Obesity is estrogen-driven; Chronic fasting burns mostly muscle, not fat

[LLight]

It's a logical fallacy to state that not eating good food is better than eating good food.

"Good" being defined as nutritious with no toxins or negative side effects.

It's not a logical fallacy at all. I even gave you an hypothetical effect of fasting that could lead to such a situation (fasting improving intestinal permeability).
And you've yet to explain how fasting could help/protect against endotoxins or other toxins when it's practiced like less than 5% of the time for example.

I am glad the person in your example felt better and got good results from fasting, but it doesn't mean that it was due to fact that they avoided food altogether.

She went from bedridden to completely fine, and it was just luck, as other cases mentioned. That is medecine level of denial.

It was most likely just harm avoidance.

Back to point number 1.

Many miss the overall scope of the fasting discussion as well as the facts about endotoxin.

I'm aware of endotoxins but there is no logical connection with the case in question, not in the way you seem to explain it anyway. Maybe her intestines is less porous to endotoxins after her fast, maybe the liver healed and she is able to detox better now.

Any food could produce endotoxin in the gut depending on the overall condition of the person eating the food, how well the food was cooked, etc.

So what is the context?

Haaaa, the famous "context", misunderstood by people not having seen the light. I could say that studying water fasting and projecting the results to other forms of fasting (especially dry fasting, which is the way people generally fast in religions, or to reach special state of conciousness) would quite miss the context!

Simply making a statement that fasting (not eating) is good or it's bad or has some mysterious magical benefits is not helpful.

Indeed, but that's not what people are saying. I wouldn't advise dry fasting to an old people dying or to a new born of course, but it's a tool that can be helpful to some. Again, saying that we don't necessarily understand all the mechanisms of fasting is not invoking magic power.

An example was provided in your post of someone who was sick and how they received benefits from avoiding food for certain periods of time.

That's the definition of fasting (it was dry fasting for your information).

That is not a scientific analysis.

Scientism.

What foods were avoided? For how long? What is the age of the subject? What diseases do they have?

Again, what is the context?

The context is very simple. She was almost dying and got her life back by doing prolonged dry fasts. Think more than 7 days without eating or drinking.
All food were avoided of course. I would say the lady is in her 40's and she had Lyme's disease (what it really means in pratictice is subject to debate).

"Feeling good" could easily be explained away by the "fight/flight" hormones that are excreted during fasting.

No, this does not explain the results in the same way that endotoxins avoidance doesn't explain what benefits she got.

All I know is that I am receiving very good results from not fasting and just avoiding harmful foods that have anti-nutrients and produce endotoxin.

That's cool that you found something that's working for you.

 

[MikeyFitz]

It's not a logical fallacy at all. I even gave you an hypothetical effect of fasting that could lead to such a situation (fasting improving intestinal permeability).
And you've yet to explain how fasting could help/protect against endotoxins or other toxins when it's practiced like less than 5% of the time for example.

It is a logical fallacy.
Here's why.
It's like saying that the rooster causes the sun to come up every morning because the sun comes up after the rooster crows.

You believe fasting caused the cessation of her symptoms because the symptoms stopped when she fasted.
Again, association is not causation.

Eating poorly cooked starches cause extremely high levels of endotoxin to be produced in the gut, even in the guts of very healthy individuals, even when eaten very rarely.

The percentage of time the person eats them or doesn't eat them has nothing to do with it. You eat it, you get endotoxin.
If they eat it more often, then the symptoms could worsen, but one cause of high levels of endotoxin is eating poorly cooked starches.

Therefore, abstaining from eating the poorly cooked starches due to not eating any food at all while fasting, would produce the same effect as just eliminating the poorly cooked starches.

No food at all = no endotoxin.

But it would not be because they stopped eating ALL food.

Cessation of symptoms would be because they stopped eating the undercooked starches that produce high levels of endotoxins.

If that person ate very ripe fruit and some gelatin rather than fasting, they would probably achieve the same cessation of symptoms.

And they would not suffer the negative side effects of fasting.

Understand?

She went from bedridden to completely fine, and it was just luck, as other cases mentioned. That is medecine level of denial.


Back to point number 1.


I'm aware of endotoxins but there is no logical connection with the case in question, not in the way you seem to explain it anyway. Maybe her intestines is less porous to endotoxins after her fast, maybe the liver healed and she is able to detox better now.


Haaaa, the famous "context", misunderstood by people not having seen the light. I could say that studying water fasting and projecting the results to other forms of fasting (especially dry fasting, which is the way people generally fast in religions, or to reach special state of conciousness) would quite miss the context!


Indeed, but that's not what people are saying. I wouldn't advise dry fasting to an old people dying or to a new born of course, but it's a tool that can be helpful to some. Again, saying that we don't necessarily understand all the mechanisms of fasting is not invoking magic power.


That's the definition of fasting (it was dry fasting for your information).


Scientism.


The context is very simple. She was almost dying and got her life back by doing prolonged dry fasts. Think more than 7 days without eating or drinking.
All food were avoided of course. I would say the lady is in her 40's and she had Lyme's disease (what it really means in pratictice is subject to debate).


No, this does not explain the results in the same way that endotoxins avoidance doesn't explain what benefits she got.


That's cool that you found something that's working for you.

 

[Dapose]

This was very similar to my experience in my early 20s. Did you find that it affected your hair?

Somehow I was blessed with amazing hair. I have more hair then I know what to do with in my mid 40’s. Not too grey either!
No it was mainly muscle loss, fatty liver and a stabbing pain in my thyroid that really woke me up.

 

[LLight]

It is a logical fallacy.
Here's why.
It's like saying that the rooster causes the sun to come up every morning because the sun comes up after the rooster crows.

You believe fasting caused the cessation of her symptoms because the symptoms stopped when she fasted.
Again, association is not causation.

You were talking about "mysterious magical benefits" but you are clearly doing that yourself.

I'll explain:
1 - she was ill for several years before fasting, and then she healed in a short period of time. There is a clear temporal correlation between the fast and the healing. For her and other cases that have been healed with help of fasting.
2 - there is some sort of dose-response relationship: she stated she was better with every fast (she has done multiple at the start), indicating that it was the fast that was beneficial.
3 - but in your opinion, that the healing happened during the fast was nothing more than a coincidence (healed by chance at that exact moment, aka magic).

Eating poorly cooked starches cause extremely high levels of endotoxin to be produced in the gut, even in the guts of very healthy individuals, even when eaten very rarely.

The percentage of time the person eats them or doesn't eat them has nothing to do with it. You eat it, you get endotoxin.
If they eat it more often, then the symptoms could worsen, but one cause of high levels of endotoxin is eating poorly cooked starches.

Therefore, abstaining from eating the poorly cooked starches due to not eating any food at all while fasting, would produce the same effect as just eliminating the poorly cooked starches.

Let's me synthesize what you are saying and write what it implies:
1 - when you eat poorly cooked starches (let's pretend the lady is eating them), endotoxins is produced.
2 - that someone is fasting (or not eating them) does not change the fact that he will produce endotoxins when he will eat poorly cooked starches again.
3 - there is a kind of dose-response relationship between endotoxins exposure and symptoms.
4 - you can reproduce fasting effects by just stopping to eat poorly cooked starches.

So given these statements, how is she supposed to be healed if she starts eating poorly cooked starches again after her fasts?
She would be subject to endotoxins and would have symptoms again (points 1 and 2).
That she keeps eating 95% of the time poorly cooked starches should make her just 5% better at best (point 3).
She was then successfully eating poorly cooked starches after having fasted, so she had no need to stop eating poorly cooked starches (think about all the time she saved by undercooking her starches without consequences )

Conclusion: your explanations are not convincing. She should still have symptoms with all the poorly cooked starches she keeps eating, according to you logic.

Cessation of symptoms would be because they stopped eating the undercooked starches that produce high levels of endotoxins.

Have you seen somewhere she changed the way she cooks starches or stopped eating them?

 

[MikeyFitz]

You were talking about "mysterious magical benefits" but you are clearly doing that yourself.

I'll explain:
1 - she was ill for several years before fasting, and then she healed in a short period of time. There is a clear temporal correlation between the fast and the healing. For her and other cases that have been healed with help of fasting.
2 - there is some sort of dose-response relationship: she stated she was better with every fast (she has done multiple at the start), indicating that it was the fast that was beneficial.
3 - but in your opinion, that the healing happened during the fast was nothing more than a coincidence (healed by chance at that exact moment, aka magic).



Let's me synthesize what you are saying and write what it implies:
1 - when you eat poorly cooked starches (let's pretend the lady is eating them), endotoxins is produced.
2 - that someone is fasting (or not eating them) does not change the fact that he will produce endotoxins when he will eat poorly cooked starches again.
3 - there is a kind of dose-response relationship between endotoxins exposure and symptoms.
4 - you can reproduce fasting effects by just stopping to eat poorly cooked starches.

So given these statements, how is she supposed to be healed if she starts eating poorly cooked starches again after her fasts?
She would be subject to endotoxins and would have symptoms again (points 1 and 2).
That she keeps eating 95% of the time poorly cooked starches should make her just 5% better at best (point 3).
She was then successfully eating poorly cooked starches after having fasted, so she had no need to stop eating poorly cooked starches (think about all the time she saved by undercooking her starches without consequences )

Conclusion: your explanations are not convincing. She should still have symptoms with all the poorly cooked starches she keeps eating, according to you logic.


Have you seen somewhere she changed the way she cooks starches or stopped eating them?

not eating anything is not eating the starches

now you're trolling

 

[MikeyFitz]

You were talking about "mysterious magical benefits" but you are clearly doing that yourself.

I'll explain:
1 - she was ill for several years before fasting, and then she healed in a short period of time. There is a clear temporal correlation between the fast and the healing. For her and other cases that have been healed with help of fasting.
2 - there is some sort of dose-response relationship: she stated she was better with every fast (she has done multiple at the start), indicating that it was the fast that was beneficial.
3 - but in your opinion, that the healing happened during the fast was nothing more than a coincidence (healed by chance at that exact moment, aka magic).



Let's me synthesize what you are saying and write what it implies:
1 - when you eat poorly cooked starches (let's pretend the lady is eating them), endotoxins is produced.
2 - that someone is fasting (or not eating them) does not change the fact that he will produce endotoxins when he will eat poorly cooked starches again.
3 - there is a kind of dose-response relationship between endotoxins exposure and symptoms.
4 - you can reproduce fasting effects by just stopping to eat poorly cooked starches.

So given these statements, how is she supposed to be healed if she starts eating poorly cooked starches again after her fasts?
She would be subject to endotoxins and would have symptoms again (points 1 and 2).
That she keeps eating 95% of the time poorly cooked starches should make her just 5% better at best (point 3).
She was then successfully eating poorly cooked starches after having fasted, so she had no need to stop eating poorly cooked starches (think about all the time she saved by undercooking her starches without consequences )

Conclusion: your explanations are not convincing. She should still have symptoms with all the poorly cooked starches she keeps eating, according to you logic.


Have you seen somewhere she changed the way she cooks starches or stopped eating them?

Either you are purposely dancing around the topic or you are truly unable to be scientific about this.

Science is the rigorous testing of a theory in order to prove or disprove that theory.

The theory that fasting helped this person is a good one.

Now let's test it.

We test it by RULING OUT that the results were achieved because of something OTHER than fasting.

How do we do that?

We make a list of everything this person was eating.

Then we eliminate ALL of those things (i.e. fasting...cessation of all food)

Then we reintroduce foods and rigorously track the subject to see if they begin having symptoms again.

Was this process done?

No.

So we do not know whether it was the complete elimination of food (fasting) that caused her to get well.

If foods were reintroduced and bad symptoms were observed, then those foods could have been permanently removed from her lifestyle.

Then another test could have been done.

Once foods that produced bad symptoms were all removed, then we could have seen how she did eating the "good" foods.

That is science.

No guesswork.

Testing and proving.

How do I know this?

Because this is the exact same process that I underwent to eliminate harmful foods and keep the good foods.

Just not eating (fasting) is not the long-term answer because it would produce death.

Fasting is the lazy way that produces short-term benefits but the person never really heals because they never find out what foods were harming them.

 

[LLight]

"There are none so deaf as those who will not listen."

Please stop talking about science, I'm not sure it wants to be associated with you

 

[MikeyFitz]

"There are none so deaf as those who will not listen."

Please stop talking about science, I'm not sure it wants to be associated with you

"The Scientific Method is a process used to VALIDATE observations while minimizing OBSERVER BIAS. Its goal is for research to be conducted in a fair, unbiased and repeatable manner."

Science and I are the best of friends because I actually use the Scientific Method.

You should try it some time.

Instead of being butt hurt and attacking me personally, you should spread the word on how to actually help people.

Stop guessing.

You have formed some very good hypotheses.

Now test them.

 

[LLight]

@MikeyFitz


You still haven't explained how somebody who hasn't changed the way she eats should have gained benefits from changing the way she eats.

Moreover, being helped by fasting or being helped by improving the way someone eats are not mutually exclusive while you seem to oppose them ("you don't need to fast if you eat better foods").

 

[MikeyFitz]

@MikeyFitz


You still haven't explained how somebody who hasn't changed the way she eats should have gained benefits from changing the way she eats.

Moreover, being helped by fasting or being helped by improving the way someone eats are not mutually exclusive while you seem to oppose them ("you don't need to fast if you eat better foods").

"somebody who hasn't changed the way she eats"

That is a false statement.

She has changed the way she eats.

She went from not fasting to fasting.

Which means she didn't abstain from foods before but now goes long periods without eating.

That is a dramatic change in the way she eats.

So now she should test the hypothesis.

I would be glad to help.

 

[LLight]

She has changed the way she eats

You perfectly know what I mean (but that's your stagegy to make us lose more time than we have already): she hasn't changed how she cooks starch (or whatever obsession you have currently) or what she eats.

Your ad hoc hypothesis of "endotoxins avoidance" being adequate with what we are trying to explain requires to abandon basic logic rules.

Finally, she is far from the only case having been helped by fasting (I've posted some testimonies on this forum sometimes and I have more in my notebooks) and whose health benefits is not explained by Peat's mythology. So don't be afraid that what she experienced was by chance (read the book, it's crystal clear it was due to fasting).

I'm going to mute you now so as to be not tempted to lose even more time that I've already. I guess I won't hear neither from your "co-posters" who have gone mute since you've ruined their efforts to make an interesting critic of fasting.

 

[MikeyFitz]

You perfectly know what I mean (but that's your stagegy to make us lose more time than we have already): she hasn't changed how she cooks starch (or whatever obsession you have currently) or what she eats.

Your ad hoc hypothesis of "endotoxins avoidance" being adequate with what we are trying to explain requires to abandon basic logic rules.

Finally, she is far from the only case having been helped by fasting (I've posted some testimonies on this forum sometimes and I have more in my notebooks) and whose health benefits is not explained by Peat's mythology. So don't be afraid that what she experienced was by chance (read the book, it's crystal clear it was due to fasting).

I'm going to mute you now so as to be not tempted to lose even more time that I've already. I guess I won't hear neither from your "co-posters" who have gone mute since you've ruined their efforts to make an interesting critic of fasting.

You are posting on a site called "Ray Peat Forum" yet you call the scientific evidence that he and others have presented "mythology."

Actually, mythology is believing in something metaphysical that you cannot prove scientifically.

That's what your "belief" in fasting is. A belief that is not backed up by science.

I told you that you were onto something with your hypothesis but that you needed to test it. (the foundation of the Scientific Method)

All I recommended that you do is to test your theory....i.e. rule out the foods that could be hurting her.

Rather than working with others on this forum who WANT to discover the truth, you expended a lot of time and emotional energy refusing to do that.

You are convinced that just stopping food altogether is what provided the benefits, not stopping certain foods.

Since you have refused to test your theory, you will never know.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

@Rafael Rao Wai said in this thread linked below

“l so basically he admitted that fasting makes him cold, constipated and lowers his metabolism drastically. He thinks it's fine to live with a very elevated reverse t3. And he's balding pretty hard. Wow, so many benefits to fasting! Incredible!”

Peter Attia Explains Why You Shouldn't Fast

44:25 - 49:50 He explains it perfectly, lol. Funny that after all that he seems to think it's a good idea to do it though...

raypeatforum.com

 

[MikeyFitz]

@Rafael Rao Wai said in this thread linked below

“l so basically he admitted that fasting makes him cold, constipated and lowers his metabolism drastically. He thinks it's fine to live with a very elevated reverse t3. And he's balding pretty hard. Wow, so many benefits to fasting! Incredible!”

Peter Attia Explains Why You Shouldn't Fast

44:25 - 49:50 He explains it perfectly, lol. Funny that after all that he seems to think it's a good idea to do it though...

raypeatforum.com

WOW!

So one of the world renowned "gurus" who advocates fasting admits that it causes negative results?

Isn't not eating a couple hours before bed and then sleeping for 8 hours enough of a break from food?

Then they push a low-carb diet in the brief window when they are actually eating?

No, thank you.

 

[MikeyFitz]

@Rafael Rao Wai said in this thread linked below

“l so basically he admitted that fasting makes him cold, constipated and lowers his metabolism drastically. He thinks it's fine to live with a very elevated reverse t3. And he's balding pretty hard. Wow, so many benefits to fasting! Incredible!”

Peter Attia Explains Why You Shouldn't Fast

44:25 - 49:50 He explains it perfectly, lol. Funny that after all that he seems to think it's a good idea to do it though...

raypeatforum.com

Poor Peter Attia......

 

[LLight]

I had already posted what Michelle B. Slater reported about spiritual experiences during dry fasting:

Spiritual epiphanies bubble into my thoughts while I dry fast, prompting me to feel as if I have a direct line to the etheric realm; I thought it might be because I had meditated for so many years. Thus, I didn’t mention it to the Lyme, mold, and Epstein-Barr patients I coached this year. I created individualized protocols for them before they embarked on lengthy dry fasts, but I didn’t think to mention, “Oh, by the way, you might have a spiritual awakening during the dry fasting.” To my astonishment, every one of them came to me in awe of the spiritual experiences they had. They would ask tentatively, “Is there a spiritual side to this?” The resounding answer is yes. Working in conjunction with one another, the body, mind, and spirit incinerate anxiety and stress, just as they destroy diseased cells. While you are literally starving, spiritual nutrition feeds you and strengthens your resolve.

I have just found a publication posted by @'peataphysique here: Do Entheogen-induced Mystical Experiences Boost The Immune System? Psychedelics, Peak Experiences

Daily events that boost the immune system (as indicated by levels of salivary immunoglobulin A), some instances of spontaneous remission, and mystical experiences seem to share a similar cluster of thoughts, feelings, moods, perceptions, and behaviors. Entheogens--psychedelic drugs used in a religious context--can also produce mystical experiences (peak experiences, states of unitive consciousness, intense primary religious experiences) with the same cluster of effects. When this happens, is it also possible that such entheogen-induced mystical experiences strengthen the immune system? Might spontaneous remissions occur more frequently under such conditions?

I've also seen multiple testimonies of people having spiritual experiences during dry fasts:

It was actually fine on the 14th day even(2nd 4 day dry) I never stretched so much in my life, felt great! Overall quite the spiritual awakening experience. Almost psychedelic at times.

Was absolutely worth it in the end, never felt so light before in my life, not just physically, emotional baggage I wasn't consciously aware of lifted off me with every exhale that night, breath work and meditation felt insanely deep, nourishing and cleansing. Feelings of oneness and an overwhelming calmness made me cry tears of joy when the sun came up. I've not been particularly spiritual before the fast, but now I firmly believe there is a universal consciousness connecting everything in the universe. IBS, restless legs, high blood pressure, insomnia and brain fog got replaced with an immensely positive outlook on life during the 3-4 weeks of carnivore refeed after.

I found out about dry fasting (another ancient practice) a couple of months ago and I started using it alongside my other various health practices. Wow, there’s nothing that has complimented SR benefits more, in fact, it’s as if it turbo boosts effects [...] The spiritual benefits are huge, I always feel lighter, at peace, motivated, in a state of knowing I’m on the right path, connected to my higher self, god, source energy, whatever you want to call it. [...] I’m currently on a 3 day dry fast, breaking it tomorrow to make it a 4 day dry fast which will be the longest I’ve done. I’ve noticed that when I do my breathing exercises and meditation, I feel intense euphoria, oneness and near out of body experiences which is something I’ve never experienced in my life, despite having a spiritual awakening 3 years ago.

 

[MikeyFitz]

I had already posted what Michelle B. Slater reported about spiritual experiences during dry fasting:


I have just found a publication posted by @'peataphysique here: Do Entheogen-induced Mystical Experiences Boost The Immune System? Psychedelics, Peak Experiences



I've also seen multiple testimonies of people having spiritual experiences during dry fasts:

Those sound like amazing benefits.

Did you experience any of those yourself?

You write well.

Did you ever think of writing a book on this?

 

[LLight]

Another one:

By the way, I've begun a book about people having been cured of "terminal" or very agressive cancer "by chance", describing how it seems to be associated to religiosity and the deepening of connection with God.

 

[Alpha]

The science levels in this thread are too high.

 

[LLight]

I just started DF from sun up to sun down during day 5 & 6 of my 7 day water fast and have fallen in love. I am more focused and productive and have no depression and my anxiety is getting better as I find a closer connection to Almighty.