My Journey To Optimal Health

[ShotTrue]

Like I say, I take my macros and just scale up calories... Example here was yesterday:

View attachment 13820

I can go upwards of 15% protein and sometimes be OK also, in which case that would have brought me up to 180. 125 is more than plenty with a high total calorie intake too though.

40% protein is extreme overkill, especially for the active person. The active person doesn't really need more protein, but they do need more carbs. Excessive protein intake is completely unnecessary for almost everyone, even people who are taking steroids, except perhaps when they're in their initial mass build phase. Even people who are on steroids start to reach a point of diminishing returns with muscle building rate though.

Okay, what is your limiter for protein though? The general consensus is 1 gram for 1lb of bodyweight, I know from reading that even steroid users find 2 grams per lb of body weight too much.
So anywhere from less than 2 grams per lb or less than 1 gram per lb is optimal
You weigh over 200 or around that I’m assuming, so what is your determinant for sufficient protein

 

[Cirion]

what is your determinant for sufficient protein

Whatever results in optimal metabolism as measured by waking body temps/pulses and weight gain or weight loss and doesn't leave me too extremely hungry.

For me, that's 10-15% protein from calories (In the context of high calorie 4500+ a day). Again, the context of high calorie makes the difference in why the % can be lower and still be sufficient. So, roughly 120-180 gram a day.

 

[ShotTrue]

Whatever results in optimal metabolism as measured by waking body temps/pulses and weight gain or weight loss and doesn't leave me too extremely hungry.

For me, that's 10-15% protein from calories (In the context of high calorie 4500+ a day). Again, the context of high calorie makes the difference in why the % can be lower and still be sufficient. So, roughly 120-180 gram a day.

So basically basing it off body temperature. Not something I feel comfortable with as I like strict guidelines, but an interesting though. I haven’t looked into helps or pulse yet for myself.

 

[Cirion]

So basically basing it off body temperature. Not something I feel comfortable with as I like strict guidelines, but an interesting though. I haven’t looked into helps or pulse yet for myself.

Well, those are my strict guidelines. But if it helps, check this out.

The myth of 1 g/lb: Optimal protein intake for bodybuilders

From here, even 0.8g/lb is conservative and more than plenty.

According to this, even around 0.8-0.9 g/kg (about 0.4 g/lb) is enough for sedentary individuals (myself these days) which even at my high bodyweight puts me at around 116 gram needed, so even the lower end of my intakes, 125g is more than enough for me.

Awhile back I did a full vegan experiment and was under 75 gram of protein most days and I did start to develop some muscle pains in my chest and back, also hips in particular. I don't get this as long as I get 125+ average.

 

[ShotTrue]

Well, those are my strict guidelines. But if it helps, check this out.

The myth of 1 g/lb: Optimal protein intake for bodybuilders

From here, even 0.8g/lb is conservative and more than plenty.

According to this, even around 0.8-0.9 g/kg (about 0.4 g/lb) is enough for sedentary individuals (myself these days) which even at my high bodyweight puts me at around 116 gram needed, so even the lower end of my intakes, 125g is more than enough for me.

Awhile back I did a full vegan experiment and was under 75 gram of protein most days and I did start to develop some muscle pains in my chest and back in particular. I don't get this as long as I get 125+ average.

Interesting. At my 210 if I weight train that puts me at 176 grams protein. I’ll try to emwber reading that link later.
I have a nutrition plan from a expert nutritionist, and they basically say that there was no evidence that even 1 gram per lb is the threshold for protein benefits
I need to read your link , annoying how the issue was never 100% hashed out

Another thought, perhaps the non -steroidal athlete could use more protein than steroid users, so steroid user anecdotes of protein thresholds are less reliable.

 

[sevenzy]

I'd like to hire Chris Masterjohn, or someone anyway, to help me, because I apparently cannot do it myself - but at a loss because people like Chris cost $300/hr and currently I just don't have that kinda money to throw away.

Have you seen his testing nutrition status e book?

 

[Cirion]

Interesting. At my 210 if I weight train that puts me at 176 grams protein. I’ll try to emwber reading that link later.
I have a nutrition plan from a expert nutritionist, and they basically say that there was no evidence that even 1 gram per lb is the threshold for protein benefits
I need to read your link , annoying how the issue was never 100% hashed out

Another thought, perhaps the non -steroidal athlete could use more protein than steroid users, so steroid user anecdotes of protein thresholds are less reliable.

Even the 0.8g/lb amount for strength athletes is probably overkill for anyone other than complete gym newbies. What SHOULD increase as you get more advances is higher carbs. Deadlifting 800 lb, even if you have the strength for it, burns a **** ton more energy than deadlifting 200 lb.

But I train harder!
If you still think you need more than 0.82g/lb because you think you train harder than these test subjects, think again. Lemon et al. (1992) studied bodybuilders training 1.5 hours per day, 6 days per week and still concluded 0.75g/lb is the highest intake at which body composition benefits could occur.



But I’m more advanced than these geeks!
Another frequently heard objection is that people need more protein because they are more experienced than the studied populations. Well, Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) used elite bodybuilders and found that less protein was needed than in novice bodybuilders.



In fact, the finding that the more experienced you are, the less protein you need, has been replicated in several studies (Rennie & Tipton, 2000; Hartman, Moore & Phillips, 2006; Moore et al., 2007).



In everyone there is both constant protein synthesis and breakdown. Resistance training causes both breakdown and synthesis to increase, normally with a favorable balance towards synthesis. As you progress in your training, the body becomes more efficient at stopping the breakdown of protein resulting from training. Since less protein now needs to be replenished, this increase in nitrogen retention means less protein is subsequently needed for optimal growth.



Secondly, the more advanced you are, the less protein synthesis increases after training. As you become more muscular and you get closer to your genetic limit, less muscle is built after training. This is very intuitive. The slower you can build muscle, the less protein is needed for optimal growth. It wouldn’t make any sense if the body needed more protein to build less muscle, especially considering that the body becomes more efficient at metabolizing protein.

 

[Cirion]

Have you seen his testing nutrition status e book?

I haven't.

I've got alot more experience under my belt though since i made that post and feeling a bit more confident in my self-coaching abilities, and in another thread I started compiling alot of data and making plots etc. It's how I've helped determine my optimal macros and also calories and other things as well.

 

[ShotTrue]

Even the 0.8g/lb amount for strength athletes is probably overkill for anyone other than complete gym newbies. What SHOULD increase as you get more advances is higher carbs. Deadlifting 800 lb, even if you have the strength for it, burns a **** ton more energy than deadlifting 200 lb.

Interesting read and point taken, do you have the link for your quote?

 

[Cirion]

Anabolic men is the first website I found before raypeat that started me on the right path and they have a lot of good stuff written up.

Check this out

Carbohydrates and Testosterone: Non-Essential but Still Important

A study by Volek et al4. for example saw that when their resistance-trained subjects consumed more protein and fewer carbohydrates, their testosterone production was suppressed in a dose-dependent fashion (the bigger the ratio of protein/carbohydrate, the larger the drop in testosterone).


Anderson et al5. saw similar results with sedentary subjects. Their study examined hormonal parameters in subjects who were put on diets that were nearly identical in terms of caloric intake and dietary fat intake (20% of calories) but differed dramatically in the amount of protein and carbohydrate (10% protein 70% carbs vs. 44% protein 35% carbs). The results showed – as to be expected – that testosterone and DHT were significantly lower in the high-protein low-carb group, whereas their cortisol (stress hormone) was also significantly higher. In other words, carbs had an androgen boosting, stress suppressing effect.

 

[ShotTrue]

Anabolic men is the first website I found before raypeat that started me on the right path and they have a lot of good stuff written up.

Check this out

Carbohydrates and Testosterone: Non-Essential but Still Important

Alright thanks! Gonna bookmark that site and read up on it. Peat has definitely been enlightening on the glory of carbs

 

[Cirion]

Alright thanks! Gonna bookmark that site and read up on it. Peat has definitely been enlightening on the glory of carbs

It's an excellent site. I disagree with some of their points, but for the most part anabolicmen is a pretty "peaty" website.

Here's more gold that pretty much agrees w/ Ray:

So more carbs equals more testosterone?

Yes, to say it in a simple manner. There is, however, some room for debate on what type of carbs you should be consuming for best testosterone response. Increased intake of gluten-rich grains, for example, has been shown to increase prolactin in few studies7,8, and prolactin is notorious for its testosterone lowering effect9 as it suppresses GnRH release10. Some grain-products also tend to increase endotoxin and serotonin production (due to intestinal inflammation and being high in tryptophan), which can negatively impact dopamine and testosterone production11.

If you ask me, best types of carbohydrates for hormonal optimization come from root vegetables (potatoes and such), white rice, fruit & pressed fruit juice, milk, and even cane sugar (yes, stop being so afraid of simple sugars).

The AM website used to have web forums that I was a frequent visitor to before I found the Ray peat forums. Unfortunately the AM website closed down due to frequent spammers, which made me very sad because there were some super knowledgeable people who used to post there, and all those posts are gone forever =(

 

[opson123]

It's amazing you are able to eat so much carbs without being bloated. You are also able to eat them without much fat. Do you not get loose stools from the juice concentrate? I tried it afew years ago and was too slow and shat on the bathroom floor.

The only way I don't bloat like a balloon is when the carbs are drowning in fat. A bar of randle cycle nightmare milk chocolate bloats me less than a single blueberry lol. I also dont have bs issues with chocolate. I tried a liter of whole milk with 2dl extra added cream ja and six mars bars for a few days and bloated less than I do from a small cup of rice. I also had a bm two days in a row. I tried beef tallow too (CLASH), but cant get it down alone and I just can't digest meat and pair the tallow with it so I tried milk and cream as a cheap and easy alternative.

I never liked dairy fat, but suddenly it's not that bad lol. Hopefully I wont get fat. Gonna drop the mars bars and try something else for carbs.

 

[Cirion]

It's amazing you are able to eat so much carbs without being bloated. You are also able to eat them without much fat. Do you not get loose stools from the juice concentrate? I tried it afew years ago and was too slow and shat on the bathroom floor.

The only way I don't bloat like a balloon is when the carbs are drowning in fat. A bar of randle cycle nightmare milk chocolate bloats me less than a single blueberry lol. I also dont have bs issues with chocolate. I tried a liter of whole milk with 2dl extra added cream ja and six mars bars for a few days and bloated less than I do from a small cup of rice. I also had a bm two days in a row. I tried beef tallow too (CLASH), but cant get it down alone and I just can't digest meat and pair the tallow with it so I tried milk and cream as a cheap and easy alternative.

I never liked dairy fat, but suddenly it's not that bad lol. Hopefully I wont get fat. Gonna drop the mars bars and try something else for carbs.

I think the ideal % from fat is likely higher for someone healthier/leaner, but won't know for sure until I get leaner again myself. But for me, I can't have any more than 10-15% without running into trouble. Do I feel like I want a little more fat sometimes? Yes, but I always regret it with increased body weight and lower body temps the next day, so it's just not worth it for me. What I do, like I say, is reserve most/all of my fat until the evening meal, and this is sufficient to avoid "fat cravings" in the middle of the night or not being able to sleep etc.

Bar of randle cycle nightmare haha love it =P I think it's fine as long as you can digest it and your temps are pulses aren't adversely affected. That's ultimately what matters imo.

I do not have any issues with my BM's no. 50 gram of fat is more than enough, as is 20 grams of fiber etc for me to have healthy BM's.

 

[Cirion]

The other thing I've come to realize (for me, at least) that I should generally avoid anything except pure carbs if I wake up in the middle of the night. Having fats or protein seems to inhibit restoring my glucose levels before going back to bed as gauged by my bad waking temps the next morning (Often below 98F if I had a fatty snack at like 2 am).

 

[ShotTrue]

It's an excellent site. I disagree with some of their points, but for the most part anabolicmen is a pretty "peaty" website.

Here's more gold that pretty much agrees w/ Ray:



The AM website used to have web forums that I was a frequent visitor to before I found the Ray peat forums. Unfortunately the AM website closed down due to frequent spammers, which made me very sad because there were some super knowledgeable people who used to post there, and all those posts are gone forever =(

Wow they didn’t even catalog/store forum posts. Very sad when that happens

 

[Bart1]

@Cirion I also started at anabolic men. That’s where I got the intermittent fasting from, which was terrible for me unfortunately. I remember training in the morning on an empty stomach and feeling really stressed but I was convinced I needed to push harder... didn’t end so well.

I slowly getting worse in my health. Chris Masterjohn is not really peaty right? Not so much fan of sugar, niacinamide depleting methyl donor stuff. But his name seems to get mentioned here now and then?

 

[Vinny]

So guys I did something dumb this week, lol. So this past week I experimented with basically "eating any food I had appetite for" and that included lots of poor food choices like pufa laden pizza and also ended up eating way too many calories (even for me! and that's saying something lol) and did absolutely horrible in particular on Fri, & yesterday (Sat). Don't even ask, I'm an idiot, I already know LOL. Back on track now though, and what I did learn from this brief but silly experiment is that macros ABSOLUTELY matter and one way to mitigate the possible negative impact of protein and fats is just make sure carbs remain very high in comparison, which lets you increase fats and proteins a little if you feel like you need them also. Example: Let's say your ideal macros are 80C-10F-10P (which is roughly what it seems like it is for me, give or take a few % on each). Maybe you're currently eating let's say 4000 (as it was for me many days), but you find you're starving for protein and/or fats. In the past, I'd just eat more protein/fats but not increase carbs in the right proportions and I'd get in trouble. So I am thinking the % matters more than the absolute value of each macro a day because they balance each other out. Now I realize the key is probably to keep the %'s the same but just raise everything by that amount if more protein or fats is desired. For me, I think as long as carbs are sufficiently high (75-80% of diet) that I can increase calories pretty high and not run into issues. The issues arise when I get lazy and eat protein/fats because of feeling hungry, and not bring up carbs, and end up at like say 60% calories from carbs, which gets me into trouble because I end up with a much lower than ideal carb/protein and carb/fat ratios. I did that several times last week and paid the price. Conversely, I also found problems the week prior (as previously stated) when I increased carbs too much and did not increase protein and fats alongside of it. I find protein and fats absolutely are needed in some quantities, but there's a huge inverse U involved and the top of the U is very narrow, any less - problems, any more - problems. Also had my protein and fats almost all right at night time last night and that seemed to be beneficial for me. Carbs for energy during the day, protein and fats to slightly slow digestion and last the night blood sugar wise (still having carbs @ night also though). Today feeling 100x better than Saturday... thank God and gonna try not to let myself do any more stupid things moving forward LOL




Haha, now I realize 1100 carb may be too much if its at the expense of any protein or fats, when I started to push 1200+ without the appropriate fats and protein behind it I really started to feel a bit off and my temps also suffered. Like I say, seems to be an upside down U of benefit for protein and fats and too little is also not great in the long term.

I am always experimenting (for better or worse, as you saw in my last paragraph LOL), but right now I've actually mostly ditched fruit since they are not calorie dense enough for my tastes and focus more on juice concentrates which is super calorie rich (to minimize the liquids), some mexi colas, usually coffee with maple syrup in morning, sometimes a little white rice. Sometimes dried fruits but they seem to hurt my teeth so lately I haven't had a lot of them. Out of all the juices, orange juice concentrate does seem to be the one I react to best too but also grape juice concentrate a lot. Also been playing with some naked juice / bolthouse farms juices to try to get a mix of some other fruits also. It's a little more liquid than I'd like, but they are pretty calorie rich and I seem to do OK on at least a few of the flavors.

Your work is priceless, master Cirion!

 

[Otterbutt]

A bar of randle cycle nightmare milk chocolate bloats me less than a single blueberry...

I legit loled at that. I think I'll start referring to all my hedonistic foods as Randle Cycle Nightmares.

Thanks for these logs Cirion. I'm rooting for you!

 

[Cirion]

I legit loled at that. I think I'll start referring to all my hedonistic foods as Randle Cycle Nightmares.

Thanks for these logs Cirion. I'm rooting for you!

Thanks man. Gotta keep the faith. I think I am very close now. Like legit.

Earlier today in my other thread I plotted this:

I have finally learned how to get 85 bpm waking pulse every morning. It's nearly a direct correlation to calories eaten. Pulse too low? Eat more. It's that simple.

The last key is now as follows: How can I get 98.6F waking temp every day? Enter the following plots:

Low protein and low fat. However, I no longer believe low protein is optimal, so I'd sooner believe that moderate protein + Low fat is the answer. I have almost no data of moderate protein plus very low fat, it's one experiment I don't yet have data for, so this week I'm starting to play with very very low fat, but still some protein and still very high carb as usual. Let's see what happens.

Here's the funny part/irony of all this: This is literally the same diet I did over 2 yrs ago when I was in the best health and also best shape of my life. Very high carb, moderate protein, and virtually zero fat. Lol. Silly how it took me 2 yrs and doing all this ridiculous experimentation.......... Only to literally discover what I already know. Go figure. LOL

Still, this time I have actual documentation on how to recover my metabolism, so that if there is ever a next time of having to fix my metabolism, I've now got a systematic documentation of how to do it.