Is Looking Feminine Essentially Bad For Men?

[lvysaur]

But as for the features you mentioned, lighter skin is not innately feminine at all. "Brighter" hair isn't either. Blonde haired and red haired men are a thing.

Sure, but men generally prefer lighter features. Men are darker than women within every racial group of humanity--in most of the world this manifests via skin color, in Europe it manifests via hair/eye color--women are more likely to retain light hair and eyes into adulthood. It's a universal trait.

 

[sweetpeat]

I think the problem with beards is that the longer they are, the harder they are to keep clean. I don't know if it's true or just a perception. Though I've known men to mention it too.

I do like chest hair though. Why do so many men shave it?

 

[lvysaur]

Do you think social dominance is indicative of a healthier organism?

Yes and no, I think social dominance is poorly defined, first of all. There's a difference between being socially popular and socially dominant. I think the former is definitely central to health, the latter is a compensatory or reactionary mechanism to high stress.

In an ideal environment, you don't experience much social stress. And there is little need for social dominance. However in a stressful environment where other men are constantly one-upping or insulting others, social dominance is probably valuable.

But if you're not in such an environment it's not. If you're in a group of people who are being mostly agreeable with you, and you try to exhibit your "social dominance", you will mostly be shunned or at least people will become wary of you. That's not a good thing.

Now obviously, this has nothing directly to do with facial hair--but my individual experience is that thick, fast growing facial hair is a sign of high stress. Also the most "alpha" guys I knew (tall, broad-bodied and broad headed, as well as socially popular) usually had very little facial hair if any--and it's not just because they shaved, you can make out the grain of a guys facial hair even after shaving--they all had very thin and slow growing facial hair.

They also did not have particularly deep voices. I think a lot of people have a mistaken understanding of the word "alpha".

 

[Ableton]

I‘ll just chime in here.
I‘m 181cm, 78 kilos.
I look really, and I mean really masculine. Especially my jaw looks almost cartoonish in terms of length, angularity. This has been pointed out to me by men and women I have met on the same day.
I was always quite ripped with nice body proportions and did not have to work out a lot to look like that. I have friends who were killing it in the gym and never looked like me.
However, I also suffer from mpb. Most rp followers seem to believe that looking manly is healthy, and hairloss indicates a health problem. So those 2 don’t add up for me.
Since I got a bit hypo (lost hair before that) water retention has increased which makes me look more feminine. Hoping to get that in check. Also a receding hair line probably makes you look less manly because you loose that square frame and gain a roundish one for your face.
I also thing height and body frame are more used as an indicator of manlyness by women. I was joking with a friend the other day how every tall, big guy has a hot gf, even if ugly. Anecdotal ofc

 

[maillol]

Ray has talked about pedomorphism and how an "... organism's development, the juvenile stage, is preserved for longer and longer periods in the descendants, eventually becoming the normal adult type. Baby apes resemble humans, in body proportions and behavior, much more than adult apes do. The infant represents our evolutionary future." These characteristics could be thought of as 'feminine' I suppose.

This is interesting. I think people, especially men, look younger now than people of the same age 40+ years ago and I'm not sure it's a good thing. People don't really look like adults now. I think this is also part of the reason for a rise in beards and facial hair because they mask this childish look. Sean Connery in Goldfinger was 35!

 

[Kunstruct]

This is interesting. I think people, especially men, look younger now than people of the same age 40+ years ago

I notice this too men look definitely younger now without question. Even if there are only talks how bad supposedly people look today on the forum, many actually look very young.
Maybe it is also the fact that certain clothing styles that also make people look younger, like for example wearing caps no matter what age was not really common in the 60s.
But then I also keep hearing women at 30-40 how proud they are that they look the way the look, how young they look and how old their parents or close relatives looked at the same age. Some have children some do not have and indeed they look much younger than their close relatives at the same age.

But people also act more childish and the need for entertainment was never greater than today, the entire society is going around fun, trips, games, smiling, pretending how all is great even if maybe at some point it is not, etc.
This can contribute how young someone appears.
Another reason without question is also nowadays teeth can be fixed much easier, I cannot see anyone with missing teeth or without braces like 30-40years ago so this also makes a huge impact on how someone looks.
Actually there is a bigger chance of seeing very old people with flawless teeth as of course none are real and making younger people appear somewhat older.
Anecdotally someone said several years ago, "I should just pull out all my natural teeth now at 40s and just have removable dentures by now because what is the point for my teeth to actually be perfect when I am 60-70 because i will wear removable dentures then for sure looking flawless"

None the less everyone wants to stay young and takes the most actions possible to appear as such.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Also a receding hair line probably makes you look less manly because you loose that square frame and gain a roundish one for your face.

Has your skull changed in shape? Maybe forehead / temples becoming more rounded.

 

[Ableton]

Has your skull changed in shape? Maybe forehead / temples becoming more rounded.

Yeah, I had a longish, alien, model like super thin face.
Now it’s more square, huge jaw and cheekbones. Result of high androgens and vit k I guess. It’s basically long and square now.

above my eyebrows everything is too big. My head is ******* massive lol
Forehead did get more rounded from vit k. Which is good tho

 

[Zigzag]

Yeah, I had a longish, alien, model like super thin face.
Now it’s more square, huge jaw and cheekbones. Result of high androgens and vit k I guess. It’s basically long and square now.

above my eyebrows everything is too big. My head is ******* massive lol
Forehead did get more rounded from vit k. Which is good tho

Highly doubt vit K did anything. You just got massive amounts of androgens.

What's your age btw?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Forehead did get more rounded from vit k.

How is that a good thing, isn't what happens in MPB?

 

[Gone Peating]

You have to keep in mind that everyone today is overloaded with estrogen so that could be affecting people’s preferences

 

[Ableton]

How is that a good thing, isn't what happens in MPB?

Nah, the hairline recession happened when my face was still long and slim, and my forehead was sloped.

its not sloped anymore.
Maybe if it was like this from the beginning I would still have my hairline.

I think fixing sloped foreheads might help some young mpb sufferers with their receding, but who knows.

im 28

what happens in mpb is a mountain on top (crown), but I do not even have that, thankfully

its just all around massive basically

I am quite sure that vit k made my forehead more straight. It just happened too quick after introduction. I also targeted my forehead.
Maybe the sloping is result of some form of inflammation and/or deficiency in vit k
@Zigzag

 

[Jib]

Just wrote a massive post about my experiences with masculinity and wisdom tooth removal and facial collapse, circumcision, metabolic damage and society. It was too long.

Basically, if we grew and developed in a world where our bodies and metabolisms weren't both literally and figuratively mutilated, worrying about this kinda stuff would not be a thing.

Excess estrogen is bad. Not only for growing and developing, but in grown men it easily results in "feminine" characteristics like being weepy, overly emotional and reactive, and sensitive.

I put "feminine" in quotation marks because they're not true feminine traits, and any women who were predominantly showing these things as the hallmarks of their personality would have equally damaged metabolisms.

In a sense, metabolic dysfunction is gender neutral. It isn't a coincidence that is also can largely kill a person's sex drive.

Putting aside cultural ideas about masculinity and femininity, sexual dimorphism is a good sign of health. Both men and women are sexually attracted to relatively specific features because they're signs of good health and fertility.

It's possible to fully acknowledge this, and simultaneously not be overly self-conscious about yourself, or critical of other people. Anyone who's been in a relationship knows that looks ultimately matter very little. It's a very superficial thing, and it affects our decisions about who we get sexually involved with, but once we're actually sexually involved with someone, it's a different ball game completely.

At least that's been my experience.

But overall, yes, "being feminine" is a bad sign for a man, using "feminine" in the colloquial sense, which basically translates to having excess estrogen, and the over-emotionality, depression, hyper-sensitivity and intolerance for conflict or stress of any kind that goes along with it. I can't really imagine any physical appearance changes from estrogen dominance would be as prominent as something surgically induced, like wisdom tooth removal.

If we're talking purely about looks, the face is a huge part of that, and in my opinion is basically set in stone during childhood. If it weren't for all the profiteering in orthodontics, orthotropics would reign supreme. It's unfortunate that the "Looksmaxing" crowd has championed orthotropics and given it a very bad name, like it's something only homicidal, insecure, misogynistic incels would know about, when its actual roots are in exposing the profiteering and damage that traditional orthodontics causes, and proposing a much more logical and clearly superior alternative, that would both be cheaper and more effective, as evidenced by numerous pictures you can easily find online by searching "orthotropics."

Anyway, I'm going off topic again. Interesting times we're living in.

 

[Ableton]

like wisdom tooth removal.

If we're talking purely about looks, the face is a huge part of that, and in my opinion is basically set in stone during childhood. If it weren't for all the profiteering in orthodontics, orthotropics would reign supreme. It's unfortunate that the "Looksmaxing" crowd has championed orthotropics and given it a very bad name, like it's something only homicidal, insecure, misogynistic incels would know about, when its actual roots are in exposing the profiteering and damage that traditional orthodontics causes, and proposing a much more logical and clearly superior alternative, that would both be cheaper and more effective, as evidenced by numerous pictures you can easily find online by searching "orthotropics."

Anyway, I'm going off topic again. Interesting times we're living in.

I agree with some of what you say, but orthodontics saved my horrible teeth when I was a child.
Lower wisdom teeth removal had zero impact on my looks either. Ofc you never know what could have been, but my jaw is literally 1/1000, which doesnt even make sense since apparently not all teeth fit in there?!
Everyone should look into orthotropics, yes

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

I think the problem with beards is that the longer they are, the harder they are to keep clean. I don't know if it's true or just a perception. Though I've known men to mention it too.

I do like chest hair though. Why do so many men shave it?

I sure don't But back hair I do lol

 

[Xemnoraq]

The fact that a man can have a massive beard is a highly masculine trait, dimorphic, yet definitely a feature which is for most women is not appreciated and even criticized. Even more I doubt most women even have any fantasy with anything related to some sort of facial hair on a man.
So I guess being a man can be unattractive for women.

This is actually a good point, most women dont like facial hair and body hair on a man, the men that women find most attractive are men which embody the feminine beauty ie long full unreceeded hair, soft skin etc while still having a masculine appearence for example guys like Brad Pitt, theres even some evidence that facial hair or body hair is not exactly a sign of health in males for example redditors that sit in their basement drinking mountain dew and eating cheetos always have profound facial and body hair, so i think ideally a man should try to embody the things that make a woman beautiful while retaining a masculine facial structure and body, for example a Tarzan look is ideal, full head of thick hair, smooth soft oily looking youthful skin, but a masculine looking face and body, women seem to actually prefer this kind of man over the masculine stereotype of being super hairy bald, rugged and rough looking

 

[Xemnoraq]

I was never the guy who rocked a beard, most I can get away is a 3 day stubble.
Beards are a way to fraud lack of masculine, angular features (jawline).
But it's interesting to see it's a primal attraction trait to a lot of women.
Would prime Brad Pitt or J. Depp look better with a beard? I doubt it.

Also, I think some man look unique with some feminine features, if and only if they have dominant strong masculine features, so a mix of both essentially. This is the pretty boy phenotype.

I 100% second this i just posted about that above, facial hair seems to be a crunch for lack of masculine traits ill post a picture on here which resembles that perfectly

 

[Xemnoraq]

Tell me facial hair and body hair is a sign of masculinity after looking at this alot of the men on the left have traits that would be considered feminine & masculine, ie for feminine - youthful plush oily soft skin, no rugged rough look, full hairlines, but still they also look very masculine without facial hair and thats because they have good bone structure, the ones on the left i think is the ideal look men should go for or strive to look like.

What men looked like before all this SOY and soyism & reddit & pufas

 

[Xemnoraq]

Women who like masculine men like a good beard, a beard is masculine only men can grow beards it signals high androgens.

What about all the fat beta low T discord moderators playing dungeons and dragons while their mom makes them sandwitches? All those guys have full beards even on their neck but despite that they are the living embodiment of physical embaressment im not sure beards are a masculine thing it could be but im not sure sure im convinced, some of the most low T guys i know can grow beards really well but i could be wrong who knows