Estrogen And Attraction

[PTP]

That's an interesting idea ivysaur. Looking at your boobs vs butts map, the few US states with the breast preference (I think a sign of K selection preference) seem to be low density states at higher latitudes. I expect they have a higher percentage of white people than the nation as a whole, they look like mostly republican states, with a few left leaning ones like Maine. So I imagine the government welfare isn't much there, although perhaps there is a greater community bond through families and churches. Europe otoh has a strong breast preference over quite a range of cultures and geographic regions, though government provided welfare is probably much higher there than the US.

I wonder how representative of the region as a whole stats from porn sites can be, although considering the widespread use, it's probably more accurate than most social science polls.

 

[baccheion]

Blacks and hispanics (younger than 40) have higher androgenicity:estrogenicity than whites (and asians). While east asians technically have higher testosterone (due to less 5-AR), they have more copies of the androgen receptor (less sensitive) and higher estrogen.

In the study, total testosterone, free testosterone, DHT, and estradiol were higher. SHBG was lower. When set as ratios, hispanics had the highest "masculinity" and then blacks. Then everyone else.

Higher androgenicity:estrogenicity = greater preference for curvy.

If the menstrual cycle always flowed as shown on charts, effectively all women would be curvy. Some thinner + curved and others thicc. There are exceptions (eg, asian women have increased resistance to estrogen), but curvy is representative. Most deviations are due to environment, diet, and sleep.

Lower progesterone + higher estradiol = larger breasts, smaller waist, and no butt.

Lower progesterone + higher estrone = larger butt and small breasts.

Prolactin biases the actions of estrogen toward the breast area.

Progesterone activates the estrogen receptors in the breast area.

Estrone can also result in masculinization of bones as is also resultant from androgens.

Progesterone increases conversion of stearic acid to MUFAs like oleic acid.

Estrogen increases conversion of alpha linoleic acid to DHA/EPA.

Butt area fat is more unsaturated. Breast fat is more saturated.

The body stores fat all over. Resistance by alpha-:beta-adrenergic receptor ratios biases where it's taken from during lipolysis. Estrogen creates resistance to burning fat from the butt/thigh/hip area. Progesterone from the breast area, I believe.

Like seems to attract like, so I'd assume breast lovers are more estradiol and butt lovers are more estrone (like what happens with DHEA supplementation; also with vitamin K2 MK-4, as it lowers estradiol in the estrone:estradiol ratio).

That is, maybe testosterone + DHT = butt and testosterone + estradiol = breasts?

 

[lvysaur]

While east asians technically have higher testosterone (due to less 5-AR), they have more copies of the androgen receptor (less sensitive) and higher estrogen.

Asians have the lowest estrogen of all races.

I expect they have a higher percentage of white people than the nation as a whole

It's more that they have a lower percentage of black people. But this isn't very interesting, everyone already knows Africans like butt more than Eurasians.

India and China also have the breast preference, and it seems like the main factors in butt preference are African ancestry, Islam, sparse populations, war/famine, and social stress.

 

[baccheion]

Asians have the lowest estrogen of all races.

It's more that they have a lower percentage of black people. But this isn't very interesting, everyone already knows Africans like butt more than Eurasians.

India and China also have the breast preference, and it seems like the main factors in butt preference are African ancestry, Islam, sparse populations, war/famine, and social stress.

Asian males? What? They have more copies of androgen receptor gene (less sensitive), the less activation 5-alpha reductase gene mutation, and more aromatase activity.

You can tell by height. Less estrogen during puberty = taller.

 

[David90]

...when CHRONICALLY elevated. Nobody said estrogen does not have a physiological role. Same for cortisol, prolactin, etc. Sexual activity raises all of those in both men and women. That does not mean it is a bad thing...but if you do it too often (and "too often" depends on each person's individual health) it can certainly become a problem, especially if it is of the routine type. Namely, it is common now for PCP and gynos to encourage women to have more sex and "schedule" it regularly. I can think of few things that can kill the excitement and intimacy more effectively than putting "sex on Tuesday" on both partners' calendars. Peat also spoke of too frequent sexual activity as something that can become a problem and activate latent viruses, especially herpes and JCV. Both can be lethal in an immuno-compromised person, especially the latter, despite the fact that most of us carry both of these viruses our whole lives and very few people experience outbreaks of either.
Progressive multifocal leukoencephalopathy - Wikipedia

Finally, I would like to see an experiment where they also measured women's prolactin and/or estrone sulfate (E1S), which are biomarkers of systemic estrogenic load. High serum/urine estradiol is more likely to indicate lower tissue estrogen levels. The women I know who have chronically high levels of prolactin/E1S are far from attractive, and not just by my judgment.

Right. Also elevated Estrogen (when Chronically Elevated for long enough Time) can produce Uncontrolled Cell Replication, aka Cancer (?!)

i don't have any of my hand. It is a theory in Lookism circles, that women between the ages of 16 - 22, let's say are primarily attracted by androgynous, "pretty-boy"man, and over the age of 22, they tend to favor more masculine traits in men (like a muscular physique, angular jawline...etc)

Right. Especially the Angular Jawline Part. In Terms of Dating it makes quite a Differnce in my Personal Opinion. But it isn't always the Case. I see sometimes Girls over Here, with her Boyfriend that have not always such Traits (Balding Hair, Bad Jawline, Too Chubby ect.) and vice versa.

What about the idea that modern women are more attracted to feminized / androgynous men?

Yes and No. Mostly the Searching Traits are still there (Big and Muscular, Angular Jawline, Good Eye Area and Hairline and so forth). I Have Female Friends here and there that have Feminized / Androgynous Men, but they are the Minority. At Least in My Circle of Friends....

 

[tankasnowgod]

There is a common idea in mainstream science that men are attracted to more highly estrogenic women.

Hormone levels predict attractiveness of women

That article might be behind a paywall, but here's the relevant quotation:

"...photograph of each woman that had been taken at the time of her highest urine-oestrogen level...this correlated to the point of ovulation in the women’s menstrual cycles. These photographs were rated...for attractiveness, health and femininity.

The group also rated two composite face images. One composite was an amalgamation of the 10 women with the lowest peak-oestrogen levels, while the other image was a combination of the 10 women with the highest levels (see image)....“There was a very strong and direct correlation between the level of each woman’s oestrogen and how attractive, healthy and feminine they were found to be, showing that fertility is related to attractiveness,”"

Now, since estrogen is considered a stress hormone in Peat world, I'd be surprised if men found it attractive. So I have two possible Peat compatible theories: Maybe higher estrogen comes naturally with a higher progesterone level, and that is what men are finding attractive. Or maybe the women are excreting more estrogen in their urine (how it was measured in the study), and therefore have less in their bodies. I think I recall Peat writing that the idea of supposedly low estrogen levels in menopausal women was an issue with the hormone level analysis.

I wondered if anyone here has an explanation for this?

First off, this isn't a great study. I don't know how you can link hormone levels to attractiveness simply by using photographs to judge. In this case, it's not even a true photograph, it's a computer generated composite. That, in itself, could be a massive confounder. Both pictures look fake, but the left hand picture looks more well done than the other. It so happens that the left hand one is the "higher estrogen" picture.

During a woman's cycle, both progesterone and estrogen will rise at the same times. Other hormones are likely fluctuating as well. So, while there is likely a hormonal component in attractiveness, reducing it down to just one is itself problematic.

 

[lvysaur]

You can tell by height. Less estrogen during puberty = taller.

Yes, the taller you are the less estrogen you have, very advanced reasoning. By the same logic, Sudan should be a high-tech utopia, since tallness correlates with wealth and IQ?

The racial distribution of serum estrogen is Black > White > Asian. If you're claiming that Asians have higher estrogen sensitivity, you'll have to prove that.

 

[Hgreen56]

Right women = highest oestrogen levels / feminised

Left women: highest oestrogen levels / feminised

who do you pick?

 

[JKX]

Right women = highest oestrogen levels / feminised

Left women: highest oestrogen levels / feminised

who do you pick?

Highest urine estrogen level. Would be really interesting to know the blood and tissue levels and how these correlate to the photos.

 

[baccheion]

Yes, the taller you are the less estrogen you have, very advanced reasoning. By the same logic, Sudan should be a high-tech utopia, since tallness correlates with wealth and IQ?

The racial distribution of serum estrogen is Black > White > Asian. If you're claiming that Asians have higher estrogen sensitivity, you'll have to prove that.

Do ones in their 70s correlate with ones 19-39?

 

[PTP]

Highest urine estrogen level. Would be really interesting to know the blood and tissue levels and how these correlate to the photos.

The first pic is computer generated, so there is no correlation. The second pic may be computer generated, I can see why some here would believe that, it does sort of look that way, though I believe they used real pictures in the study and the second pic is supposed to be of a real woman

 

[SonOfEurope]

What exactly is meant by "whites" and "hispanics"?

African americans are essentially mulatoes of the highest caliber slaves bought by the English and Dutch, with the "mastah's DNA printed in there."

"Hispanics" are for the most part Native Americans who speak dialects of Spanish and are Catholic.... Latín América was to Spain in the XVI-XVII centuries what India was for England.

"Whites" i guess are German-amglo-dutch-irish descendants.... the nordic human Type of Europe might have a different note, this doesn't clarify much at all.

Hormones are also one thing, racial tendencies for a particular fat pattern are another.

 

[SonOfEurope]

Estrogen and progesterone sensitize each other, this is why women are so beautiful in our eyes... but sometimes unpredictable....

....

 

[Advocate2021]

From a purely evolutionary perspective, for purposes of reproduction, it would make sense for attraction to be strongest when a woman ovulates which is in fact when her estrogen is highest and she is fertile. Also, female libido generally is most pronounced at this time as well. So nature would want a man to be particularly attracted to the woman during this peak estrogen time in order to procreate.

 

[BearWithMe]

From a purely evolutionary perspective, for purposes of reproduction, it would make sense for attraction to be strongest when a woman ovulates which is in fact when her estrogen is highest and she is fertile. Also, female libido generally is most pronounced at this time as well. So nature would want a man to be particularly attracted to the woman during this peak estrogen time in order to procreate.

Correlation doesn't imply causation. The attraction could be caused by completely different proces that happens to also increase estrogen

 

[Advocate2021]

Correlation doesn't imply causation. The attraction could be caused by completely different proces that happens to also increase estrogen

And i was not saying it does. look at my language- "it would make sense..."..."would want....". but i will say and i know this from first hand experience as a woman, when i ovulate my libido shoots through the roof and my estrogen is at its peak and thats when nature is saying " make a baby". Only in my case, not really looking to have one at this point so i steer clear of intimate interaction with men at that time and cultivate my energy myself.

 

[BearWithMe]

And i was not saying it does. look at my language- "it would make sense..."..."would want....". but i will say and i know this from first hand experience as a woman, when i ovulate my libido shoots through the roof and my estrogen is at its peak and thats when nature is saying " make a baby". Only in my case, not really looking to have one at this point so i steer clear of intimate interaction with men at that time and cultivate my energy myself.

How do you know your libido would not be higher if your estrogen was lower?

 

[Advocate2021]

How do you know your libido would not be higher if your estrogen was lower?

you know you are talking to a lawyer right? i am simply sharing the evidence as i have it- i am not discounting other possibilities. its biology- when women ovulate they are primed for sex to reproduce and are fertile and their estrogen shoots up. their libido is high- ask any ovulating woman and Dr. Peat. And i generally have high libido even when im not i am not saying a woman only has high libido when she ovulates - its just a different sensation around that time. I also have great libido at pretty much every other phase of my cycle as well. I am very aware of my body and know when im ovulating and know the sensation of that. My exercise here was one of deductive reasoning- taking facts and evidence and then drawing an explanation based upon same. As a trial lawyer, i prove my case by a preponderance of the evidence. Doesnt mean juries always give the correct verdict. i am not being didactic or all knowing in my contentions- merely sharing data and possible determinations based upon same. not ruling out any other theories.

 

[BearWithMe]

you know you are talking to a lawyer right? i am simply sharing the evidence as i have it- i am not discounting other possibilities. its biology- when women ovulate they are primed for sex to reproduce and are fertile and their estrogen shoots up. their libido is high- ask any ovulating woman and Dr. Peat. And i generally have high libido even when im not i am not saying a woman only has high libido when she ovulates - its just a different sensation around that time. I also have great libido at pretty much every other phase of my cycle as well. I am very aware of my body and know when im ovulating and know the sensation of that. My exercise here was one of deductive reasoning- taking facts and evidence and then drawing an explanation based upon same. As a trial lawyer, i prove my case by a preponderance of the evidence. Doesnt mean juries always give the correct verdict. i am not being didactic or all knowing in my contentions- merely sharing data and possible determinations based upon same. not ruling out any other theories.

Is there a possibility that all the amazing benefits you described are caused by some other hormone? Progesterone maybe?

Is there a possibility that the elevated estrogen is a response of the body to elevated progesterone, to "balance things out"?

 

[Advocate2021]

Is there a possibility that all the amazing benefits you described are caused by some other hormone? Progesterone maybe?

Is there a possibility that the elevated estrogen is a response of the body to elevated progesterone, to "balance things out"? and my posts do not preclude any of those. I merely shared my experience and spoke about evolution and offered a possible explanation for attraction that might play out under those circumstances.

Is there a possibility that all the amazing benefits you described are caused by some other hormone? Progesterone maybe?

Is there a possibility that the elevated estrogen is a response of the body to elevated progesterone, to "balance things out"?

sure anything is possible - look at our current science fiction novel we all live in now lol. however in a woman's cycle estrogen rises and peaks at ovulation, followed by a rise of progesterone there after. thats why mensturating women cycle progest-e post ovulation for the two weeks prior to menstruation. so any rise in libido on the day of ovulation is most likely due to the surge of estrogen. and dr peat has discussed high libido and estrogen. this makes sense from a bioevolutionary perspective. But progesterone, when balanced, of course is important for a health balanced libido generally. we are just talking about an isolated instance in a womans cycle when she is fertlle and intended to reproduce- so my possiblity makes sense for sure for that one instance.