Estrogen And Attraction

Tarmander

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The reasoning in this thread kind of goes along these lines:

"violence is bad, but this study shows women attracted to violent men, there must be some other explanation that shows why these men are not actually violent."

There are ample reasons for men to be attracted to women who have high estrogen if you reject the lack of nuanced paradigm of estrogen bad, progesterone good.
 
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The reasoning in this thread kind of goes along these lines:

"violence is bad, but this study shows women attracted to violent men, there must be some other explanation that shows why these men are not actually violent."

There are ample reasons for men to be attracted to women who have high estrogen if you reject the lack of nuanced paradigm of estrogen bad, progesterone good.

But are these women actually high estrogen, or are the measurements used showing the opposite? I'd say the reasoning of the original argument is more akin to an argument saying women are attracted to violent men, based on a study showing that they were more attracted men who didn't think all Trump supporters deserve to be executed in the street, and because Trump is so evil this is a dangerous notion so these men are extremely violent.

Still, I'm curious and open if you'd like to elaborate on the ample reasons for the attraction? Can you give us a top 3 at least?
 

opethfeldt

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Can you provide more details? What was less attractive about her demeanor? How did it change? What about aesthetics? How did they differ? Was there a glow associated with progesterone? Rosy cheeks? I keep searching for before/after pictures of women on progesterone, but I can't find any.

Wouldn't progesterone and estradiol alternate as the !ain hormone, with a bit of high testosterone in the middle? When one is high, the other is lower.
It's hard to say exactly why I found her less attractive. She just put off less sexual vibes. She became more of a friend than a lover. Someone pleasant to be around but not as sexual. Could simply reflect my tastes. As for her aesthetics, her lips were less full looking, she lost weight and her body lost curviness. I believe her waist to hip ratio wasn't as high either. Keep in mind, she was taking 20mg of progesterone, which is essentially a replacement dose. Her estrogen may have been overly inhibited. I think a balance of progesterone and estrogen is probably needed, much like how men need to balance progesterone and DHT.
 

baccheion

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It's hard to say exactly why I found her less attractive. She just put off less sexual vibes. She became more of a friend than a lover. Someone pleasant to be around but not as sexual. Could simply reflect my tastes. As for her aesthetics, her lips were less full looking, she lost weight and her body lost curviness. I believe her waist to hip ratio wasn't as high either. Keep in mind, she was taking 20mg of progesterone, which is essentially a replacement dose. Her estrogen may have been overly inhibited. I think a balance of progesterone and estrogen is probably needed, much like how men need to balance progesterone and DHT.
She didn't only take the dose during the luteal phase?
 

Risingfire

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Yes, it was a sufficient dose to stop her cycle. When I say less attractive, I mean sexually. She became a much better girlfriend, though. More faithful and devoted, sweeter. I think I'd rather date a girl with high progesterone but as far as sex appeal, estrogen is more appealing for me. Makes girls act horribly though. Less faithful, argumentative and just irrational. Just my observations.
So she was cheating on you frequently in the past but now it's just once in a while?
 

blabla123

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Japanese women's relative freedom from breast cancer is independent of soy products: traditional soy foods aren't the same as those so widely used in the US, for example, soy sauce doesn't contain the so-called soy estrogens, and tea is used much more commonly in Japan than in the US, and contains health protective ingredients. The “estrogenic” and “antioxidant” polyphenolic compounds of tea are not the protective agents (they raise the level of estrogen), but tea's caffeine is a very powerful and general anti-cancer protectant. The influential article in Lancet (D. Ingram, Lancet 1997;350:990-994. “Phytoestrogens and their role in breast cancer,” Breast NEWS: Newsletter of the NHMRC National Breast Cancer Centre, Vol. 3, No. 2, Winter 1997) used a method known to produce false results, namely, comparing the phytoestrogens (found in large amounts in soybeans) in the urine of women with or without breast cancer. For over fifty years, it has been known that the liver excretes estrogens and other toxins from the body, and that when (because of liver inertia) estrogen isn't excreted by the liver and kidneys, it is retained in the body. This process was observed in both animals and humans decades ago, and it is also well established that estrogen itself suppresses the detoxifying systems, causing fewer carcinogens to be excreted in the urine. Ingram's evidence logically would suggest that the women who have cancer are failing to eliminate estrogens, including phytoestrogens, at a normal rate, and so are retaining a higher percentage of the chemicals consumed in their diets. Flavonoids and polyphenols, like our own estrogens, suppress the detoxifying systems of the body.
Natural Estrogens
 

Tarmander

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But are these women actually high estrogen, or are the measurements used showing the opposite? I'd say the reasoning of the original argument is more akin to an argument saying women are attracted to violent men, based on a study showing that they were more attracted men who didn't think all Trump supporters deserve to be executed in the street, and because Trump is so evil this is a dangerous notion so these men are extremely violent.

Still, I'm curious and open if you'd like to elaborate on the ample reasons for the attraction? Can you give us a top 3 at least?

The original example is pretty good at showing the reasoning. Haidut's post described things very well too. Estrogen is feminizing, makes boobs and other fatty deposits grow. Attractiveness is based on location of fatty deposits. What doesn't make sense?

I remember dating a woman for a month or so who was very high estrogen. She even took estrogenic substances. She was like a feral cat, and was an alcoholic to boot. But she still had this kind of animalistic attractiveness to her.
 
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I guess what doesn't make sense is that Haidut's post, which according to you"described things very well", specifically said: "High serum/urine estradiol is more likely to indicate lower tissue estrogen levels. The women I know who have chronically high levels of prolactin/E1S are far from attractive, and not just by my judgment."

And you seem to be taking the opposite view
 

opethfeldt

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I don't know you but you should never accept cheating. You deserve better
Thanks man. Yeah, I've been cheated on a fair bit. Enough to where it seems to me to be just the nature of a woman. It's happened even during times I was attracting many women. Perhaps it's a subconscious belief I hold and thus, I select women who are likely to cheat. It's food for thought for sure. I definitely agree, no one deserves to be cheated on.
 
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Thanks man. Yeah, I've been cheated on a fair bit. Enough to where it seems to me to be just the nature of a woman. It's happened even during times I was attracting many women. Perhaps it's a subconscious belief I hold and thus, I select women who are likely to cheat. It's food for thought for sure. I definitely agree, no one deserves to be cheated on.

We're getting quite off-topic here, but I'm sorry to hear that opethfeldt, and wish you better luck in the future.


Interesting study, again more of a parallel topic as it's judging the men's hormone levels, I was surprised that even a small minority of commenters on that thread preferred the left one.
 

lvysaur

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White men are often times less attracted to estrogenic women than latino or black men for example.
Blacks: you're right, but Latinos have lower estrogen than whites. (Asians do too and it's the reason Latinos do)
What about the idea that modern women are more attracted to feminized / androgynous men?
IMO, the "androgynous" or "feminized" male appearance could simply be a progesterone-like appearance. Unless you're referring to men with literal secondary female features.
It is a theory in Lookism circles, that women between the ages of 16 - 22, let's say are primarily attracted by androgynous, "pretty-boy"man, and over the age of 22, they tend to favor more masculine traits in men
I've noticed this, I'm pretty sure it's general knowledge basically.

Also I think a lot of the things we are/aren't attracted to can be modulated by diet. For instance, men famously love a woman's backside, and gluteal fat just happens to be highly polyunsaturated relative to other fat--another anti-peat finding.

Perhaps our diets/epigenomes/etc for our lives and the lives of our parents/grandparents have led us to our current preferences. We may prefer buttocks if we have some genetic memory of stress, because the PUFAs lower metabolism and guarantee offspring survival. Maybe a similar thing with preferring estrogenic women.

Even very big breasts are estrogenic. Also, buttock-preference is highest in America and Africa, while breast preference is highest in India/China/Europe.

DVtdEWX.jpg
 
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lvysaur

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BTW here is the intra-US breakdown:
QEHjIhn.jpg

Obviously, there is the racial difference (blacks like butt more). But even in many highly white states they prefer buttocks, here is a race map of the US for comparison:
1200px-White_Non-Hispanic_population_percentage_by_state_in_2012.svg.png

The correlation isn't perfect and there are still other factors at play. West Virginia is the whitest state, but still prefers buttocks. Utah is only 80% white but prefers breasts.

When I look at the "breast" states, it feels like they tend to have higher sense of community (New England and Utah) than traditional flyover states.
 
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When I look at the "breast" states, it feels like they tend to have higher sense of community (New England and Utah) than traditional flyover states.

Something about r/K selection theory? Would that have a hormonal component or be more of a cultural thing (can you even separate hormones and culture? I don't think so.)
 

lvysaur

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Something about r/K selection theory?
Yes, but vast majority of people completely misunderstand r/K selection in order to fit their political biases, and even the original framing is misleading.

r-selection is stress.
K-selection is lack of stress.

r-selection happens due to predation, or so the story goes. Sea turtles have many offspring because only few survive, etc. However, this same genetic selection is concomitant with rise in baseline adrenergic behavior. Compare rabbit and a cat, which is more adrenergic?
Therefore, predation causes r-selection, but is NOT the only method by which r-selected traits occur. Probably anything which is pro-adrenergic will generate "r-type" symptoms.

K-selection happens due to stable living. Predators are K selected, because predators tend to NOT be prey, and thus need less adrenergic signaling. Non-predators can also be K-selected if they are able to avoid predation by other means (elephants/whales via size, dodos and elephant birds via habitat)

The analogy breaks down somewhat because humans are all the same species, and nobody has to worry about predation.

However, other ills can produce the same adrenergic behavior. Poverty is a big one. Poorer people have more kids, and girls in fatherless homes reach puberty quicker--these are causative, not simply correlative. Stress in general can produce this behavior. The rabbit has degenerated to such a state that it needs tons and tons of stress simply to exist, and that's why it is r-selected.

My guess is that in the "breast" preferring areas, there is a greater sense of community, more socialistic policies, and guarantee of some type of social safety net--if not by the government at least by the family, and in a family-oriented culture to soften the blow (living with your parents in the US is stressful partially because of the stigma; people are expected to live alone just as a baseline--this is less the case in the Mediterranean)
 

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