Depression, Melatonin, Wifi, Oh My

[Sergey]

Could you be low in DHEA , as @Captain_Coconut pointed out they seem to have an inverse relationship

Maybe. I have tried taking it a while ago but didn't like the effect. More depression as far as I remember. Should it be taken together with pregnenolone?

 

[Jackrabbit]

Maybe. I have tried taking it a while ago but didn't like the effect. More depression as far as I remember. Should it be taken together with pregnenolone?

Yes, and low doses, much lower than what they recommend on most bottles you get. Like 5mg dhea. But you can take 300mg of pregnenolone a week.

 

[Sergey]

Yes, and low doses, much lower than what they recommend on most bottles you get. Like 5mg dhea. But you can take 300mg of pregnenolone a week.

Thank you! Will try that. Is it good for overall brain health too? After high serotonin experience for example..

 

[Jackrabbit]

Thank you! Will try that. Is it good for overall brain health too? After high serotonin experience for example..

Yes, check out this article by Ray:
Progesterone Pregnenolone & DHEA - Three Youth-Associated Hormones

 

[Sativa]

Being familiar with Organic Chemistry, the conditions for chemical reactions to take place can be recreated inside a microwave - they are sometimes infact used for these reasons.

It would seem that microwaving any food which contains a cocktail of different molecules, some quite fragile, would result in unpredictable reactions taking place, which would result in formaton of unknown substances and, of course, degredation of existing molecules.

This would translate to loss of nutrition (except perhaps the minerals) which would make microwaving food a counter-intuitive method of cooking.

But it is very convenient, nonetheless!

 

[Cirion]

let's not forget that probably a lot of food people put into the microwave are PUFA laden which as we know PUFA + heat do not mix.

 

[Sativa]

Indeed.

I propose that microwaving one's meals, can contribute to malnutrition

(similarly to thinking 'peanut butter' satisfies protein requirements, when as most peat people know, PUFA's prevent protein digestion by acting as trypsin enzyme inhibitor's)

 

[Cirion]

Plus Ray Peat has said that some proteins may actually cause effectively a protein loss in the body due to their effects, which means you'd be better off not even having it. Ray peat frequently makes a point to only eat quality proteins.

 

[Sativa]

Based on Ray's perspective Melatonin is a stress hormone, not something to be increased let alone taken on purpose!

PS the body produces it in picogram amounts, so even 1mg is a massive spike/overdose!


An RP inspired insight on melatonin:

Remember, the biological action of melatonin does not initiate sleep. If you think your melatonin supplement “knocks you out” at night, you’re either experiencing physiological effects of stupor, which can cause grogginess, dizziness, and drowsiness especially in large doses (anything more than 1 mg), or you’re simply experiencing the placebo effect. And you’re actually suppressing your body’s ability to sleep soundly at the same time.

Synthetic melatonin supplementation inhibits your body’s metabolic rate. When the metabolism goes down, adrenaline goes up in direct response. And when adrenaline goes up, so does melatonin, which further slows the metabolism. This perpetuates the stress response of the sympathetic nervous system, which worsens your sleep quality. Minimize melatonin, and you’ll help your body stay de-stressed and sleep better during the night. There are better ways to induce drowsiness without the dangerous side effects of excess melatonin.

Link: http://butterbeliever.com/the-melatonin-scam/


- I found this on Another post on this forum: -
(Melatonin And Confusion)

RP cites a study that showed melatonin increases estrogen and inhibits progesterone.
He speculated on thymus gland shrinkage based on his Lab experience and then proposed how low thyroid, high estrogen and low progesterone can lead to this situation.
He does not cite any specific study on shrinking thymus but the possibility.

Here is the quote

Ray Peat said:

In our lab at the University of Oregon, our hamsters would try to hibernate, even though they were in temperature-controlled laboratories with regular cycles of artificial light. (The ceiling lights provided only dim illumination inside their cage boxes, so they were probably in a chronic state of light deprivation, which probably increased their sensitivity to the weak environmental cues that Frank Brown had investigated, possibly microwaves that easily penetrated the lab walls.) During the winter, when they were infertile, I found that their thymus glands practically disappeared. The mechanism seemed to include the increase of pineal gland activity (probably increasing melatonin synthesis) in the winter, under the intensified activity of the “sympathetic nervous system” (with increased activity of adrenalin and other catecholamines), and the melatonin was apparently a signal for suppressing fertility during the stressful winter. In some animals (Shvareva and Nevretdinova, 1989), estrogen is increased during hibernation, contributing to the reduction of body temperature.

In 1994 A.V. Sirotkin found that melatonin inhibits progesterone production but stimulates estrogen production, and it’s widely recognized that melatonin generally inhibits the thyroid hormones, creating an environment in which fertilization, implantation, and development of the embryo are not possible. This combination of high estrogen with low progesterone and low thyroid decreases the resistance of the organism, predisposing it to seizures and excitotoxic damage, and causing the thymus gland to atrophy.Aging Eyes, Infant Eyes, and Excitable Tissues

Another aspect of melatonin from RP article on eyes:
- Aging Eyes, Infant Eyes, and Excitable Tissues -

Melatonin and prolactin are induced by stress, and darkness is a stress because it impairs mitochondrial energy production.
...
The popular supplement melatonin, ...increase the risk of retinal light damage and macular degeneration. Serotonin uptake inhibiting antidepressants are suspected to be able to cause it.

 

[Sativa]

How can I make sure my melatonin levels don’t rise naturally and induce depression

The main thing for depression are acknowledging & resolving repressed and supressed childhood emotional issues/trauma.

Make sure you have a clean running metabolsim, and minimise the main things that obstruct it. Keep liver thyroid and thymus in tip top form, keep progesterone production high and reduce all sources of estrogenic chemicals (BPA, teflon, plastic food containers, thermal receipt paper), as well as keeping serotonin low.

Ray Peats articles will be helpful on depression no doubt.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

@Sativa

“In 1994 A.V. Sirotkin found that melatonin inhibits progesterone production but stimulates estrogen production, and it’s widely recognized that melatonin generally inhibits the thyroid hormones,”

That is a study on pig ovaries. There are human studies that do not suggest any of this, in terms of oral consumption. Pubmed is your friend lol

Taken from the footnotes of RP:
J Pineal Res 1994 Oct;17(3):112-7. Direct influence of melatonin on steroid, nonapeptide hormones, and cyclic nucleotide secretion by granulosa cells isolated from porcine ovaries. Sirotkin AV. “It was found that melatonin is able to inhibit progesterone and stimulate estradiol secretion.” “The present observations suggest a direct effect of melatonin on the steroid, nonapeptide hormone, and cyclic nucleotide release from porcine ovarian cells.”

 

[Makrosky]

It would seem that microwaving any food which contains a cocktail of different molecules, some quite fragile, would result in unpredictable reactions taking place, which would result in formaton of unknown substances and, of course, degredation of existing molecules.

This would translate to loss of nutrition (except perhaps the minerals) which would make microwaving food a counter-intuitive method of cooking.

Do you know if there is even a single study in pubmed demonstrating this? I have never seen one.

 

[Makrosky]

@Sativa

“In 1994 A.V. Sirotkin found that melatonin inhibits progesterone production but stimulates estrogen production, and it’s widely recognized that melatonin generally inhibits the thyroid hormones,”

That is a study on pig ovaries. There are human studies that do not suggest any of this, in terms of oral consumption. Pubmed is your friend lol

Taken from the footnotes of RP:
J Pineal Res 1994 Oct;17(3):112-7. Direct influence of melatonin on steroid, nonapeptide hormones, and cyclic nucleotide secretion by granulosa cells isolated from porcine ovaries. Sirotkin AV. “It was found that melatonin is able to inhibit progesterone and stimulate estradiol secretion.” “The present observations suggest a direct effect of melatonin on the steroid, nonapeptide hormone, and cyclic nucleotide release from porcine ovarian cells.”

Thanks. Doesn't speak very favorably of him that he claims something based on an in vitro study of porcine cells.

 

[Jackrabbit]

Thanks. Doesn't speak very favorably of him that he claims something based on an in vitro study of porcine cells.

It’s interesting that the article disparaging melatonin was copyrighted in 2006 but in 2011 he was saying it was the end product of an enzyme converting serotonin and seemed to have no issues with it.

 

[Makrosky]

It’s interesting that the article disparaging melatonin was copyrighted in 2006 but in 2011 he was saying it was the end product of an enzyme converting serotonin and seemed to have no issues with it.

Well, changing views on things is not only ok, it is good. But claiming something is estrogenic based on an in vitro study of female ovarian porcine cells I think it's a bit too much.

 

[Jackrabbit]

Well, changing views on things is not only ok, it is good. But claiming something is estrogenic based on an in vitro study of female ovarian porcine cells I think it's a bit too much.

I agree that changing one’s mind is good but if you were to just go by his articles to get his opinion on something, it seems like he should update his article or his website reflecting his new understanding. Unless I’m missing something. I guess it’s not his responsibility to do all of our thinking for us, though. For instance there is plenty of research showing that melatonin supplementation can actually help restore, or prevent damage to, the thymus gland. So do you go on his opinion or scientific research? I realize some research is done poorly and doesn’t always warrant full credibility, but that research seems pretty straightforward and has been repeated in various studies. But of course, those studies are done on rats and mice.

 

[Makrosky]

I agree that changing one’s mind is good but if you were to just go by his articles to get his opinion on something, it seems like he should update his article or his website reflecting his new understanding. Unless I’m missing something. I guess it’s not his responsibility to do all of our thinking for us, though. For instance there is plenty of research showing that melatonin supplementation can actually help restore, or prevent damage to, the thymus gland. So do you go on his opinion or scientific research? I realize some research is done poorly and doesn’t always warrant full credibility, but that research seems pretty straightforward and has been repeated in various studies. But of course, those studies are done on rats and mice.

What was published, was published. Even if you change it online, you can't go back to the magazines, interviews, pdf files in people's computers, etc. I think these kind of things are a good motivation to not follow blindly anyone, including Peat. And to raise a good dose of healthy skepticism on how lightly he sometimes researches stuff. Which should be very obvious in the first instance but we tend to forget that.

 

[Sativa]

Do you know if there is even a single study in pubmed demonstrating this? I have never seen one.

I learned it in basic Organic Chemistry.
Many reactions can be performed in microwaves.

That is a study on pig ovaries. There are human studies that do not suggest any of this, in terms of oral consumption. Pubmed is your friend lol

btw, the post mentioning the pig study wasn't composed by me, I simply copied a post from another forum user as it referenced melatonin.

_
With regards to melatonin, it might be precautionary to use the smallest dose possible, to minimise undesirable effects, and rely on other means of inducing sleep (of which there are many) eg GABA-related approaches, magnolia extract (which is significantly stronger than Valium, with no side effects).

 

[Amazoniac]

Background - For the past 20 years (since puberty), I struggled (and I mean STRUGGLED) with major depression. A combination of coming to Jesus & Peating & lifestyle changes nipped it in the bud rather radically. I went from quasi suicidal to perfectly happy and content for years. Now its suddenly creeping back…and I may have some interesting intel.

The Story - I recently have been researching EMFs effects on the body because I have strong 24/7 wifi in my home, the new 5G system is coming, and the fact that for the past 10+ years I have been using my iPhone profusely on a daily basis. I came across a few lectures and studies that concerned me. I will list them below.

One of the things I was surprised to find out is that blue light is not the only thing disrupting melatonin, but wifi and rf radiation from our cell phones and modern tech also do the same thing. Forgetting Ray Peat’s admonition that melatonin can cause depression or exacerbate it, I decided to get some sublingual 300mcg melatonin and take a QUARTER of it 5 hours before desired onset of sleep time. Why? Because for the past 10+ years I have suffered from pretty severe circadian rhythm disruption, preferring to go to sleep at 3 am and wake around 11 am. I thought maybe all my tech + Peating had lowered melatonin too much and I wanted to experiment.

Well, surprisingly it worked, I was able to bring up my sleep time 1 hour after taking just one dose, and without anymore melatonin I have maintained that sleep time for days. Last night, wishing to progress a bit further, I took another quarter (75 mcg). And indeed, I glanced at my clock right before falling asleep and I had advanced 45 minutes. I have never been able to do this before, even with sleeping pills, nor with any Peat strategies unfortunately (although I still take magnesium before bed anyway).

The problem - both days I took the melatonin I woke up a different person. I woke up feeling like the same depressed, anxious person I was in college when I thought about committing suicide on an every other day basis. I had to remind myself this morning - its just the melatonin - this will go away - but I tell you I’m still freaked out.

Here’s the rest of the problem - I eliminated wifi from my home in an effort to reduce EMF exposure and even bought an adapter to “hardwire” my iPhone to work over ethernet. Now I’m wondering if my depression free years had something to do with the increasing exposure I had to wifi and tech that actively suppresses melatonin. The problem is, EMF’s effects don’t stop there, they can be very dangerous and are known to damage DNA & can cause birth defects and/or developmental problems in children, not to mention cancer. As someone who will be trying to conceive this year, I’m concerned because several studies linked autism to where the mother slept and found a possible correlation between autistic children and the mother sleeping in a bed exposed to high emf from wifi routers, smart meters, etc. Also, I did find I had certain symptoms I had never connected to wifi router radiation have stopped since eliminating it - namely heart palpitations and chronic fatigue has improved radically.

The conundrum - I can’t in good conscious keep wifi in my house while I get ready to try to conceive - removing it also has helped a lot with my fatigue and heart issues - but what if removing it also makes me feel depressed again? I cannot bear it! How can I make sure my melatonin levels don’t rise naturally and induce depression now that I’ve removed these active suppression devices (wifi, iPhone, etc)? I couldn’t really find anything from Ray Peat on EMFs, although he doesn’t care for certain light bulbs and that’s a kind of EMF.

Please forgive my rambling, I have melatonin head this morning :-/ One last thing - I don't think I need to say this but just in case - please don't put a router by your head to suppress melatonin. Very bad idea...

Here are two lectures that got me researching EMFs:
Prof. Martin Pall - How Wifi & Other EMFs Cause Biological Harm


Dr. Devra David - The Truth About Mobile Phone and Wireless Radiation

If melanin works as a protective antioxidant, lowering inflammation should decrease its requirements and avoid an early degradation of tryptophan, which is the opposite of what you is implying. If their theory is right, E and M and R is not a suppressant, it's a depletor due to stress from intracellular calcium inflammation.

It has some grass-fed properties:

- Melatonin: A peroxyl radical scavenger more effective than vitamin E
- Effect of Melatonin as Antimicrobial Agent Against Some Pathogenic Bacteria
- Antibacterial and antitumor activities of melatonin hormone
- Role of melatonin on calcium signaling and mitochondrial oxidative stress in epilepsy: focus on TRP channels
- The Therapeutic Potential of Melatonin: A Review of the Science
- Melatonin combats molecular terrorism at the mitochondrial level​

Therefore it doesn't seem a good idea to try lower it directly, it's better to decrease its requirements.

It wouldn't be surprising if inflammation over the times upregulated its production while decreased what it takes to synthesize it. The process requires acetylation and methylation, so the nutrients that are involved can interfere with the process.

Perhaps too much stimulation from intracellular calcium forces the body to desensitize yourself to stimulation, making you less reactive and less prone to anxiety. Not sure. But removing E and M and R all of the sudden might require some time for recalibration.

iPhone

Owning one can cause suicide ideation when you realize the amount of time wasted camping for their next version release. If you have a sticker on your goodies, it's justifiable. Maybe the universe is conspiring for you to delay your pregnancy until you get rid of bad examples for your future fetus. It's inconceivable to use an Apple device around kids, they have to develop some awareness first so that becoming docile slaves is a conscious decision.

Why?

Agathos, 2018.

 

[Amazoniac]

Is it possible to spare serotonin with supplemental melanin? If so, will it be degraded or tryptophan be diverted to other functions?

--

when your brain is being turned off, it experiences depression - it wants to retreat. Things like anxiety and aggression - you aggress if someone doesn't let you retreat.