Worsening Insomnia. Hyper Or Hypothyroid?

[bluewren]

I am a 57 yo female struggling with insomnia, plus palpitations and discomfort over chest area, and up into my throat. I feel wired at night, and anxious. I managed 2 hours sleep last night
I have been following a Peat approach re diet for 2 years, and was doing well. Once Cynoplus and Cytomel became unavailable,and I changed meds, the wheels fell off. I began NDT 2 months ago, 2 grains daily, in divided doses, and a few mcg T3 several times a day. After the blood tests (see below)
I increased NDT by half a grain, daily.

Blood tests Nov 15

TSH 0.11 L
T4 8.6 (9-19) L
T3 4.6 (2.6-6)
RT3 129 (140-540)
Cholesterol 6.8 (3.9-5.5) H
Trigs 1.6 (.5-1.7)
Prolactin 274 (85-500)

Diet;
2500-3000 cals. Milk,cheese, eggs, shellfish, liver, O/J, coffee,lamb,beef, fish, potatoes,ice cream, gelatin, grapes, peaches, cherries (atm).

Supplements

NDT 2.5 grains
Progestene
Theanine
Magnesium
Eggshell powder
Taurine

Temps 35.9 to 36.6 Pulse 70-78
I can't think of any more useful info. Insomnia and heart palps are my worst problems.....am I hyper or hypothyroid?

 

[tara]

I don't know, but I think if my TSH was at 0.11, I wouldn't be increasing my thyroid dose. Excess T3 has been associated with heart palpitations and suchlike. The body only produces about 3-4mcg T3 an hour. What happens if you don't take the extra T3 at all for a day, or you take no more than 1-2 mcg at a time?

 

[juanitacarlos]

Is it worth dropping some of the supplements to see if they are having an adverse affect on you?

 

[marikay]

Hi. Fifty-five year old female here having the same problems after running low on cynoplus and cynomel. It's a digestion issue.

Here's how I fixed it:

Carrot salad (shredded lengthwise with potato peeler) with coconut oil (or olive oil) non-iodized salt and some white vinegar every (and I do mean every) afternoon on an empty stomach. Don't miss even one day of this.

Cascara (bought from health food store) a couple times a week. (I only need one capsule, but you can take two if need be.)

Increase vitamin A intake to at least 24,000 international units.

Try to fall asleep laying on left side.

Haven't had the problem now for several weeks (even if I have a glass of wine in the evening). The key is the carrot salad.

Best Regards...and good luck

 

[sweetpeat]

If you were doing well before with the cynoplus and cytomel, maybe your body does better on the synthetics rather than the NDT for some reason. It sounds like you still have some t3-only meds. Perhaps you could try switching some t4-only (like synthroid) for the NDT and duplicate what you were doing with the cynoplus and cynomel.

 

[bluewren]

Thanks for the replies!

Tara: 1-3 mcg T3 makes me warm. If I miss a day, my temps fall.
TTramone....yes, I have cut right back on supps. Vit K2, Vit A and D and Pregnenolone made my insomnia worse.
Marikay....you reminded me about the carrot salad! Thanks! I have the timer on so I don't forget to have it. I'll do this every day from now on.
Sweetpeat...I agree with you. I think the NDT is not so good for me. I have Novotiral here to try, and will start slowly with it. I really hope for the return of Cynoplus and Cytomel...I know it's wishful thinking

 

[marikay]

My source at farmaciasdelnino.mx tells me that the Grossman rep told him there would be limited amounts of cynoplus and cynomel available by late December (yay).

Bag breathing and the carrot salad are the two cheapest Peat-type things a person can do. Together they make the most positive difference with the least side effects.

And yet, those are the two things I almost always let slide first. Go figure.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Hi bluewren,

I don't know if this has any bearing in your situation, but I found that (after two years of Peating) taking any T4 tends to give me feelings of too much thyroid and also suppresses my body temp a bit. I don't get palpitations per se, more a feeling like my heart is being squeezed, plus insomnia and muscle weakness/faint muscle tremor too.

I tapered down off the T4/T3 combo (Cynoplus) and have found that a small dose of T3 twice a day works much better for me....I don't know why. The chest discomfort went away in two weeks or less. Sleep improved even quicker, as I recall. I wake up warmer, 97.8 to 98.0, and get to 98.6 to 99.1 much quicker in the day.

I hope someone can shed some light on WHY this happens and especially hope that you quickly find what works for you.

 

[HDD]

Stumbled upon this and though it's not the same situation, it could be applicable.

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5532

HD: OK, alright, Dr Peat I had a question actually from a person who wrote to me who said that they were unable to call in because they were outside the country and I think by the time I responded to them to ask them what country they were in it was probably already too late. And I have come across this with other people anyway in our own practice and working with you, I think I understand the situation but I’d like to hear it from you. It was particularly with a woman who said, that she had hypothyroidism, symptoms including depression, weight gain, cold hands and feet, dry hair and skin, TSH (her thyroid stimulating hormone) was 1.6 which wasn't super high but I know you like it to be as close to zero as possible and her T3 was 3.5. She said, she used to take Armour thyroid she was prescribed this by a Doctor and it helped with symptoms for a few months but she said that when she tried to supplement with T3 or a T3/T4 combination she developed anxiety and tachycardia. She said she's experimented with doses as small even as 1mg of T3 and she said it would send her into a hyperthyroid type state, I think that's kind of anxiety and palpitations, it maybe an adrenalin thing but she said is there anything she can do to better tolerate thyroid supplementation. She was currently taking zinc gluconate, Vitamin D, Vitamin K, she's using 4000iu of Vitamin D, she's using Progest-e the second half of her menstrual cycle, aspirin, magnesium and calcium. She also eats liver, weekly. What do you think might cause that in a person who previously might have used thyroid and then suddenly becomes what they call sensitive to it and unable to use it?

RP: Sometimes I think it's that the product has changed. European forms of thyroid supplement seem to be very unpredictable, but if it's for sure the same product, then usually a magnesium deficiency can cause exactly those symptoms because the thyroid makes your cells able to use magnesium and so take it up, but a big organ like your skeletal muscles and bones can take up so much from your blood that your brain and heart and such have trouble getting the magnesium they need to respond to the thyroid, and then you get an exaggerated stress and adrenalin reaction. And low cholesterol is another limiting factor; if you have very low cholesterol you can't respond to increasing your thyroid because one of the basic functions of thyroid is to turn cholesterol into progesterone, pregnenolone and DHEA.

HD: OK, so what kind of dose of magnesium would you think for that kind of person would be suitable?

RP: About 100mg at a time as you take the say 1-2 mcg of cytomel, or cynomel. 100mg will be plenty for the first 2 or 3 hours of responding to 1 or 2 micrograms.


RP: Fruit juices and coffee. I think if you want a really intense source you can boil leaves like kale or beet greens or something just for two or three minutes, and the green water that comes out quickly is very concentrated in magnesium and calcium. That's a very, pretty safe supplement. Coffee and fruit juices are practical and something you can do every day.

 

[bluewren]

post 113533 Hi bluewren,

I don't know if this has any bearing in your situation, but I found that (after two years of Peating) taking any T4 tends to give me feelings of too much thyroid and also suppresses my body temp a bit. I don't get palpitations per se, more a feeling like my heart is being squeezed, plus insomnia and muscle weakness/faint muscle tremor too.

I tapered down off the T4/T3 combo (Cynoplus) and have found that a small dose of T3 twice a day works much better for me....I don't know why. The chest discomfort went away in two weeks or less. Sleep improved even quicker, as I recall. I wake up warmer, 97.8 to 98.0, and get to 98.6 to 99.1 much quicker in the day.

I hope someone can shed some light on WHY this happens and especially hope that you quickly find what works for you.

Thanks, TBP. This is interesting. My Doctor advised me to increase T4 meds because of my blood test result showing low T4. I have not complied yet because I don't know how well I am converting T4 to T3, and don't really know HOW to tell! This Doc at least looks at T4 and T3 levels, and not just TSH.
I find it odd that my cholesterol is very high with such low thyroid numbers.

Anyway, I slept better last night, thank goodness: I was getting quite panicky after many weeks of insomnia, and that heart-squeeze feeling. It is hard to think logically and rationally in that situation. I am very grateful for the suggestions you good folk have made.

Many thanks.

 

[bluewren]

post 113571 Stumbled upon this and though it's not the same situation, it could be applicable.

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5532

HD: OK, alright, Dr Peat I had a question actually from a person who wrote to me who said that they were unable to call in because they were outside the country and I think by the time I responded to them to ask them what country they were in it was probably already too late. And I have come across this with other people anyway in our own practice and working with you, I think I understand the situation but I’d like to hear it from you. It was particularly with a woman who said, that she had hypothyroidism, symptoms including depression, weight gain, cold hands and feet, dry hair and skin, TSH (her thyroid stimulating hormone) was 1.6 which wasn't super high but I know you like it to be as close to zero as possible and her T3 was 3.5. She said, she used to take Armour thyroid she was prescribed this by a Doctor and it helped with symptoms for a few months but she said that when she tried to supplement with T3 or a T3/T4 combination she developed anxiety and tachycardia. She said she's experimented with doses as small even as 1mg of T3 and she said it would send her into a hyperthyroid type state, I think that's kind of anxiety and palpitations, it maybe an adrenalin thing but she said is there anything she can do to better tolerate thyroid supplementation. She was currently taking zinc gluconate, Vitamin D, Vitamin K, she's using 4000iu of Vitamin D, she's using Progest-e the second half of her menstrual cycle, aspirin, magnesium and calcium. She also eats liver, weekly. What do you think might cause that in a person who previously might have used thyroid and then suddenly becomes what they call sensitive to it and unable to use it?

RP: Sometimes I think it's that the product has changed. European forms of thyroid supplement seem to be very unpredictable, but if it's for sure the same product, then usually a magnesium deficiency can cause exactly those symptoms because the thyroid makes your cells able to use magnesium and so take it up, but a big organ like your skeletal muscles and bones can take up so much from your blood that your brain and heart and such have trouble getting the magnesium they need to respond to the thyroid, and then you get an exaggerated stress and adrenalin reaction. And low cholesterol is another limiting factor; if you have very low cholesterol you can't respond to increasing your thyroid because one of the basic functions of thyroid is to turn cholesterol into progesterone, pregnenolone and DHEA.

HD: OK, so what kind of dose of magnesium would you think for that kind of person would be suitable?

RP: About 100mg at a time as you take the say 1-2 mcg of cytomel, or cynomel. 100mg will be plenty for the first 2 or 3 hours of responding to 1 or 2 micrograms.


RP: Fruit juices and coffee. I think if you want a really intense source you can boil leaves like kale or beet greens or something just for two or three minutes, and the green water that comes out quickly is very concentrated in magnesium and calcium. That's a very, pretty safe supplement. Coffee and fruit juices are practical and something you can do every day.

Thanks, HDD.
This is something I CAN do: increase Magnesium intake. It was good to read that RP quote. Thanks.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

HDD is spot on, MORE magnesium....I LOVE the do-ability of taking a smaller dose of magnesium WITH thyroid meds, I'd never read or heard of that til now. Bravo HDD!!!

I agree with marikay too as I noticed that I need somewhere around 25,000 and 30,000 vitamin A, I suspect this is due to increased metabolism.

You ladies are so smart I hope you're sleeping better bluewren.

 

[Stilgar]

Have you checked your iron? Two years on Peat, you could be a bit low. Can cause low T4 for sure.

 

[bluewren]

post 114317 Have you checked your iron? Two years on Peat, you could be a bit low. Can cause low T4 for sure.

I have high iron levels, for which I donate blood 3 monthly, and low ferritin.

 

[Stilgar]

Ah, not relevant then. :)

 

[James_001]

post 114271 HDD is spot on, MORE magnesium....I LOVE the do-ability of taking a smaller dose of magnesium WITH thyroid meds, I'd never read or heard of that til now. Bravo HDD!!!

I agree with marikay too as I noticed that I need somewhere around 25,000 and 30,000 vitamin A, I suspect this is due to increased metabolism.

You ladies are so smart I hope you're sleeping better bluewren.

Did more magnesium help?

 

[thebigpeatowski]

YES!!! In the past I was not able to take magnesium orally, my guts simply could not handle it, so I tried using magnesium oil topically....you know that mag chloride brine from the Ancient Zechstein Sea....UGH, I hate it! I truly DESPISE the way it makes my skin feel so I gave up on it. Unfortunately I have nearly half a gallon of the stuff :?

I think I must rarely eat enough magnesium in my diet or perhaps it's an absorption issue??? At any rate, after really trying to pay attention I decided that the "heart squeeze" feeling was definitely related to my mag deficient diet and an increased need for magnesium when I take my thyroid meds.

I started with one rounded teaspoon (this amount is a half dose according to the product package) of Natural Calm ionic magnesium citrate powder per day taken WITH thyroid meds and it was an instant cure, no more weird heart pain. I now take that same dose twice a day (for a total of 325 mg.) and am feeling superb. I am thrilled to be able to tolerate taking magnesium orally.

 

[DaveFoster]

Thanks for the replies!

Tara: 1-3 mcg T3 makes me warm. If I miss a day, my temps fall.
TTramone....yes, I have cut right back on supps. Vit K2, Vit A and D and Pregnenolone made my insomnia worse.
Marikay....you reminded me about the carrot salad! Thanks! I have the timer on so I don't forget to have it. I'll do this every day from now on.
Sweetpeat...I agree with you. I think the NDT is not so good for me. I have Novotiral here to try, and will start slowly with it. I really hope for the return of Cynoplus and Cytomel...I know it's wishful thinking

Ray has warned against switching to T4 only. He thinks T4 is "appropriate" if taking T3, but a high ratio of T3:T4 is desirable. 1:3 or so.

 

[EIRE24]

Hi. Fifty-five year old female here having the same problems after running low on cynoplus and cynomel. It's a digestion issue.

Here's how I fixed it:

Carrot salad (shredded lengthwise with potato peeler) with coconut oil (or olive oil) non-iodized salt and some white vinegar every (and I do mean every) afternoon on an empty stomach. Don't miss even one day of this.

Cascara (bought from health food store) a couple times a week. (I only need one capsule, but you can take two if need be.)

Increase vitamin A intake to at least 24,000 international units.

Try to fall asleep laying on left side.

Haven't had the problem now for several weeks (even if I have a glass of wine in the evening). The key is the carrot salad.

Best Regards...and good luck

What way and which supplement vitamin A do you take?