Hypnic Jerks

[sunflower1]

Hi All,
I'm the gal who was having a nervous breakdown some months back. I'm happy to say I am slowly coming out the other side of it.
Literally the only symptom I have now that I'm concerned about are the Hypnic Jerks ... And frankly thats really enough to be concerned about. I thought they were due to adrenaline but I seem to still be getting them even though I've managed to get my adrenaline and cortisol under control with enough sugar and salt and regular drinks..

The jerks appear to come and go and get worse around my period.. I've been trying to work out what causes them but it seems no one truly knows. Suggestions are low thyroid, Anaemia, Electrolyte imbalance.

So whilst I know its important for me to be moving in the direction of more Health, Resting and Eating enough. It's pretty hard to truly get my health back until I can sleep OK.. So this feels like a major hurdle !

I have had blood work done recently and it doe look like I am anaemic but I know Ray doesn't suggest Iron supplementation.

I'm happy to post my blood work here if anyone thinks they might be able to read it. I was in reference range but some of my iron panels came back borderline ...

I'm currently taking Liver caps, Mag, b3 and potassium . Doing 3-4 teaspoons of salt a day
calories are up around 2800-3200 a day, female,, 5,7 and 132 lbs
Morning temp is usually around 98f and pulse 64bpm
after breakfast 98.4f and 71 bpm

Pretty much all peaty, have occasional white rice, and do eat red meat 1-2 x a day with glycine

Anyone else have this ad cleared it up or know what the causes might be..

Not taking any t3 or NDT yet..

Thank you

 

[treelady]

My husband jerks during his sleep, mostly his legs. We found that taking 6oz of tonic water before bed really helps. It has a tiny bit of quinine in it which relaxes muscles. Quinine is serious stuff - you don't want too much. I muscle tested various types of tonic water and the only one that tested good for us was Fever-Tree Tonic water. http://www.fever-tree.com/

 

[narouz]

I've had those.
The way I tried to describe it to friends is
that it is like you're sinking down (as in underwater--but not in a bad way, like drowning),
sinking into sleep,
and just as you're about to go to sleep...
BING!
...you rocket back up through the surface again.
Rinse.
Repeat.

I think, at the time, I thought the cause was too much thyroid supplement.
I kinda lose track of all my weird afflictions .
Maybe it was back before I discovered Peat
and my mainstream endocrinologist had overdosed me on Synthroid.
He had me pretty quickly on 200mcg/day.

(I would just add--
and you know I'm not making fun of your troubles, sunflower,
because as you see I've struggled with the same thing and I know it's no fun--
but
Hypnic Jerks
would be a cool name for a band.
We've had a run of those lately!
Morning Wood Project...damn fine band name!)

 

[charlie]

I have had these jerks prior to Peat after drinking the Green Pastures fish oil. Can only imagine all the metabolic damage that caused. Regenerative energy for the win.

The second time I have had these was in the beginning of supplementing thyroid.

The jerks can rock you, I just tried to accept it as best I could and not stress out when it happened and keep digging away at this metabolic hole I found myself in. You will get there, keep at it.

 

[charlie]

post 107221 I have had blood work done recently and it doe look like I am anaemic but I know Ray doesn't suggest Iron supplementation.

Did you do the tests that Ray Peat suggests to get a better picture of iron saturation?

post 107221 The jerks appear to come and go and get worse around my period..

Estrogen overload?

 

[sunflower1]

I'm not sure which test peat suggested but had pretty much every Iron panel there was .
Sat transferrin was 21% reference range was 20-50
Ferritin was 25ng reference range was 11-200
Iron was 85ug ref range 30-160
Total Iron binding capacity was 402 ug ref range (228-428)

I've read the the Sat transferrin was the most exact one and I'm borderline on that .

Copper was also on the lower end of scale as was Ceruloplasm

 

[sunflower1]

Thanks for all your replies, Yeah things are much better now than they were 4 months ago, IF I can just get this sleep issue sorted. I did manage 6 hours last night which was better than 2 nights back which was hell.. AND Yeah, It's enough to drive you nuts. I think the CBD oil helped with the jerks but my source left island unless i wanna pay top dollar..

I will check out the tonic water.. Thanks

 

[answersfound]

Wow. I had no clue what a "Hypnic jerk" was until I looked it up and realized I have it to. I've developed it recently, but I just assumed it would go away when metabolism was fully healed. I had no clue how to describe it. FWIW my doctor recommended I supplement iron but I emailed Dr. Peat and he thought my iron stores were fine. I think my saturation was 33%. Sorry I can't provide more insight to your situation, but maybe try and raise your temps to 99 and see what happens?

 

[answersfound]

post 107254 I've had those.
The way I tried to describe it to friends is
that it is like you're sinking down (as in underwater--but not in a bad way, like drowning),
sinking into sleep,
and just as you're about to go to sleep...
BING!
...you rocket back up through the surface again.
Rinse.
Repeat.

I think, at the time, I thought the cause was too much thyroid supplement.
I kinda lose track of all my weird afflictions .
Maybe it was back before I discovered Peat
and my mainstream endocrinologist had overdosed me on Synthroid.
He had me pretty quickly on 200mcg/day.

(I would just add--
and you know I'm not making fun of your troubles, sunflower,
because as you see I've struggled with the same thing and I know it's no fun--
but
Hypnic Jerks
would be a cool name for a band.
We've had a run of those lately!
Morning Wood Project...damn fine band name!)

Yep. It almost feels like if you were to continue to fall asleep and not wake up you would die. It was scary when it first started happening.

 

[DankMemes]

I get these too, just as I'm falling asleep and my mind is wandering and i feel like I'm entering a dream I'll suddenly trip over and suddenly I'm wide awake again.

This usually happens on days that I workout.

 

[narouz]

Yep. It almost feels like if you were to continue to fall asleep and not wake up you would die. It was scary when it first started happening.

For me, when those "jerks" were happening,
it wasn't that the haven of sleep seemed scary,
like I was going to die.
I wanted to go to sleep.
But as I drifted "down" toward sleep,
right at the verge of crossing over into the Land of Sleep,
I would get a sudden panic-y feeling and rocket back "up" into wakefulness....

Sunflower...do you take thyroid supps?
For me, it was artificially induced hyperthyroidism.
So...you might consider that.
Peat has said that, oddly, thyroid supplementation can help hyperthyroidism.
Others please chime in, but I believe he talked about this on a radio interview.
He was talking about himself.
Way I recall,
he became hyperthyroid at a certain period in his life
and resolved it with a little thyroid supplement....

 

[charlie]

post 107305 This usually happens on days that I workout.

This goes with my hypotheses that these hypnic jerks come around a very stressful time.

post 107310 For me, it was artificially induced hyperthyroidism.

What was your heartbeat and pulse at that time? How did you feel?

I think the "hyperthyroidism" induced from thyroid supplementing that many talk about, including myself at one time is just a really stressed out state from too much adrenaline sensitivity, too much cortisol, maybe even too much generative energy kicking in, basically more thyroid supplement then the body can handle at that time.

 

[narouz]

What was your heartbeat and pulse at that time? How did you feel?

I think the "hyperthyroidism" induced from thyroid supplementing that many talk about, including myself at one time is just a really stressed out state from too much adrenaline sensitivity, too much cortisol, maybe even too much generative energy kicking in, basically more thyroid supplement then the body can handle at that time.

It was before Peat, Charlie, in my experience of those jerks.
So wasn't aware of heart rate/pulse much, then.
But I went to a somewhat more thoughtful doctor,
he did tests,
and said he thought I was "over-prescribed,"
and commented somewhat disdainfully that 200mcg Synthroid was a giant dose.

Once I backed down on the dose to about 2&1/2grains NDT
those jerks abated.
I do remember, at the time--when on the 200mcg--
that I also had that "tired but wired" feeling.

This was all years ago...like 8 years ago or so, when first diagnosed hypothyroid.

 

[charlie]

post 107317 But I went to a somewhat more thoughtful doctor,
he did tests,
and said he thought I was "over-prescribed,"
and commented somewhat disdainfully that 200mcg Synthroid was a giant dose.

Once I backed down on the dose to about 2&1/2grains NDT
those jerks abated.
I do remember, at the time--when on the 200mcg--
that I also had that "tired but wired" feeling.

Yeh just too much thyroid. Too become true hyperthyroid with the temps, pulse and feeling great, could take some time.

 

[Mittir]

I used to have occasional Hypnic Jerks before peating. But, it was not bad enough to disrupt sleep.
Are you doing raw carrot salad? RP mentioned that antibiotics and raw carrot salad
resolved PMS related problem where low thyroid is prominent due to high estrogen.

Estrogen depletes glycogen storage. It is possible you are having high adrenaline at night
due to lack of glycogen. Low thyroid also lowers the ability of retain minerals.
Eating raw carrot salad few hours before sunset helps to lower endotoxin load at night.
You can also try cooked bamboo shoots or well cooked white button mushroom for similar effect.

I think your problem is related to low thyroid which is causing low glycogen, high stress hormones
and low mineral. You can also try low dose tetracycline if carrot salad does not help.
Progesterone and thyroid should help with this problem. If you do not want to use
thyroid supplement, chicken neck or fish head soup can supply some natural thyroid.

Is your hemoglobin normal? He thinks iron status is not an issue if blood hemoglobin
is in normal range.

 

[sunflower1]

Mittir, yes hemoglobin came back in normal range..

I think you are right, My cortisol went up a long with adrenaline last night. I took pulse before I laid down to sleep and temp, 98/72.
Tossed and turned for 2 hours, woke up temp 98.6/84
Not sure how to get this down, will get back to regular carrot salads as I have been eating them sporadically.. Not sure how to get my liver to start storing glycogen again, have been taking taurine and glycin but apparently its not working, was gonna try pepsid but one of my friends had digestive issues with it so I havent tried it yet. I ended up taking an ambien last night, which I hate having to do..

 

[hmac]

post 107350 Mittir, yes hemoglobin came back in normal range..

I think you are right, My cortisol went up a long with adrenaline last night. I took pulse before I laid down to sleep and temp, 98/72.
Tossed and turned for 2 hours, woke up temp 98.6/84
Not sure how to get this down, will get back to regular carrot salads as I have been eating them sporadically.. Not sure how to get my liver to start storing glycogen again, have been taking taurine and glycin but apparently its not working, was gonna try pepsid but one of my friends had digestive issues with it so I havent tried it yet. I ended up taking an ambien last night, which I hate having to do..

I have experienced extreme Hypnic Jerks, sometimes lasting an entire night, and they always came at times of extreme stress. At the physiological level I am convinced that it is an adrenaline and endotoxin issue. Thinking of the cell as being unable to reach the relaxed state due to low energy can be useful. It's conceivable that when this situation occurs in the nerves there is some form of electrical disturbance or inappropriate signal created that might result in a jerk - pure speculation of course.
Thinking psychologically (whilst recognising that the psychology is, in reality, inseparable from the physiology); in times of extreme emotional distress the brain is constantly perceiving danger - when simply being alive is so painful, anything in the world is a potential threat. In this state the brain might catch you on the cusp of sleep as the lack of conciousness equals the lack of ability to spot and defend oneself from danger. A soldier on sentry duty might have similar experiences.

Perhaps the constant focus on causative physiological factors may, ironically, contribute to the hypervigilance that is the ultimate causative psychological factor.

Either way, I'm sympathetic as I know how frustrating it can be.

 

[Blossom]

post 107373 m danger. A soldier on sentry duty might have similar experiences.

Perhaps the constant focus on causative physiological factors may, ironically, contribute to the hypervigilance that is the ultimate causative psychological factor.



Either way, I'm sympathetic as I know how frustrating it can be.

I've noticed that is true for me. I'm still working on finding the right balance. :)

 

[hmac]

post 107388

post 107373 m danger. A soldier on sentry duty might have similar experiences.

Perhaps the constant focus on causative physiological factors may, ironically, contribute to the hypervigilance that is the ultimate causative psychological factor.



Either way, I'm sympathetic as I know how frustrating it can be.

I've noticed that is true for me. I'm still working on finding the right balance. :)[/quote

Likewise. It seems to help to be curious rather than desperate for a cure

 

[tara]

Are you getting plenty of magnesium to help muscles etc relax?