Kocky777´s Insomnia thread - appreciate your help and wisdom

[Kocky777]

First of all, I am very happy to be here. This is my very first post.
I´ve been reading the Ray Peat Forum for approx. 1 year as a non-member and have learned some RP basics.
However I am struggling with severe insomnia right now (only can fall asleep at 4 or 5 pm and my sleep quality sucks) . Hopefully you wonderful people can help me regaining my sleep. Thank you so much in advance!!!

Here is some data about me and my issues:

- 37 years old, male, Germany
- hypothyroid symptoms, temperatures mostly too low: 36,5/97,7 morning, 36,7/98,06 afternoon (though I sometimes achieve 37/98,6 for 1 or 2 two hours but not that often), evening: 36,5/97,7
- despite of my hypothyroid temperatures I have an up-to-date thyroid panel which suggests that I was somehow hyperthyroid on 4 grains of NDT:

free T3 * 5.96 (range 2.00 - 4.40 pg/ml)
free T4 16,70 (range 9.30 - 17.33pg/ml)
TSH <0.01 (range 0.27 - 4.20) obviously suppressed by the NDT.

Prolactin 8.99 (range 4.04 - 15.20)
Testosterone 5.09 (range 2.18 - 9.06)
Progesterone 0.2 (range < 0.2)

Liver: gamma-GT * 86 (range <60)
GOT (ASAT) 23 (range <50)
GPT (ALAT) 48 (range <50)

I had no sleeping issues for a while on 4 grains of NDT, then Insomnia kicked in. After the thyroid panel I got scared a little bit and dropped the NDT to 2 grains (maybe too quickly but I was scared due to the elevated gamma-GT and I read on the interwebs that too much thyroid supplementation can increase gamma-GT).

Now I am probably 2 weeks on 2 grains NDT and sleep is still crap. I am tired but wired.

I am going to get a new thyroid panel in another 2 weeks.
Until then I am trying to improve the situation with more carbs and protein (I have also read the wonderful "**** Portion Control" by forum user natedawg, especially the chapter about Insomnia) and try to improve liver glycogen during the day and for the night. But until now eating more carbs, protein and good fats (butter) and the obligatory OJ with salt or milk with honey has not helped at all.

Doxylamin Succinat and Diphenhydramin do not work at all. In Germany, I cannot get Cypro without a prescription.

Mirtazapin (I was able to get my hands on one tablet because of my gf) helps well but I am a zombie the next day. Very interestingly, yesterday, Mirtazapin seems to have lowered my cortisol powerfully (have also found forum threads about Mirtazapin and cortisol and temperatures here) so that my thyroid hormones could work better and my temperatures were 37,2/98,96 almost the whole next day, even though I felt like a zombie until late afternoon.

Progesterone cream at night doesn´t work for sleep.

Pregnenolone cream and/or oral at night don´t work for sleep.

Aspirin doesn´t work for sleep.

Methlyene Blue doesn´t work for sleep.

I had a phase where I seemed to have sleep every day with oral hydrogen peroxide ingestion (very much diluted of course), maybe because hp cleared endotoxin? I also have to reapply the daily carrot again to fight endotoxin.

Right now, I do not know what to do. I am not depressed, happy with my job and girlfriend, but I just cannot sleep. :-(

Supplements that I take:

NDT - 2 grains at the moment
Pregnenolone - 50mg in the morning orally plus pregnenolone cream
Tudca - 250 mg in the morning
Silymarin for liver, sometimes NAC for liver
caffeine for liver (2 mugs of coffee, 400mg caffeine pills)
Thiamine HCL
B2
B3
B5
B Complex

Vit D (levels are very good, due to years of supplementation, circa 100ng/dl)
Magnesium Citrate
Vitamin K2 (MK4 and MK7)
Calcium (2grams of Calciumcitrate, also copious amounts of milk and joghurt or kefir)
Vitamin E - 800 iu
Vitamin A - 10.000 iu (I seem to have had success with sleep with high dosages of Retinol, 50.000 (I think, Haidut had a nice thread showing that mega doses lower cortisol strongly and help sleep) but I am afraid of using so much Retinol more often
Vitamin C

I hope my writings make sense and that it was not too confusing/unstructured.
Thank you so much in advance for your help and I am looking forward to lots of wisdom, learning and fruitful interaction in this forum!!!

 

[youngsinatra]

First thing I'd do is cut back on the NDT for sure - down to 2 grains. (I see you already doing that, which is great!)

Secondly I'd strictly cut out ALL supplements for 2 weeks straight. There are so many physiological interactions in response to supplements and you likely don't need all those supplements, if any at all. I really believe that most supplements do more harm than good, and I feel my best without supplements. (and I have a full supplement graveyard!)
Cutting them out oftentimes resolve some lingering mysterious issue.

Thirdly I'd only consume 2 cups of coffee in the morning, until your system rebalances and after you fixed your insomnia - then you could try more coffee in the early afternoon.

 

[Peatress]

Magnesium Citrate and Calcium Citrate - it's possible you are not absorbing those minerals because of the citrate. Dr. Peat said citrate causes calcium loss. See the transcript of the interview below. Calcium deficiency alone can cause insomnia. Try eggshell calcium or calcium carbonate. For magnesium, carbonate works or magnesium glycinate

KMUD: Hair Loss, Inflammation and Osteoporosis (2012)

Raymond Peat, Ph.D. HAIR LOSS, INFLAMMATION AND OSTEOPOROSIS KMUD “Ask Your Herb Doctor” (2012) HD - Andrew Murray and Sarah Johannesen-Murray RP - Ray Peat HD: Dr Peat, could you please let listeners know about your academic background? RP: I studied biology at the University of Oregon...

raypeatforum.com

You could be pushing your metabolism too hard with all those supplements.

 

[youngsinatra]

@Peatful always has some good ideas and contributions. (By the way do you still don't take any supplements? Last time I've read a post of you where you wrote that you haven't taken supplements in 2 or 3 years if I remember correctly)

 

[Peatful]

@Peatful always has some good ideas and contributions. (By the way do you still don't take any supplements? Last time I've read a post of you where you wrote that you haven't taken supplements in 2 or 3 years if I remember correctly)

Hey
Im here
Responding to another post and running super late

Thx for inviting me in @youngsinatra
And as my day progresses
I look forward to reading and possibly offering anything of littlest value
Or at least a different angle

 

[Peatful]

@Peatful always has some good ideas and contributions. (By the way do you still don't take any supplements? Last time I've read a post of you where you wrote that you haven't taken supplements in 2 or 3 years if I remember correctly)

Question to me or the OP regardless supplements?

If me

Correct
I take nothing

Maybe epsom salt bath or magnesium spray once a quarter
Or aspirin here and there to help my cycle with high estrogen peaks

 

[maillol]

Try to get your hemoglobin measured. I get insomnia if mine falls below 140.

 

[Peatress]

Try to get your hemoglobin measured. I get insomnia if mine falls below 140.

How do you maintain a level of 140, do you take supplements or just with diet? Thanks

 

[Peatful]

Until then I am trying to improve the situation with more carbs and protein (I have also read the wonderful "**** Portion Control" by forum user natedawg, especially the chapter about Insomnia) and try to improve liver glycogen during the day and for the night.

I don’t know his content
But this is not a bad idea with the data we have


However
To truly understand
We need the following data

-who put you on four grains? For how long at this dose?
- why did you originally think something was wrong with you? Before the insomnia? Or was that your only complaint?
- what is a daily kcal or even better your macro breakdown?
- what was your diet history? Did you come from a paleo or keto past? If so how long?
- what is your waking temperature? How about 20 minutes after a meal in a relaxed state?
- desk job? Stressful job? Second shift work? Outdoor job?
- are you working out or participating in sport?


Let us know

Best

 

[Layne]

Hawthorn berries helping a LOT with sleep​

Good luck!

P.S. -- DISCUSSION: Search results for query: sleep

 

[maillol]

How do you maintain a level of 140, do you take supplements or just with diet? Thanks

140 is low normal for a man so I'm usually ok unless I give blood or do something unusual e.g. I had a very cinnamon heavy banana bread recently and that dropped me to 136 I assume because of the coumarin in cinnamon. Then on another occasion I got bitten by several horseflys and that dropped me to 126, most likely the immune response. Hemoglobin meters are cheap and it's interesting to monitor.

 

[Kocky777]

First thing I'd do is cut back on the NDT for sure - down to 2 grains. (I see you already doing that, which is great!)

Secondly I'd strictly cut out ALL supplements for 2 weeks straight. There are so many physiological interactions in response to supplements and you likely don't need all those supplements, if any at all. I really believe that most supplements do more harm than good, and I feel my best without supplements. (and I have a full supplement graveyard!)
Cutting them out oftentimes resolve some lingering mysterious issue.

Thirdly I'd only consume 2 cups of coffee in the morning, until your system rebalances and after you fixed your insomnia - then you could try more coffee in the early afternoon.

Thank you so much for your reply and your tipps! :)
I´m a bit afraid of cutting out all my beloved supplements... :-/ I could imagine that, if one day most health issues are at bay. But you could be right about abstaining from supplements. Can you elaborate on your success story with cutting out the supps?
But I am definitely going to cut down my caffeine intake!

 

[Kocky777]

Magnesium Citrate and Calcium Citrate - it's possible you are not absorbing those minerals because of the citrate. Dr. Peat said citrate causes calcium loss. See the transcript of the interview below. Calcium deficiency alone can cause insomnia. Try eggshell calcium or calcium carbonate. For magnesium, carbonate works or magnesium glycinate

KMUD: Hair Loss, Inflammation and Osteoporosis (2012)

Raymond Peat, Ph.D. HAIR LOSS, INFLAMMATION AND OSTEOPOROSIS KMUD “Ask Your Herb Doctor” (2012) HD - Andrew Murray and Sarah Johannesen-Murray RP - Ray Peat HD: Dr Peat, could you please let listeners know about your academic background? RP: I studied biology at the University of Oregon...

raypeatforum.com

You could be pushing your metabolism too hard with all those supplements.

Thank you so much, Peatress! :)
According to your idea, I have now substituted the magnesium citrate with magnesium glycinate and the calcium citrate with calcium carbonate.

 

[Kocky777]

Try to get your hemoglobin measured. I get insomnia if mine falls below 140.

Thank you! :)
Will do that in about 2 weeks with the next thyroid bloods.

 

[Kocky777]

How do you maintain a level of 140, do you take supplements or just with diet? Thanks

Very good question! I am also interested in that! Can you elaborate on that, @maillol ? EDIT: Oh, saw maillol´s answer just now. Sry!

 

[Kocky777]

Hawthorn berries helping a LOT with sleep​

Good luck!

P.S. -- DISCUSSION: Search results for query: sleep

Thank you, Layne!
I have ordered Hawthorn berries on Amazon and will try them. :)

 

[Kocky777]

I don’t know his content
But this is not a bad idea with the data we have


However
To truly understand
We need the following data

-who put you on four grains? For how long at this dose?
- why did you originally think something was wrong with you? Before the insomnia? Or was that your only complaint?
- what is a daily kcal or even better your macro breakdown?
- what was your diet history? Did you come from a paleo or keto past? If so how long?
- what is your waking temperature? How about 20 minutes after a meal in a relaxed state?
- desk job? Stressful job? Second shift work? Outdoor job?
- are you working out or participating in sport?


Let us know

Best

Dear Peatful, thank you so much for your input!

- I put myself on four grains (maybe an idiot move, but I read here on the forum and on StoptheThyroidMadness that some people need way more than 2 grains of NDT and I didn´t feel that bad on 4 grains).
- I´ve struggled with hypothyroidism, occasional insomnia and chronic fatigue for approx. 7 years. I´ve been exposed to black mold and I also had lots of stress in my life (like many other people of course).
- I have to start tracking with cronometer, but will give an update on detailed daily calories ASAP. Regarding the macros: I drink a huge whey protein shake every day, so 80-100 grams of Protein are assured. Recently, I´ve been upping my protein because I´ve read here on the forum that some dude has successfully overcome his insomnia because he upped his protein to 200 grams a day. Also, I eat many carbs a day. But of course, I need to give you precise numbers, will do ASAP.
- My diet history is terrible: During university I delved into bodybuilding and idiotically had a low fat AND low carb diet. Later I used a keto diet.
- My waking temperature is 36,5/97,7, I have to check the temperature after a meal, but will provide the info ASAP.
- I am a teacher. I love my job and my students but due to flaws in the educational system and the workload it is sometimes very stressful. (Of course, other people have stressful jobs, too.)
- I work out once a week, full body training (deadlifts, benchpress, lat pulls, curls, shrugs, etc.) Sauna afterwards. I want to keep training to once a week to protect my body of too much stress.

Thank you and I´m looking forward to further advice!

 

[Kocky777]

Little update:

I am now on 800mg phosphatidylserine (300mg in the morning, 300mg afternoon, 200mg before bed) because I suspect that my cortisol is too high and one of the main culprits for my insomnia. I have read here on the forum that some people were quite successful with phosphatidylserine. Also have taken an Epsom salt bath before sleep.
Anyways, tonight I have slept maybe 4 hours and was only able to sleep at approximately 3 or 4 a.m. I feel a little bit better today, maybe the ps is working and successfully dropping cortisol levels.
I´m going to stay on ps for a while.

Thank you for your input and have a great day and weekend!

 

[Kocky777]

140 is low normal for a man so I'm usually ok unless I give blood or do something unusual e.g. I had a very cinnamon heavy banana bread recently and that dropped me to 136 I assume because of the coumarin in cinnamon. Then on another occasion I got bitten by several horseflys and that dropped me to 126, most likely the immune response. Hemoglobin meters are cheap and it's interesting to monitor.

Thanks, very interesting indeed. Will definitely check my hemoglobin with the next blood panel!

 

[Jonk]

I've been big on digestion lately, but at the end of the day (no pun intended) you need to experiment and see what makes you relax. Stretching, walking and some light abdominal massage might be helpful. Ideally you'd want optimal co2 levels to make moving your body a relaxing activity. Let's say you have some energetic blockage, not enough nutrients like sugar and salt - OR enough nutrients but irritated intestines, movement of any kind can easily become stressful.

I'm not a fan of prolonged use of laxatives but as a diagnostic it can be helpful just to see how you feel from it. Also trying to be mindful of how you feel after eating certain foods, which is kind of hard with a varied diet and lots of supplements.