probiotic craze, fermented food craze

[pboy]

probiotic craze, fermented food craze

im wondering how this ever came to be? I almost think it should be illegal to add live microbes to food without more testing, or at least the proclaimed benefits not allowed on the package. I mean...if the food label said nothing else but (insert ingredient here) with mold, or with bacteria...I don't think anyone would want to buy them. We take huge measures to assure food safety by cooking, sanitizing, having a strong stomach, chlorinating water, testing for microbes, pasteurizing, irradiating, ozinating...ect, yet somehow companies are allowed to add relatively untested microbes or ingredients derived from them into foods and even claim benefits. I think the reason they 'stimulate the immune system' and 'increase serotonin from the gut' is because they are literally requiring the immune system to deal with them and neutralize all the microbes or their residues. Am I the only one who doesn't buy any of this and thinks its actually kind of crazy? Its sad actually in a way, people have become 100% disconnected from the food and cooking and all that aspect of life to the point they will believe, try, and trust pretty much anything.

eventually people have to realize that happiness doesn't come from food...its not like you can just eat probiotics and you'll suddenly produce serotonin and be happy and ***t clean. All food or anything can do is help facilitate you to be able to obtain happiness from interactions, achievements, loving communication...stuff like that. Theres no miracle in food. Theres only medicinal herbal type foods that can open you up so you might do the real things, the real actions and say the real words and interact in a way that brings happiness

the most important factor in food, if there is any, is indeed the love factor that was put into it, the company and experience around it...which both don't actually even require food...its just a direct way of communicating sweetness

 

[Blossom]

I feel the same. I think that the fermented food and probiotic craze has come from romanticism of the past when the fermentation was sometimes necessary to preserve food. I bought into it too at one point. I think people want to feel better so they buy into things and hope they work. I don't think a small amount of probiotic or fermented food will hurt a healthy person but they definitely aren't necessary for health. I even tried soil based probiotics at one point because I was that desperate to be well. They all made me sick as did my homemade water kefir etc. If I hadn't felt the ill effects first hand I might still believe they are good for people. Now I know it was mainly the metabolic burden of the lactic acid but at the time it was happening I couldn't understand it at all. One book that really glorifies fermentation is Nourishing Traditions by S.Fallon. When I read that I even fermented my oatmeal! I've sure come to my senses after discovering Peat. The nutritional dark ages, it's not a joke.

 

[pboy]

agreed...some people seem to have good intent, albeit ignorant...but I found out how irritating most probiotic / ferments usually end up being. Its one thing to offer a hungry person food with good intention, probiotic or not...but to exaggerate, or flat out lie, hike up the price, and make false promises in the pursuit of selling something just to make a personal material gain...not loving or good at all. No wonder commercial overpriced probiotic foods and supplements are irritating...it kind of reflects the truth behind the rhetoric and glamour of the people pushing them, a signal that yea...its not worth the money, or time. Thinking you need them or believing the promises made regarding them, that you NEED them from food...its just weight on the soul, irritation on the gut

 

[Blossom]

"Preventively, avoiding foods containing lactic acid, such as yogurt and sauerkraut would be helpful, since bacterial lactic acid is much more toxic than the type we form under stress." Ray Peat Mitochondria and Mortality July 2000

 

[Combie]

I think if you focus on probiotics alone you are doomed to failure. I tried everything, capsules, kefir, sauerkraut, even homemade suppositories. Any benefits were transient. I think the only way to normalise gut flora is by alternating rounds of anti- and pre-biotic substances. A kind of weed and feed approach. I know Ray says we dont need these bacteria, but he also says we may as well get used to them they are a fact of life. Maintaining a sterile gut is for practical purposes unattainable, we can only influence their type, location and numbers

 

[Blossom]

I do try to avoid them as much as possible just because I was feeling so compromised that I would notice feeling worse after consuming them. These days I'm sure I get a bit in Greek yogurt. I actually bought a different farmers cheese and this one proudly displays the fact that it contains probiotics! I hope that works out ok.

 

[mas]

Many "health" websites were calling Kombucha the "elixir of life". People make their own disgusting brews at home and watch it ferment. I wouldn't go near the stuff.

According to Wikipedia these are some ingredients-

Kombucha contains multiple species of yeast and bacteria along with the organic acids, active enzymes, amino acids, and polyphenols produced by these microbes. The precise quantities of a sample can only be determined by laboratory analysis and vary depending on the fermentation method, but kombucha may contain any of the following: Acetic acid, Ethanol, Gluconic acid, Glucuronic acid, Glycerol, Lactic acid, Usnic acid and B-vitamins.

Megin

 

[HDD]

I attempted to make my own because it is pricey. It was pretty disgusting watching this slime grow. I eventually threw it out. Oysters and liver should be a piece of cake after ingesting many bottles of kombucha. :)

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Combie said: "we can only influence their type, location and numbers"

Exactly how does one go about doing this?

I did the GAPS, Body Ecology, WAPF, LOW CARB, Primal sh*t for years.....I lost a lot of weight, but never fixed my gut/digestive and acne issues despite consuming MASSIVE amounts of probiotics and fermented foods. I spent a ton of money on supplements and countless hours fermenting milk kefir, sauerkraut, kombucha, etc. Three years of daily ingesting hardcore ferments and NOTHING has changed, nothing.

 

[Combie]

bigpeatowski,

the focus for most seems to be a kind of microbe warfare, adding bacteria to fight bacteria leads to, well, loads of bacteria and loads of dead bacteria, thus endotoxin. Doesnt really help for long if at all. What i did was to take fairly strong broad spectrum antibiotics, which lowers total flora, but does not affect balance. then consume resistant starches, soluble fibres, demulcent herbs etc to support regrowth of bacteria in a more favourable ratio. rinse and repeat. stuff like garlic, green tea, grapeseed extarct can be used to suppress pathogenic bacteria regrowth while having less impact on the beneficials.

I know thats probably entirely anti-Ray, but it worked for me, or at least the battle is being won.

Having a good metabolism and digestion are key to the above working btw..

 

[Blossom]

The only probiotic that seemed to be positive was florastor and that is actually a yeast that is commonly found on lychee fruit. It seemed to take away some of the excessive oxidative stress probably by displacing the lactic acid producing bacteria. Regardless, I'm glad I don't need it anymore.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Thanks Combie....I think you are correct in that for all of my fermenting craziness all I did was further irritate my guts with goitrogenic cabbage fibers, excess lactic acid etc. I now believe this seriously boosted endotoxin levels and therefore serotonin release which contributed to my already estrogen dominant condition....all thyroid suppressive, no? I cannot believe how utterly misled I was!

On the contrary, the things that seem to be helping are: doubling my Armour thyroid, aspirin daily, starting Progest-E, two raw carrots daily... oh, and activated charcoal on occasion. I am just starting to feel normal after wandering for years in the anti-sugar/soil-based organisms/candida-diet wilderness.

 

[pboy]

it seems strange considering most of us did fine as children without probiotic foods. A lot of them cause irritation and smelly gas...a good indicator of digestive distress. I think they are more of a preservation strategy rather than a nutritional enhancer. It seems cultures who fermented foods in the past had no qualms about cooking the fermented food...in fact they often do, and did...to render the food safer. Considering our body and the air we breath accumulate random microbes simply from the environment...I think our body and the environment govern the microbe count and type on their own...and its a moot point to try to change that through food. I mean...think about it, people patent rare microbe strains because they are novel and they can...but theres no real reason to do so and put them in food...sure they can prove they aren't poisonous...and? It would be like gathering some rare rock and proving it wasn't poisonous, powdering it and using as a filler in some kind of food...then making vague claims and pointing to websites or articles with disclaimers and generally no proof, where marketing and miracle type rhetoric is written about the product

 

[Amazoniac]

Sometimes I think that Koreans are so used to spicy in fermented foods to hide their natural flavour and smell. After fermenting for months in vessels under the floor you must add the spicyness beforehand to be able to consume..

Unrelated to that, I was wondering how powerful must be those microorganisms that were cultured in the traditional ginger and carrot recipe.

 

[Zachs]

I think if you focus on probiotics alone you are doomed to failure. I tried everything, capsules, kefir, sauerkraut, even homemade suppositories. Any benefits were transient. I think the only way to normalise gut flora is by alternating rounds of anti- and pre-biotic substances. A kind of weed and feed approach. I know Ray says we dont need these bacteria, but he also says we may as well get used to them they are a fact of life. Maintaining a sterile gut is for practical purposes unattainable, we can only influence their type, location and numbers

Huh? I thought just the small intestine was supposed to be sterile.

Good discussion, i have also tried lots of probiotics and food and only got increased GI stress. I still eat yogurt once in awhile because it tastes good but stay away from the drinks and other weird stuff like kimchi.

Since bacteria live (and probably die) in these ferment, would it be safe to assume they they might carry a pretty high endotoxin load?

 

[Kasper]

The lactic argument of Ray Peat doesn't seem to hold any truth, see:
http://peatarian.com/30103/critical-rev ... gen-really

I think he bases his findings on yoghurt/fermentation on (his own) practical experience. Sure if you don't react good on fermented food, don't eat it, but I can't see any reason that the amount of lactic acid found in yoghurt or kefir could be a serious problem (in general).

I've tested drinking 1 or 2L of kefir (grass-fed, organic,raw) vs 1 or 2L of milk (pasteurized,homogenized, grass-fed). Testing 1 month kefir or 1 month milk. I do a lot better on kefir, without any doubt. One of the most visible changes is that with kefir my hand writing is much better.

I know lots of people that do better with fermented dairy then with normal dairy. Many people on http://peatarian.com/ seem to have the same experience.

 

[gretchen]

Candida was huge in the 90s. Everyone thought they had it, and probiotics and fermented foods were hailed as the cure. People thought candida had something to do with cancer, and also sugar was blamed.

Beginning in the late 90s, a wholistic nutritionist named Donna Gates began pushing the idea of fermented dairy product called kefir as the cure for candida. The idea took off and kept going, leading to the popularization of fermented kombucha drinks (also said to cure cancer)--an alternative to soda, and good for you.

It was part of the personal products "DIY" self help movement spearheaded by the Boomers, whose central message was that "now we know" ........that you have to feed your intestinal bacteria, eat less, move more, load up on fiber, and take tons of hormones to eliminate menopause. We know things are better now that it takes a granite counter in a million dollar home to set the probiotics and kefir starter kit on. It's real health, unlike what people had to live through in the 50's. If you won't take all the supplements (and also run), it's because you're lazy. Or stupid.

 

[cowgirl88]

I second everything which has been mentioned in this thread. Though I don't understand much about anything still, I do understand that I too, feel worse after all the fermented products I consumed.
so...it is true that we actually need bacteria to be alive?? I really wana get a hold of some good antibiotics as I feel so messed up inside..is there anything that we should do/take after antibiotics?

 

[jyb]

It was part of the personal products "DIY" self help movement spearheaded by the Boomers, whose central message was that "now we know" ........that you have to feed your intestinal bacteria, eat less, move more, load up on fiber, and take tons of hormones to eliminate menopause. We know things are better now that it takes a granite counter in a million dollar home to set the probiotics and kefir starter kit on. It's real health, unlike what people had to live through in the 50's. If you won't take all the supplements (and also run), it's because you're lazy. Or stupid.

Not saying kefir is good or bad, but I don't think you're right in implying kefir starter kit is expensive or lucrative. It's cheap and lasts forever. You can make kefir/yogurt yourself for free and for the rest of your life once you have the kefir grains, which cost is only that of 1 or 2 commercial kefir/yogurt products from the store.

The use of kefir grains to make homemade yogurt goes back to way before the 90s (and I'm not even talking about dairy tribes who use it or the healthy Masai tribes who enjoyed both milk and fermented milk, which Ray has mentioned in his articles, or the Kazakhs whom Ray has also mentioned). Again, doesn't mean it's good or bad. But if you have to consume fermented dairy, wouldn't you prefer to consume the products / bacteria strains that is closer to what these traditions had?

 

[Zachs]

The issue with large amounts of probiotics is if the person who is taking them has a leaky gut issue, their endotoxin load could greatly increase. Since the vast majority of people have at least some form of IBS, hypothyroid or other issue, its safe to say the permeable guts are pretty common. So reducing endotoxin load as much as possible is important.

Another thing thats always bothered me about probiotic consumption os that the microbes have to go through the stomach in order to colonize the gut. I wonder how many even can make it through and so your basically just ingesting dead microbes.