Obesity is estrogen-driven; Chronic fasting burns mostly muscle, not fat

haidut

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I wanted to do a quick post on this, as this topic is one of the most discussed in both medicine and society in general. Namely, whether fasting is a good and healthy approach to weight loss, which is largely determined by whether the weight we lose during fasting is mostly fat or muscle. Even mainstream doctors readily agree that if it is the former then the effects of fasting would be considered beneficial and if it is the latter, the effects of fasting would be devastating since losing muscle mass not only makes one (relatively) fatter (ratio of muscle to fat mass), but also drastically lowers one's resting metabolic rate (RMR) since RMR depends heavily on fat-free muscle mass. So, if chronic fasting results mostly in muscle loss that would make a person not only relatively fatter as a result, but also continue to gain weight on even fewer calories than previously eaten due to their now lower RMR. Well, the study on the Biggest Loser show participants was pretty clear in its findings that this devastating outcome from fasting (and/or "endurance" exercise) is exactly what happens in humans.
If that study was not convincing enough, here is another expert medical opinion below, with an added explanation why fasting may have this negative effect, while also, once again, implicating obesity as an endocrine disorder driven by estrogen.

Why thigh gap is so important to women - Times of India
"And to those willing to do dietary extremes Dr. Thomas shared some bad news, "Starving won't help losing fat from regions like the butt and thigh." Dr. Purwa Duggal says stubborn fat in areas such as abdomen, thighs, hips, butt, etc are linked to high estrogen. Prolonged starvation does not necessarily mean burning fat. It may initially cause muscle wasting or utilisation of glycogen stores. Catecholamines, which are fight or flight hormones produced in the body in response to stress, are required to burn fat. “Blood flow to stubborn fat areas is usually very poor, as a result, the catecholamines are unable to reach the area to mobilise the fat. Even if the fat is mobilised, while it continues to be in the blood stream, it may get re-deposited in the original areas,” she adds. However, both she and macrobiotic nutritionist Shonali Sabherwal agree that a controlled diet — excluding unhealthy fats, processed food and sugars — complimented with focussed exercise, under supervision, may aid in developing the desired muscle tone over time."
 
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Soren

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Another dent in the fasting armour. Do you think that occasional fasting such as one 24 hour period a week would have the same negative effect?

Side note i saw another clip of that Bryan Johnson guy who is trying to slow his aging down he does a lot of things wrong such as constantly being calorie restricted, daily fasting etc however one interesting thing I picked up is that he takes thyroid hormone and aspirin daily might explain how he is able to "get away" with some of the crazy stuff he does.
 

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Muscle wasting can be prevented to a degree by doing moderate resistance training during the fasting. This will signal the body to activate muscle protein synthesis by amino-acid recycling, which would minimize muscle catabolism and so to use more fat storage mainly as energy source to burn.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Do you think that occasional fasting such as one 24 hour period a week would have the same negative effect?

It all depends on endocrine balance and thyroid function. A young, relative healthy person without endocrine abnormalities could probably handle 12-24 hour fasts without much risk. But an 35+ aged, obese person, with cortisol/DHEA ratio above 0.3 (and/or, for males, cortisol/testosterone ratio >15) will probably end up making things a lot worse by fasting and doing any exercise except (mild) concentric training. Obesity is an endocrine disorder, plain and simple, and should be treated as such by changing diet composition and, if needed, addressing hormonal abnormalities. Any attempts to force a person with already compromised health to further stress themselves with fasting/exercise will most likely make things worse. Again, the Biggest Loser study was pretty conclusive in that respect.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Muscle wasting can be prevented to a degree by doing moderate resistance training during the fasting. This will signal the body to activate muscle protein synthesis by amino-acid recycling, which would minimize muscle catabolism and so to use more fat storage mainly as energy source to burn.

Not sure there is much good doing resistance exercise while fasting, since IGF-1/insulin would be low in that period and without them amino acids would go towards gluconeogenesis instead of recycled back into muscle protein synthesis. Also, cortisol rises while fasting and any exertion, even pure concentric exercise, while fasting would drive cortisol even higher. So, unless the person has at least a sweet drink or something, the exercise would make things worse in most cases. Ray suggested drinking a fluid with electrolytes as those inhibit muscle breakdown, but so far the only confirmed anti-catabolic agents I have seen shown to work in humans during fasting are the anabolic/anticatabolic steroids.
 

Nicole W.

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Another dent in the fasting armour. Do you think that occasional fasting such as one 24 hour period a week would have the same negative effect?

Side note i saw another clip of that Bryan Johnson guy who is trying to slow his aging down he does a lot of things wrong such as constantly being calorie restricted, daily fasting etc however one interesting thing I picked up is that he takes thyroid hormone and aspirin daily might explain how he is able to "get away" with some of the crazy stuff he does.
I don’t think the thyroid is doing much if he is taking it at all, he takes his temp every morning and it is extraordinarily low. 96.something if I recall. He seems sincere but horking down all that raw broccoli with raw cacao (no less), must be keeping his thyroid suppressed no matter what he does. Also, his teeth look…not good. Not sure what is going on there but it probably has something to do with his thyroid status. I give him 5 years to either get super super sick or come to his senses and turn this attempt at immortality around.
 

Soren

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It all depends on endocrine balance and thyroid function. A young, relative healthy person without endocrine abnormalities could probably handle 12-24 hour fasts without much risk. But an 35+ aged, obese person, with cortisol/DHEA ratio above 0.3 (and/or, for males, cortisol/testosterone ratio >15) will probably end up making things a lot worse by fasting and doing any exercise except (mild) concentric training. Obesity is an endocrine disorder, plain and simple, and should be treated as such by changing diet composition and, if needed, addressing hormonal abnormalities. Any attempts to force a person with already compromised health to further stress themselves with fasting/exercise will most likely make things worse. Again, the Biggest Loser study was pretty conclusive in that respect.
I could not agree more. Been having a near constant debate with family and friends over fasting this answer is helpful.
 

Soren

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I don’t think the thyroid is doing much if he is taking it at all, he takes his temp every morning and it is extraordinarily low. 96.something if I recall. He seems sincere but horking down all that raw broccoli with raw cacao (no less), must be keeping his thyroid suppressed no matter what he does. Also, his teeth look…not good. Not sure what is going on there but it probably has something to do with his thyroid status. I give him 5 years to either get super super sick or come to his senses and turn this attempt at immortality around.
He already looks extremely unhealthy to me. His skin looks off, lacks colour. Probably due to poor blood flow.
 

DrJ

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Following fireinabottle, it seems it depends on what metabolism mode you're in (torpor or not) but obese people are actually really good at sparing protein in starvation...

 
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haidut

haidut

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Following fireinabottle, it seems it depends on what metabolism mode you're in (torpor or not) but obese people are actually really good at sparing protein in starvation...


Then why did the participants in the Biggest Loser contest, arguably some of the most morbidly obese people around, lost mostly muscle mass through the starvation regimen the show team put them through, and became the dreaded "skinny-fat" phenotype?
 

DrJ

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Then why did the participants in the Biggest Loser contest, arguably some of the most morbidly obese people around, lost mostly muscle mass through the starvation regimen the show team put them through, and became the dreaded "skinny-fat" phenotype?
Ah yes the precisely controlled studies of the Biggest Loser. They say the camera adds a few pounds so maybe it minuses some muscle?
 

Jamsey

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What do you think the optimal(or at least an estimated range) ratio of dht to progesterone is for anticatabolic effects? I assume it would differ between men and women, but wanted to hear your input
 
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then the effects of fasting would be considered beneficial and if it is the latter, the effects of fasting would be devastating since losing muscle mass not only makes one (relatively) fatter (ratio of muscle to fat mass), but also drastically lowers one's resting metabolic rate (RMR) since RMR depends heavily on fat-free muscle mass. So, if chronic fasting results mostly in muscle loss that would make a person not only relatively fatter as a result, but also continue to gain weight on even fewer calories than previously eaten due to their now lower RMR. Well, the study on the Biggest Loser show participants was pretty clear in its findings that this devastating outcome from fasting (and/or "endurance" exercise) is exactly what happens in humans.
You end up skinny fat, with no muscle tone and skin that jiggles. I have been there…

 

BobbyJackson

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What compounds would be the most effective at reducing estrogen strongly and helping to reduce belly fat as a result? I also believe that cortisol is linked to belly fat? So I think you'd need a good combination of strong cortisol inhibition and estrogen reduction to be able to bring it down. Combined maybe with another agent to reduce endotoxin in the gut.
 

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It all depends on endocrine balance and thyroid function. A young, relative healthy person without endocrine abnormalities could probably handle 12-24 hour fasts without much risk. But an 35+ aged, obese person, with cortisol/DHEA ratio above 0.3 (and/or, for males, cortisol/testosterone ratio >15) will probably end up making things a lot worse by fasting and doing any exercise except (mild) concentric training. Obesity is an endocrine disorder, plain and simple, and should be treated as such by changing diet composition and, if needed, addressing hormonal abnormalities. Any attempts to force a person with already compromised health to further stress themselves with fasting/exercise will most likely make things worse. Again, the Biggest Loser study was pretty conclusive in that respect.
Not sure there is much good doing resistance exercise while fasting, since IGF-1/insulin would be low in that period and without them amino acids would go towards gluconeogenesis instead of recycled back into muscle protein synthesis. Also, cortisol rises while fasting and any exertion, even pure concentric exercise, while fasting would drive cortisol even higher. So, unless the person has at least a sweet drink or something, the exercise would make things worse in most cases. Ray suggested drinking a fluid with electrolytes as those inhibit muscle breakdown, but so far the only confirmed anti-catabolic agents I have seen shown to work in humans during fasting are the anabolic/anticatabolic steroids.

This is my exact experience Haidut writes about here. In my late 30’s I discovered the false hope of the Ketogenic diet and Fasting. After 6 months I was looking the skinniest I had been since my senior highschool year. Amazing! No, Dehydration! A year later endless health problems started. And I would go in and out of trying keto fasting again and again.
Here is the real problem that compounds as the psychology of what Haidut writes about plays out in your head. You feel really good fasting with good seeming mental clarity. This is because your cortisol is running the show. So you really feel like you’re doing the write thing. That’s a huge problem. The thing that is tearing down your tissues is giving you mental clarity and of course lower endo-toxin from never eating anything is great. But then you start getting leg cramps at night. Then you start getting foot cramps in the day. Then you boost electrolytes and eat more fat. Then you start loosing sleep. So then you start taking freezing cold showers. That’s fun and gives more mental clarity so then you cut out all plants from the diet. Then your thyroid starts to hurt!!! And you think it’s a soar throat! So then you Fast for longer! Then you start taking terrible supplements that you think help you detox! Whatever the hell that means. So this clear mind you get leads you down a rabbit hole right towards fatty liver, terribly hypothyroid, food craving.
I had a stabbing pain in my throat for an entire year. Right where my thyroid is. And all I could think to do was eat less frequently and eat more steak. And buy more supplements.
The harsh reality is that no one person in this country doesn’t have pounds of PUFA making up there bodies tissues. So if you want to fast you are putting yourself on a very high Pufa diet. It’s that simple.
 
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But then you start getting leg cramps at night. Then you start getting foot cramps in the day. Then you boost electrolytes and eat more fat.


Then your thyroid starts to hurt!!! And you think it’s a soar throat! So then you Fast for longer! Then you start taking terrible supplements that you think help you detox! Whatever the hell that means.

I had a stabbing pain in my throat for an entire year. Right where my thyroid is. And all I could think to do was eat less frequently and eat more steak. And buy more supplements.
All this that you said was my experience with the keto diet too. My thyroid felt like there was a rock in my throat and I had trouble getting food past it. It hurt trying to swallow, and the night leg cramps were terrible!
 
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Another dent in the fasting armour. Do you think that occasional fasting such as one 24 hour period a week would have the same negative effect?

Side note i saw another clip of that Bryan Johnson guy who is trying to slow his aging down he does a lot of things wrong such as constantly being calorie restricted, daily fasting etc however one interesting thing I picked up is that he takes thyroid hormone and aspirin daily might explain how he is able to "get away" with some of the crazy stuff he does.
This Brian Johnson, who injects his 17 year old son’s blood into himself?

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