Is Estrogen Really Needed For Fat Loss?

Broken man

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@JKX its just misleading since Testosteron is not needed in the first place. Moreover i could also do a study, blocking ALL Androgens and give myostatine Blocker and them say "look, Androgens are not required for muscle build". This study is nice ti know second effects but not in manner how the title says.

Estrogen is not needed? Tell it the Men who have genetic defect an Aromatase: they are tall, have mpb, their bones never Developed over the age of 14 (therefore they break easy) they tend to have lipid Problems, Insulinresistenz etc. Fits btw perfect to male who mpb. Estrogen is essential, there is no discuss in serious science about it.

Prolactin is a AI, its a loop. High Estrogen and high Prolactin do not go Hand in hand. Blocking Aromatase btw doesnt lower Prolactin in breast cancer. Often claimed, never proven.
Man you are beast, wish you good luck :D :D both of you
 

Broken man

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@JKX its just misleading since Testosteron is not needed in the first place. Moreover i could also do a study, blocking ALL Androgens and give myostatine Blocker and them say "look, Androgens are not required for muscle build". This study is nice ti know second effects but not in manner how the title says.

Estrogen is not needed? Tell it the Men who have genetic defect an Aromatase: they are tall, have mpb, their bones never Developed over the age of 14 (therefore they break easy) they tend to have lipid Problems, Insulinresistenz etc. Fits btw perfect to male who mpb. Estrogen is essential, there is no discuss in serious science about it.

Prolactin is a AI, its a loop. High Estrogen and high Prolactin do not go Hand in hand. Blocking Aromatase btw doesnt lower Prolactin in breast cancer. Often claimed, never proven.
Aromatase deficiency is not normal condition and low estrogen is another thing, look on study I posted, it contains other where they studied mice without androgen receptors.
 

Shman Frontal

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@JKX Myostastin is for sure, and not a theory. Left with, and right without Myostatin. In Germany there i a case of a child with this gen defect. But doesnt matter, you know that I took it for example, and not to drift away from the certain point.

The Only Scenario which Estrogen rises "unguilty" is Shock and Injury. If it is high because sombebody is deficient in B1 or B2 than Estrogen is not Blame. Therefore is senseless to block Aromatase since it doesnt adress the real cause.

Men with higher Estrogen have longer telemorase and stronger Bones..

Im not sure citing a genetic disease supports your position on estrogen in a healthy individual?

It does because its a "clean aromatase inhibitor". Since this forum hits the Argumentation until it fits the Dogma, AI is oft argued that i wont block all Estrogen or just certain ones and damages the liver and so on, therefore the Genetic Defect is perfect for this. Lack of Estrogen make weak bones, Estrogen definitly not the Cause of mpb. Thats for sure.


Show me that sources for elevated tissue prolactin and estrogen pls

Progesteron is still a Prohormone and affect all Hormones, even Testosteron and Cortisol. Women have high Progesteron and high Estrogen. Doesnt seem to work that well but okay.
 

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b555

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3x times than the max Range? Way too much. This os btw not why im talking about. Prolactin for example is a potent AI, i really do not know where all this too much Estrogen comes from, especially in Context to mpb.

Nope. Its perfect, i stopped chasing numbers. .my joints feel way better. Literally everything improved when i stopped my AI and let my estrogen rise
 

Broken man

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@JKX Myostastin is for sure, and not a theory. Left with, and right without Myostatin. In Germany there i a case of a child with this gen defect. But doesnt matter, you know that I took it for example, and not to drift away from the certain point.

The Only Scenario which Estrogen rises "unguilty" is Shock and Injury. If it is high because sombebody is deficient in B1 or B2 than Estrogen is not Blame. Therefore is senseless to block Aromatase since it doesnt adress the real cause.

Men with higher Estrogen have longer telemorase and stronger Bones..

Im not sure citing a genetic disease supports your position on estrogen in a healthy individual?

It does because its a "clean aromatase inhibitor". Since this forum hits the Argumentation until it fits the Dogma, AI is oft argued that i wont block all Estrogen or just certain ones and damages the liver and so on, therefore the Genetic Defect is perfect for this. Lack of Estrogen make weak bones, Estrogen definitly not the Cause of mpb. Thats for sure.


Show me that sources for elevated tissue prolactin and estrogen pls

Progesteron is still a Prohormone and affect all Hormones, even Testosteron and Cortisol. Women have high Progesteron and high Estrogen. Doesnt seem to work that well but okay.
Aromatase and estrogen is needed for development when puberty hits. That is for sure. Show me study for estrogen and strong Bones pls, I know that you will find androgens needed for bone mineral density.
 

Jessie

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nope everything else is good, thyroid is good, temps, pulse. Energy is great

My prolactin is good, but was always good , didn’t matter if i was taking an AI or not
Well I wasn't exactly implying that's you're problem, but this does happen from time to time.

Also thyroid screens usually aren't very accurate. I had to talk my doctor into just including serum T4, T3, and rT3 on my tests, which still isn't the gold standard. Temps and pulse is much better, particularly when using them in tandem with a full blood screening. However even those can be unreliable as cortisol and adrenaline can give raise temps and pulse. IIRC, Ray mentioned the only way to know how well the thyroid is functioning is to have some sort of CO2 test done, but I forgot what the test was called.
 

JKX

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@JKX Myostastin is for sure, and not a theory. Left with, and right without Myostatin. In Germany there i a case of a child with this gen defect. But doesnt matter, you know that I took it for example, and not to drift away from the certain point.

The Only Scenario which Estrogen rises "unguilty" is Shock and Injury. If it is high because sombebody is deficient in B1 or B2 than Estrogen is not Blame. Therefore is senseless to block Aromatase since it doesnt adress the real cause.

Men with higher Estrogen have longer telemorase and stronger Bones..

Im not sure citing a genetic disease supports your position on estrogen in a healthy individual?

It does because its a "clean aromatase inhibitor". Since this forum hits the Argumentation until it fits the Dogma, AI is oft argued that i wont block all Estrogen or just certain ones and damages the liver and so on, therefore the Genetic Defect is perfect for this. Lack of Estrogen make weak bones, Estrogen definitly not the Cause of mpb. Thats for sure.


Show me that sources for elevated tissue prolactin and estrogen pls

Progesteron is still a Prohormone and affect all Hormones, even Testosteron and Cortisol. Women have high Progesteron and high Estrogen. Doesnt seem to work that well but okay.

Enjoying the back and forth!
The study I posted on myostatin was in aged humans. Not mice. I'm biased towards the human results Im afraid! I have a sneaky suspicion myostatin activity would vary in response to DHEA levels, but just a thought. I'll see if I can find anything more than my thoughts to back this up!

Ray would dispute your estrogen and bone statement!!
Osteoporosis, aging, tissue renewal, and product science

Estrogen levels increase with age too! As does the incidence of a vast array of disease including osteoporosis. How many well fed kids do you know with this disease.

Its late here and Im off to bed. Hopefully pick this up tomorrow.
 

Shman Frontal

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@b555 as long you haven't any other deficiencies than go for it. But i'm pretty sure that a way lower Estrogen would be sufficient. are you male or female?

@Broken man
Aromatase and estrogen is needed for development when puberty hits. That is for sure. Show me study for estrogen and strong Bones pls, I know that you will find androgens needed for bone mineral density.

For what? As i said earlier Males with Aromatase Gene Defect grow up tall, but their bone density is on a child level. These men have normal Testosterone and DHT levels. Its clear, that without Estrogen your bones wont get strengthen as they should. Moreover Postmenopausal women often have higher Testosteron than non menopause women, but their bones are still weaker. Estrogen is essential as i said.

@JKX

Enjoying the back and forth!
The study I posted on myostatin was in aged humans. Not mice. I'm biased towards the human results Im afraid! I have a sneaky suspicion myostatin activity would vary in response to DHEA levels, but just a thought. I'll see if I can find anything more than my thoughts to back this up!

This is drifting away from the topic, therefore my last words to it: Myostatin is a regulator of Muscle grwoth. It protects us from endless muscle grow. In pure nature that would kill us since it cost a lot of energy and nutrient. Nowadays,where food supply is almost always guaranteed, this Gen doesn't make any longer that sense. So its absolute logical that old subject have lower myostatin, they are not able to build muscle in the first place, therefore there no need to block. Women do have a genetic lower muslce maximum, their mysostatin blocks earlier. Is that simple, there some infos about the german kid Genetic mutationturns tot into superboy

Estrogen levels increase with age too! As does the incidence of a vast array of disease including osteoporosis. How many well fed kids do you know with this disease.

Where is the evidence for that claim? I hear it all the time "men's estrogen rises with age na na na ". I couldn't find enough evidence for this, especially if we let Obesity beside. Moreover, the measurement of Estrogen is often false high since Estrogen has over 100 (and not 30) Metabolites. I don't know where all this bad Estrogen is come from when your liver does function properly. Its a mystery.
 

Broken man

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@b555 as long you haven't any other deficiencies than go for it. But i'm pretty sure that a way lower Estrogen would be sufficient. are you male or female?

@Broken man
Aromatase and estrogen is needed for development when puberty hits. That is for sure. Show me study for estrogen and strong Bones pls, I know that you will find androgens needed for bone mineral density.

For what? As i said earlier Males with Aromatase Gene Defect grow up tall, but their bone density is on a child level. These men have normal Testosterone and DHT levels. Its clear, that without Estrogen your bones wont get strengthen as they should. Moreover Postmenopausal women often have higher Testosteron than non menopause women, but their bones are still weaker. Estrogen is essential as i said.

@JKX

Enjoying the back and forth!
The study I posted on myostatin was in aged humans. Not mice. I'm biased towards the human results Im afraid! I have a sneaky suspicion myostatin activity would vary in response to DHEA levels, but just a thought. I'll see if I can find anything more than my thoughts to back this up!

This is drifting away from the topic, therefore my last words to it: Myostatin is a regulator of Muscle grwoth. It protects us from endless muscle grow. In pure nature that would kill us since it cost a lot of energy and nutrient. Nowadays,where food supply is almost always guaranteed, this Gen doesn't make any longer that sense. So its absolute logical that old subject have lower myostatin, they are not able to build muscle in the first place, therefore there no need to block. Women do have a genetic lower muslce maximum, their mysostatin blocks earlier. Is that simple, there some infos about the german kid Genetic mutationturns tot into superboy

Estrogen levels increase with age too! As does the incidence of a vast array of disease including osteoporosis. How many well fed kids do you know with this disease.

Where is the evidence for that claim? I hear it all the time "men's estrogen rises with age na na na ". I couldn't find enough evidence for this, especially if we let Obesity beside. Moreover, the measurement of Estrogen is often false high since Estrogen has over 100 (and not 30) Metabolites. I don't know where all this bad Estrogen is come from when your liver does function properly. Its a mystery.
I have high estrogen and had cyst within my bone, talked with my endocrinologist, She told me that most men after 40 years old have estrogen higher than mid of the range.
 

b555

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@Shman Frontal “@b555 as long you haven't any other deficiencies than go for it. But i'm pretty sure that a way lower Estrogen would be sufficient. are you male or female?”
Male, what would you suggest then? Im willing to try something new
 

Broken man

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@Shman Frontal also I dont think that aromatase deficiency is good model for studying estrogen effect on Bones. I think we can say that obesity is better model. I searched some studies and its not clear but fat mass is not good for bones for sure and fat means higher estrogen.
 

JKX

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@b555 as long you haven't any other deficiencies than go for it. But i'm pretty sure that a way lower Estrogen would be sufficient. are you male or female?

@Broken man
Aromatase and estrogen is needed for development when puberty hits. That is for sure. Show me study for estrogen and strong Bones pls, I know that you will find androgens needed for bone mineral density.

For what? As i said earlier Males with Aromatase Gene Defect grow up tall, but their bone density is on a child level. These men have normal Testosterone and DHT levels. Its clear, that without Estrogen your bones wont get strengthen as they should. Moreover Postmenopausal women often have higher Testosteron than non menopause women, but their bones are still weaker. Estrogen is essential as i said.

@JKX

Enjoying the back and forth!
The study I posted on myostatin was in aged humans. Not mice. I'm biased towards the human results Im afraid! I have a sneaky suspicion myostatin activity would vary in response to DHEA levels, but just a thought. I'll see if I can find anything more than my thoughts to back this up!

This is drifting away from the topic, therefore my last words to it: Myostatin is a regulator of Muscle grwoth. It protects us from endless muscle grow. In pure nature that would kill us since it cost a lot of energy and nutrient. Nowadays,where food supply is almost always guaranteed, this Gen doesn't make any longer that sense. So its absolute logical that old subject have lower myostatin, they are not able to build muscle in the first place, therefore there no need to block. Women do have a genetic lower muslce maximum, their mysostatin blocks earlier. Is that simple, there some infos about the german kid Genetic mutationturns tot into superboy

Estrogen levels increase with age too! As does the incidence of a vast array of disease including osteoporosis. How many well fed kids do you know with this disease.

Where is the evidence for that claim? I hear it all the time "men's estrogen rises with age na na na ". I couldn't find enough evidence for this, especially if we let Obesity beside. Moreover, the measurement of Estrogen is often false high since Estrogen has over 100 (and not 30) Metabolites. I don't know where all this bad Estrogen is come from when your liver does function properly. Its a mystery.
Tissue-bound estrogen in aging
Aging, estrogen, and progesterone
Natural Estrogens
estradiol – To Extract Knowledge from Matter
Simple, non-invasive test for adrogenic / estrogenic tone – To Extract Knowledge from Matter
Pregnenolone (P5) – a new osteoporosis drug – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

I think your last statement says it all...'when your liver functions properly'.
 

Shman Frontal

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@JKX i dont need extra sources for the fact that excess estrogen is a problem, as said several times, the Question is how much do we need to stay healthy ? When a young guy like me has perfect working liver, why we still debating on lower estrogen ? Aromatase gets blocked by Prolactin, Nicotine, coffee, apirin, ibuprofen and Glyphosate What does a young guy do when his liver works fine but he blocks u his Aromatase all the time? Suffering from bad bones, teeth, Gi issues (h.Pylori fe) and mpb? Why this Forum claims that Peeple suffer only from too high Estrogen? Where is the evidence for that? Several Studies confirmed that Estrogen lowers with age, some say no difference and only 1 says estrogen rises. Beside the fact that die measurement of Estrogen is often false high this is too huge to ignore.
 

JKX

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If you are young and healthy why were you trying to lower estrogen in the first place?

Could you point me in the direction of the studies which support estrogen lowering with age?
 

Shman Frontal

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No no, i havent lower it in purpose, it just happend. Im lean, have drank all my life a lot of coffee and smoke mildly. at mid 20 my Problems started and i measure Estrogen, it was clinical deficient (not detectable/ Under 10pg/ml). All my problems resolved (and maybe even my hair loss) by don't blocking aromatase through food and lifestyle. It helped me. How many others out there maybe have the same problem, but will never heal from because the dogma says it s always too much ? Seems everybody has to figure out by themselves. I just can help to look at it sober.

Chapter 24: Estrogens and Body Weight Regulation in Men its review with all studies as mentioned. Men likely do have low and no to much estrogen, especially because the measurement seem to be false in most case (up to 10 times false high!). But this is just my point of view. Make your own
 

b555

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What does that mean how much estrogen is good ? Most of the healthiest men i seen usually have e2 between 25-55
 

baccheion

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I feel way better with high estradiol... i am leaner than ever, yet my e2 is 3x over range.
Taking an ai was a bad idea for me
What's the testosterone:estradiol ratio, something more telling? What about cortisol and free T?

So much aromatisation should be telling you there's some underlying issue resulting in a need for TRT. If it was just hypogonadism due to a physical issue, aromatisation wouldn't be so high. That is, it'd be true replacement.

What does that mean how much estrogen is good ? Most of the healthiest men i seen usually have e2 between 25-55

The ideal is estradiol at 28 pg/mL with testosterone at the top of the range (1197 ng/dL).
 

b555

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What's the testosterone:estradiol ratio, something more telling? What about cortisol and free T?

So much aromatisation should be telling you there's some underlying issue resulting in a need for TRT. If it was just hypogonadism due to a physical issue, aromatisation wouldn't be so high. That is, it'd be true replacement.



The ideal is estradiol at 28 pg/mL with testosterone at the top of the range (1197 ng/dL).
WhatS the ideal free t?
 

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