Insomnia And Depression Oh My!

Peata

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
3,402
You guys are making me hungry for a float! :lol:

But how are you doing now, 4PS?
 

natedawggh

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
649
You need fruit and sunshine! Peat often emphasizes the importance of fruit. Orange juice is usually treated with enzymes to make it any degree of pulp/no pulp, which destroys the integrity of the raw fruit (OJ is not bad, though, just not enough by itself). Unless you're getting fresh squeezed OJ, you should totally add tons of other fruit to your diet, especially non-starchy fruits.

You also didn't list coconut oil. Are you taking it? That or cocoa butter or palm oil are extremely beneficial in the diet and can counteract/heal the damage that estrogens and stress cause and can even alleviate menopause (I've read in Peat articles, as I am not female and don't know for myself).

And again, Sunshine! Lots of it, if you can. The light advice so far is right on but no one mentions sunshine, even though Peat emphasizes it often. That may or may not help with insomnia, but it definitely cures depression in the presence of sugar and saturated fat!
 

Birdie

Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,783
Location
USA
@4peats,

Is there any update? I started reading at the beginning for background, but wonder how you are doing since April.

@nate, I did notice she was using more coconut oil, and was warned not to use it too close to bed, I think.

I know that I have to stop CO around 3pm or it can start of a nightime bout of IBS. That's especially if I have it with starch. Tortilla chips + CO = IBS for me. And that would make me depressed!! :lol:

I think you are on the right track with efforts to reduce estrogen and pufa. All the tools that Peat mentions for that...I remember progesterone, niacinamide (not niacin), thyroid hormone, fruit, aspirin. I have a block but it sounds like you are aware and learning more all the time.

Did you start the liver? That's important.
 

gretchen

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
816
natedawggh said:
You need fruit and sunshine! Peat often emphasizes the importance of fruit. Orange juice is usually treated with enzymes to make it any degree of pulp/no pulp, which destroys the integrity of the raw fruit (OJ is not bad, though, just not enough by itself). Unless you're getting fresh squeezed OJ, you should totally add tons of other fruit to your diet, especially non-starchy fruits.

You also didn't list coconut oil. Are you taking it? That or cocoa butter or palm oil are extremely beneficial in the diet and can counteract/heal the damage that estrogens and stress cause and can even alleviate menopause (I've read in Peat articles, as I am not female and don't know for myself).

And again, Sunshine! Lots of it, if you can. The light advice so far is right on but no one mentions sunshine, even though Peat emphasizes it often. That may or may not help with insomnia, but it definitely cures depression in the presence of sugar and saturated fat!

I 2nd the sunlight recommendation. If you can sit near a window that is good. The more daylight I get the better my sleep.
 

natedawggh

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
649
I figured something else out for you fellow insomniacs. I have sleep maintenance insomnia, meaning if I can go to sleep, I wake up easily and have a lot of trouble going back to sleep. I had been taking milk and sugar before bed, and a few nights ago woke up with the regular bout of extreme anxiety, as if someone had shocked me awake. In my sleeplessness i read a peat article and came across this:

"Insulin release is also stimulated by amino acids such as leucine, and insulin stimulates cells to absorb amino acids and to synthesize proteins. Since insulin lowers blood sugar as it disposes of amino acids, eating a large amount of protein without carbohydrate can cause a sharp decrease in blood sugar"

I had no idea that protein causes insulin release, so I was experiencing blood sugar crash from the addition of protein, and obviously when I have low blood sugar my cortisol/stress complex comes out STRONG. So I ate some straight sugar with coconut oil (because saturated fat sustains sugar levels in the blood) and very quickly became sleepy again and slept from 2-8am, when usually I'm up till 5 or 6!!!! I've been increasing my sugar intake (fruit heavy) lowering protein and doing the same sugar/coconut oil at night and I've been falling sleep at 11 and 12 and sleeping soundly!!!

@ birdie... Sorry to hear about CO troubles. It probably has more to do with your starch intake. Or maybe you're taking too much? the gall bladder can only handle so much pure oil at once. Since peat advises against starch and encourages the use of CO, I would choose CO. Peat says IBS is a bowel movement disorder related to seratonin and estrogen, of which starch consumption is a factor. Chips don't bother him because his diet is so good, but it's still a starch.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml
 

aquaman

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
1,297
natedawggh said:
Unless you're getting fresh squeezed OJ, you should totally add tons of other fruit to your diet, especially non-starchy fruits.

+1, I think people have too much of a liquid diet on this forum.

Insomnia, drop coffee and see how you go. Definitely I sleep better without any coffee at all.
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,033
In an Italian paper they measured flavonoid content of different citrus juices and they found
that flavonoid content was almost same in hand squeezed and commercial juices.

I drink about 1 oz of instant coffee in milk with honey added and i am not having any sleep problem
or restlessness. It is an excellent source of magnesium, potassium, niacin, anti oxidant and caffeine.
RP has explained many times how to drink coffee. Either with meal or with added fat and sugar.

Hypothyroid people should be careful with excess fluid intake. RP has written a whole article
on water. Adding extra salt helps with extra liquid or one should wait until their metabolism
is fixed.
 

aquaman

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
1,297
Mittir said:
RP has explained many times how to drink coffee. Either with meal or with added fat and sugar.

Doesn't work for me. People are individuals. He also mentions that in some circumstances coffee can be stressful. Once I go a few days without coffee my sleep improves. Only issue is i LOVE the taste and mental effect of coffee!
 

jyb

Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,783
Location
UK
aquaman said:
Doesn't work for me. People are individuals. He also mentions that in some circumstances coffee can be stressful. Once I go a few days without coffee my sleep improves. Only issue is i LOVE the taste and mental effect of coffee!

Even when restricted to mornings? I had severe insomnia and was also careful about caffeine, light, exercise...anything that could "overstimulate" me. I concluded that a bit of coffee in the morning was ok.

Now, I still avoid coffee in the afternoon if I don't feel in good shape. However if I feel ok and I'm well nourished with sugar refill prior to coffee, then I think coffee in afternoon is ok. I sometime get up to 6-8 expressos during the day without that much effect on sleep, but again that's only if I feel in shape and able to drink coffee without the "overstimulation" effect which is stress.
 

aquaman

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
1,297
Yes coffee drops my body and extremity temps and has a sleep effect even with just one espresso in the morning :(
 

leo

Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Messages
178
" The other thing that has unfolded has been a sudden and significant impairment in vision. I have to wear glasses to read now - so think the glasses Charlie mentioned are important.

Thanks tt - appreciate your advice.[/quote]

4PEATSAKE: Did you ever find out what was causing your vision disturbance? I have noticed also I am having problems lately. REally having to squint to read my iphone, when just a few months ago I was fine. I had my eyes checked just prior to beginning Peat, but everything was fine then. This started about 2-3 weeks into Peating.

Did yours go away on its own or did you change anything in your diet and notice a change?

Thank you.
 
OP
4peatssake

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
62
leo said:
4PEATSAKE: Did you ever find out what was causing your vision disturbance? I have noticed also I am having problems lately. REally having to squint to read my iphone, when just a few months ago I was fine. I had my eyes checked just prior to beginning Peat, but everything was fine then. This started about 2-3 weeks into Peating.

Did yours go away on its own or did you change anything in your diet and notice a change?

Thank you.
The vision impairment was not an effect of "Peating." If anything, finding out that I was hypothyroid and begining to eat along the some of his dietary guidelines has allowed my vision to not get any worse. The vision problem and the cascade of symptoms that struck as I entered menopause is the result of living for five decades with undiagnosed hypothyroidism.

I had not yet begun to supplement thyroid when I began this thread and prior to finding Peat's research in January this year, the wheels were coming in a myriad of directions and I had my finger in many dams. Once I began supplementing thyroid in May, things improved swiftly. I still have much healing to do but the depression is gone and I can sleep.

Oh and thanks for all the advice from others - it's a great community. I do want to say though that coffee is definitely good for me and has never bothered my sleep. It takes time to figure things out and learn what really works for you. I think it' important to enjoy doing this or it's probably not worth it, if it's creating more stress. I took to the information immediately. It was as though I'd finally found what I'd been looking for. But it's work and a lot of trial and error. At least that is what it is with me. There is no quick fix - I have five decades of unhealed hypothyroidism to contend with and the effects of that don't heal overnight. I'm in this for the long haul and am thankful to have found Ray Peat.
 

leo

Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Messages
178
Glad to hear you are better.

With me it coincided with beginning Peat. I don't see any connection with what I'm eating other than maybe too much vitamin a with the liver?
 
OP
4peatssake

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
62
This is from Aging Eyes, Infant Eyes, and Excitable Tissues
Bold and underline are mine.

Ray Peat said:
The eyes and the lungs are sensitive tissues that are easily harmed by inappropriate environmental exposure. They are especially sensitive in infancy and old age.

For 60 years there have been controversies about the cause of retinopathy of prematurity, which has blinded tens of thousands of people.

Degeneration of the retina is the main cause of blindness in old people. Retinal injury is caused by ordinary light, when the eyes are sensitized by melatonin, prolactin, and polyunsaturated fats. Bright light isn't harmful to the retina, even when it is continuous, if the retina isn't sensitized.

Melatonin and prolactin are induced by stress, and darkness is a stress because it impairs mitochondrial energy production.

The polyunsaturated fats which accumulate in the brain and retina damage mitochondria.

Iron, which accumulates prenatally, and then again with aging, reacts with unsaturated fats during stress to destroy cells.

The popular supplements melatonin, tryptophan, fish oils, St. John's wort, and the various omega -3 oils, all increase the risk of retinal light damage and macular degeneration. Serotonin uptake inhibiting antidepressants are suspected to be able to cause it.

Processes similar to those that damage the over-sensitized retina can occur in other cells, as a result of stress. The substances that sensitize the retina to light-damage, can also increase the incidence of new or metastatic cancers.

Iron supplements and the use of supplemental oxygen, especially with a vitamin E deficiency exacerbated by excessive unsaturated fats in the diet, are still commonly used exactly when they can do the most damage.

In my situation too, I can trace the steep decline in vision to buying a new laptop with excessive blue light which I used to work many hours a day. I use f.lux now and it has helped immensely with that. I keep it set to incandescent (2700k) throughout the day and down to candlelight (1900k) at night.
 

aquaman

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2013
Messages
1,297
Charlie said:
K2 has been reported to cause sleep issues and I think it causes sleep issues with me but I haven't gotten that nailed down yet.

I know this is old, but bumping it - when I take my Thorne K2/D even after midday I don't sleep well!
 

juanitacarlos

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2012
Messages
417
I've had great success improving my sleep by turning off all appliances in my room and turning my iphone to Airplane Mode. It immediately helped. I used to have very restless sleep, very aware of noises, always feeling awake at night. That has completely changed and I sleep straight through now.
 

natedawggh

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
649
I know this is long past your post... but after a bout with the flu and taking anti-histamines, I realized that ALL of my sleep problems have been related to histamine. I now am taking benadryl nightly and switched to goats milk (which doesn't contain BCM-7, a powerful histamine producer in most cow's milk), and I sleep soundly EVERY NIGHT from 11 pm - 8 am, and other skin blemishes and a particularly bad white tongue situation has all cleared up. Peat has a lot to say about antihistamines you can read on his articles.
 

livrepensador

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2015
Messages
53
natedawggh said:
I know this is long past your post... but after a bout with the flu and taking anti-histamines, I realized that ALL of my sleep problems have been related to histamine. I now am taking benadryl nightly and switched to goats milk (which doesn't contain BCM-7, a powerful histamine producer in most cow's milk), and I sleep soundly EVERY NIGHT from 11 pm - 8 am, and other skin blemishes and a particularly bad white tongue situation has all cleared up. Peat has a lot to say about antihistamines you can read on his articles.

Hey Nate!
I dont know why but i think the histamine thing is a problem for me too.
Could you please say what have changed in your diet to get better sleep?
1 _ Change to goat´s milk
2 _ Taking benadryl every night? Would not have a better way to reduce histamine? Like avoid certain kinds of foods?

Thanks!
 

Luann

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2016
Messages
1,615
Milk can be a baddd insomnia trigger - well, cow's anyway. Also benadry can leave you with a nasty exhausted feeling the next day, it's better to find the trigger and eliminate it if possible.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom