Obesity is estrogen-driven; Chronic fasting burns mostly muscle, not fat

[Rinse & rePeat]

I’m Biased towards being happy laughing a lot feeling strong sleeping like a rock and being able to work all day and help others.

This is it.

 

[Risingfire]

Hardly. All of you are just coping and seeking confirmation bias to confirm that fasting is bad. When it’s actually the best thing to do for serious weight loss. It’s undeniable.
Many, many positive success stories and they rarely regain the weight.
Anyone that denies the benefits is simply ignorant or has bad intentions.

Lose muscle mass? What muscle mass? People who do not workout hardly have any muscle mass to lose.
Stop with the cope. Fasting is the best intervention for weight loss. Period. And I’m not saying it’s good for overall health.

Even @Dapose confirmed that it works for weight loss.

It's good for temporary weight loss. You gain it back and then more as it reduces your metabolism

People who do not workout have hardly any muscle mass? What? You know what increases metabolism? Lean muscle mass

 

[LLight]

All of you are just coping and seeking confirmation bias to confirm that fasting is bad.

What? Don't you find the Times of India a credible source?

Starving to heal in Siberia

A short book review

open.substack.com

This poor girl is healed from chronic Lyme's disease since 2017 thanks to stress and estrogen.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“There are different kinds of weight gain. When a person's metabolic rate increases, and stress hormones decrease, for example when adding two quarts of milk to the daily diet, their muscle mass is likely to increase, even while their fat is decreasing. Since muscle burns fat faster than fat does, caloric requirements will gradually increase." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“Protein deficiency creates an inflammatory state, and since stress causes tissue proteins to be destroyed and converted into sugars and fats, it's common to underestimate the amount of protein needed. One of the functions of sucrose in the diet is to reduce the production of cortisol, and so to spare protein."-Ray Peat

 

[MikeyFitz]

“Protein deficiency creates an inflammatory state, and since stress causes tissue proteins to be destroyed and converted into sugars and fats, it's common to underestimate the amount of protein needed. One of the functions of sucrose in the diet is to reduce the production of cortisol, and so to spare protein."-Ray Peat

Perfect quote, R&R!

I am so grateful for that guidance and knowledge that Ray gave to all of us.

That simple statement should be a Commandment taught in medical schools.

 

[MikeyFitz]

What? Don't you find the Times of India a credible source?

Starving to heal in Siberia

A short book review

open.substack.com

This poor girl is healed from chronic Lyme's disease since 2017 thanks to stress and estrogen.

Sometimes eliminating the harmful stuff is better than adding good things.

Farmers add a very tiny bit of rat poison to corn to kill the rats.

So it's not the corn that kills the rats....it's that tiny bit of poison.

So if rats ceased eating altogether in order to get well, that's better than them saying "Well I better keep eating that poison corn because fasting is not optimal."


When someone is suffering horribly and they eliminate all foods to avoid what is harming them until they figure it out, that's a good thing.

When a person is suffering from Lyme disease, the whole body can be inflamed, so avoiding food altogether and adding in one food at a time could be wise.

I've seen people eat just meat and get well.

I've also seen people get well from fasting because they were so loaded with endotoxin from eating poorly cooked starches and veggies.

So it's not the fasting as a lifestyle or a practice that is GOOD for us.

It's the avoidance of foods that are harming us that is the medicine.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

.

Perfect quote, R&R!

I am so grateful for that guidance and knowledge that Ray gave to all of us.

That simple statement should be a Commandment taught in medical schools.

It all makes sense now doesn’t it!

 

[MikeyFitz]

.

It all makes sense now doesn’t it!

YES!

And isn't a high-carb lifestyle so tasty?

When I have sweet ripe fruit, gelatin, and ice cream, and then wake up skinnier the next day, I lam so grateful.

All of those poor people who are suffering by depriving themselves.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

YES!

And isn't a high-carb lifestyle so tasty?

When I have sweet ripe fruit, gelatin, and ice cream, and then wake up skinnier the next day, I lam so grateful.

All of those poor people who are suffering by depriving themselves.

This made me chuckle Mikey, because I feel the same way! My diet is no diet! I just avoid rancid oils and chemicals and bottom of the barrel dairy and meats, poor me!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Haidut posted….

“During fasting, fat tissue provides energy to the rest of the body by releasing fatty acid molecules. However, the researchers found visceral fat became resistant to this release of fatty acids during fasting. There were also signs that visceral and subcutaneous fat increased their ability to store energy as fat, likely to rapidly rebuild the fat store before the next fasting period. Dr Larance said it was possible that a history of repeated fasting periods triggered a preservation signalling pathway in visceral fat. "This suggests the visceral fat can adapt to repeated fasting bouts and protect its energy store," he said. "This type of adaptation may be the reason why visceral fat can be resistant to weight loss after long periods of dieting."”

Fasting ineffective for shrinking belly fat, may actually increase it

Hopefully, this study will give some serious food for thought to people who use (intermittent) fasting (IF) with the goal of losing excess weight. A recent post of mine discussed that IF is ineffective for fat loss and actually leads to loss of lean mass. The lead author of that study, himself...

raypeatforum.com

 

[MikeyFitz]

This made me chuckle Mikey, because I feel the same way! My diet is no diet! I just avoid rancid oils and chemicals and bottom of the barrel dairy and meats, poor me!

HAHA!

I'm glad that brought you some joy!


As I eat some cooked apples with organic sugar and ceylon cinnamon on top of homemade vanilla ice cream, I will think of you and smile.


How could anyone prefer fasting to that?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

HAHA!

I'm glad that brought you some joy!


As I eat some cooked apples with organic sugar and ceylon cinnamon on top of homemade vanilla ice cream, I will think of you and smile.


How could anyone prefer fasting to that?

I like my sauteed apples with grass fed beef sausages and maple syrup. Pairing foods right is my strategy, protein + sugar.

 

[MikeyFitz]

I like my sauteed apples with grass fed beef sausages and maple syrup. Pairing foods right is my strategy, protein + sugar.

View attachment 59469

OMG!!!!

That looks amazing!!!!

Perfect for the winter too!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

OMG!!!!

That looks amazing!!!!

Perfect for the winter too!

I knew that one would get you!

 

[LLight]

@MikeyFitz
I've heard about this explanation quite a few times here but with all due respect it doesn't make sense with the testimonies (not only hers).

She's been better since 2017 and her book has been published in november 2022 if I remember correctly. She says she has fasted regularly since but according to your theory, her disease must have relapsed as soon as (or soon after) she restarted food, but it's not the case.

My theory is that it helped her detox something polluting her body or it helped restart her metabolism. The "it must be a stress reaction which gives her energy and/or has an anti-inflammatory effect, or she stopped eating bad thing/endotoxins, whatever" explanation is IMO not consistent with the prolonged effect that she experienced.

PS: two interesting excerpts from her book:

In the winter of 2018, Isabella, an Italian patient suffering from chronic Epstein-Barr, came to Kaliningrad with me to Dr. Filonov’s pop-up clinic on the banks of the icy Baltic Sea. She had been bedridden on and off for years. She was eager to try the method that healed me; this year she was out skiing again on the Italian slopes, and we just had a celebratory reunion in Rome to toast our renewed health.

Spiritual epiphanies bubble into my thoughts while I dry fast, prompting me to feel as if I have a direct line to the etheric realm; I thought it might be because I had meditated for so many years. Thus, I didn’t mention it to the Lyme, mold, and Epstein-Barr patients I coached this year. I created individualized protocols for them before they embarked on lengthy dry fasts, but I didn’t think to mention, “Oh, by the way, you might have a spiritual awakening during the dry fasting.” To my astonishment, every one of them came to me in awe of the spiritual experiences they had. They would ask tentatively, “Is there a spiritual side to this?” The resounding answer is yes. Working in conjunction with one another, the body, mind, and spirit incinerate anxiety and stress, just as they destroy diseased cells. While you are literally starving, spiritual nutrition feeds you and strengthens your resolve.

I didn't have the chance to experience those "spiritual side effects" during my fast but this is something that I would like to reproduce myself.

 

[MikeyFitz]

@MikeyFitz
I've heard about this explanation quite a few times here but with all due respect it doesn't make sense with the testimonies (not only hers).

She's been better since 2017 and her book has been published in november 2022 if I remember correctly. She says she has fasted regularly since but according to your theory, her disease must have relapsed as soon as (or soon after) she restarted food, but it's not the case.

My theory is that it helped her detox something polluting her body or it helped restart her metabolism. The "it must be a stress reaction which gives her energy and/or has an anti-inflammatory effect, or she stopped eating bad thing/endotoxins, whatever" explanation is IMO not consistent with the prolonged effect that she experienced.

PS: two interesting excerpts from her book:



I didn't have the chance to experience those "spiritual side effects" during my fast but this is something that I would like to reproduce myself.

When did I say "her disease would relapse" just because she started eating again?

That's ridiculous. She would die if she just fasted forever.

So of course she would have to start eating again.

My point is the same as Ray's.

All of the benefits of fasting appear to come from avoiding bad things and preventing endotoxin.

By the way, as a native Italian, she probably eats a diet loaded with anti-nutrients such as tomatoes, eggplant, etc.

I know many older Italians who have seen tremendous benefits from eliminating those foods from their lifestyle.

Fasting isn't magic. It's not eating.

If benefits are seen from not eating when eating is required for life, then something is not right with what is being eaten.

Food should not be a poison that the body needs to "battle through."

The body should be improved after a meal, not made less than it was before.

This whole fasting model goes along with the sick philosophy that says "your body is trying to kill you."

Not eating is antithetical to a high energy, muscular body and sound mind.

Avoiding poison is good.

Not eating for extended periods is bad.

So just select non-toxic foods.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

When did I say "her disease would relapse" just because she started eating again?

That's ridiculous. She would die if she just fasted forever.

So of course she would have to start eating again.

My point is the same as Ray's.

All of the benefits of fasting appear to come from avoiding bad things and preventing endotoxin.

By the way, as a native Italian, she probably eats a diet loaded with anti-nutrients such as tomatoes, eggplant, etc.

I know many older Italians who have seen tremendous benefits from eliminating those foods from their lifestyle.

Fasting isn't magic. It's not eating.

If benefits are seen from not eating when eating is required for life, then something is not right with what is being eaten.

Food should not be a poison that the body needs to "battle through."

The body should be improved after a meal, not made less than it was before.

This whole fasting model goes along with the sick philosophy that says "your body is trying to kill you."

Not eating is antithetical to a high energy, muscular body and sound mind.

Avoiding poison is good.

Not eating for extended periods is bad.

So just select non-toxic foods.

“Just select non-toxic foods” sounds like a first best course to me. I tried fasting one time and my legs were so weak I could barely get out of bed on the fourth day. With that being said my father fasted for 28 days with only water, and obviously lost a lot of weight, but it really aged his face. It did cure the Montazuma’s Revenge he had contracted in Mexico though a decade earlier. So I can see fasting being beneficial for a cure, but not for healing the thyroid and revving up one’s metabolism and for long term weight loss. My father pretty quickly gained all that weight he lost back on, and then some.

 

[LLight]

When did I say "her disease would relapse" just because she started eating again?

It's a logical consequence of saying that eating bad food is at the root of her disease. Or maybe are you suggesting that fasting could protect you against bad food and endotoxins even if you fast 5% of the time versus eating bad food 95% of the time?

All of the benefits of fasting appear to come from avoiding bad things and preventing endotoxin.

It's an hypothesis among other Peatarians' folklore. Yes avoiding bad things is better than eating them (by definition) but she is not specifically eating bad things nor has she changed the way she eats after her fasts, as far as we know.

By the way, as a native Italian, she probably eats a diet loaded with anti-nutrients such as tomatoes, eggplant, etc.

I know many older Italians who have seen tremendous benefits from eliminating those foods from their lifestyle.

The lady writing the book (and having cured Lyme's disease) is American. She is mentioning the case of an Italian lady having been cured by fasting and she doesn't say this lady has changed her diet (I'm not saying that's what you said but we can rule this hypothesis out a priori).

Fasting isn't magic. It's not eating.

We surely do not know everything about fasting, but that's not a reason to attribute all of its effects to one hypothetical mechanism (avoiding toxins for as long as fasting lasts).

If benefits are seen from not eating when eating is required for life, then something is not right with what is being eaten.

We could conclude that if we knew without doubt that all fasting does is toxins avoidance.

Food should not be a poison that the body needs to "battle through."

Yes.

The body should be improved after a meal, not made less than it was before.

Indeed, but that does not necessarily contradict the fact that stopping to eat (even "good" food) could have even better effects in the long term (think improved intestinal permeability for example, an hypothesis).

This whole fasting model goes along with the sick philosophy that says "your body is trying to kill you."

Not sure of that. Fasting animals probably haven't thought about this philosophy (that I didn't know before you mentioned it).

Not eating is antithetical to a high energy, muscular body and sound mind.

Not what she found out when she was bedridden and was considering assisted suicide, and she then could do intellectual work and physical activity again after her fasts.

Avoiding poison is good.

Yes.

Not eating for extended periods is bad.

"Extended" is to be defined. You sure die if you don't eat/drink for a sufficient time.

So just select non-toxic foods.

I'm not sure this forum would need to exist if it was so simple.

 

[MikeyFitz]

It's a logical consequence of saying that eating bad food is at the root of her disease. Or maybe are you suggesting that fasting could protect you against bad food and endotoxins even if you fast 5% of the time versus eating bad food 95% of the time?


It's an hypothesis among other Peatarians' folklore. Yes avoiding bad things is better than eating them (by definition) but she is not specifically eating bad things nor has she changed the way she eats after her fasts, as far as we know.


The lady writing the book (and having cured Lyme's disease) is American. She is mentioning the case of an Italian lady having been cured by fasting and she doesn't say this lady has changed her diet (I'm not saying that's what you said but we can rule this hypothesis out a priori).


We surely do not know everything about fasting, but that's not a reason to attribute all of its effects to one hypothetical mechanism (avoiding toxins for as long as fasting lasts).


We could conclude that if we knew without doubt that all fasting does is toxins avoidance.


Yes.


Indeed, but that does not necessarily contradict the fact that stopping to eat (even "good" food) could have even better effects in the long term (think improved intestinal permeability for example, an hypothesis).


Not sure of that. Fasting animals probably haven't thought about this philosophy (that I didn't know before you mentioned it).


Not what she found out when she was bedridden and was considering assisted suicide, and she then could do intellectual work and physical activity again after her fasts.


Yes.


"Extended" is to be defined. You sure die if you don't eat/drink for a sufficient time.


I'm not sure this forum would need to exist if it was so simple.

It's a logical fallacy to state that not eating good food is better than eating good food.

"Good" being defined as nutritious with no toxins or negative side effects.

Studies on fasting are numerous, but the controls in such studies are virtually impossible to nail down as

It's a logical consequence of saying that eating bad food is at the root of her disease. Or maybe are you suggesting that fasting could protect you against bad food and endotoxins even if you fast 5% of the time versus eating bad food 95% of the time?


It's an hypothesis among other Peatarians' folklore. Yes avoiding bad things is better than eating them (by definition) but she is not specifically eating bad things nor has she changed the way she eats after her fasts, as far as we know.


The lady writing the book (and having cured Lyme's disease) is American. She is mentioning the case of an Italian lady having been cured by fasting and she doesn't say this lady has changed her diet (I'm not saying that's what you said but we can rule this hypothesis out a priori).


We surely do not know everything about fasting, but that's not a reason to attribute all of its effects to one hypothetical mechanism (avoiding toxins for as long as fasting lasts).


We could conclude that if we knew without doubt that all fasting does is toxins avoidance.


Yes.


Indeed, but that does not necessarily contradict the fact that stopping to eat (even "good" food) could have even better effects in the long term (think improved intestinal permeability for example, an hypothesis).


Not sure of that. Fasting animals probably haven't thought about this philosophy (that I didn't know before you mentioned it).


Not what she found out when she was bedridden and was considering assisted suicide, and she then could do intellectual work and physical activity again after her fasts.


Yes.


"Extended" is to be defined. You sure die if you don't eat/drink for a sufficient time.


I'm not sure this forum would need to exist if it was so simple.

I am glad the person in your example felt better and got good results from fasting, but it doesn't mean that it was due to fact that they avoided food altogether.

It was most likely just harm avoidance.

Many miss the overall scope of the fasting discussion as well as the facts about endotoxin.

Any food could produce endotoxin in the gut depending on the overall condition of the person eating the food, how well the food was cooked, etc.

So what is the context?

Simply making a statement that fasting (not eating) is good or it's bad or has some mysterious magical benefits is not helpful.

An example was provided in your post of someone who was sick and how they received benefits from avoiding food for certain periods of time.

That is not a scientific analysis.

What foods were avoided? For how long? What is the age of the subject? What diseases do they have?

Again, what is the context?

People who are big promoters of fasting deny that it has any negative side-effects, even though there are numerous studies that show fasting lowers the metabolism, causes lean muscle tissue loss, raises cortisol, interferes with sleep, etc.

Even social media influencers who promote fasting have admitted having negative impacts to their health, even though they don't admit that it was the fasting that did it.

Thomas Delauer, a big YouTuber who promotes fasting and low carb, has big dark circles under his eyes and admits that has had big issues with sleep for years

He even works out fasted which is the double whammy of stress creation.

An older person who has a lot of health issues and is loaded with toxins could receive benefits from just ceasing eating anything at all.

A young person who is fit, healthy, and high energy could feel awful from not eating for just a couple of hours.

Again, what is the context?

To just say "fasting is good for you" or "nobody knows why" doesn't help us.

There are too many studies showing that fasting has numerous negative side effects for us to just throw our hands up and say "we don't know why, but some people feel better when they fast."

"Feeling good" could easily be explained away by the "fight/flight" hormones that are excreted during fasting.

So let's figure it out together.

I don't have a stake in the outcome.

I am a "resultist" so whichever way works best for me is what I will practice.

All I know is that I am receiving very good results from not fasting and just avoiding harmful foods that have anti-nutrients and produce endotoxin.