due to the sharp decline of testosterone, the hormone of desire, in women at that age. It possibly and partially could be due to an increase in libido, caused by hyperestrogenemia, associated to an increasingly rising genital sensitivity and need to ejaculate of men at that age, consequence of an increased DHT to testosterone ratio. Both hyperestrogenemia and high DHT/testosterone ratio may themselves be consequences of progesterone deficiency and thus trigger partner frustration and quarrels.

Progesterone treatment in men can best be corrected by either the oral intake of micronized progesterone or of a transdermal progesterone liposomal gel. Some improvement in the diet is a plus point. The intake of foods that reduce progesterone production such as sugar, sweets, bread, pastas, soft drinks and alcohol, should be minimized or simply avoided. These drinks or foods reduce the endocrine secretions of the adrenal cortex that produces progesterone. In addition, foods that tend to increase the levels of estradiol such as caffeinated beverages and alcohol should too become a rare part of the diet. On the other hand, the intake of foods that increase the adrenal’s production of progesterone such as food rich in protein or healthy saturated fat, deserve to be recommended.

Hertoghe T.