Depression, Melatonin, Wifi, Oh My

[milk_lover]

A car is almost a faraday cage except for the windows. As such, any RF signals inside will bounce around like crazy and possibly amplify (This is one reason why if you're trying to shield something, make sure you measure before and after to make sure you didn't make it worse).

Modern cars are 10x, 100x worse in EMF than old school cars for this reason. Old cars didn't have Bluetooth or wi-fi or anything. Plus more electronics in modern cars = more electrical, more magnetic fields also. I have also heard that car electricity is very dirty too. Call me crazy, but I actually think a large amount of road rage could be attributed to the high emf inside the cars. I know that high emf tends to make me agitated, easily irritable, brain fogged etc and I sometimes feel this way when driving my car.

Same goes in a bus, or airplane, etc. Airplane and high traffic commuter buses would be among the worst places to be for RF. When I fly I try to sit all the way in the back. Sitting in the middle, especially near the engines, would be the highest EMF spot.

wow this is interesting stuff. When I commute for work, I make phone calls to friends and family to listen to their stories and socialize. Although I use speaker phone, I still get tired by the end of the commute as opposed to the case without social calls. I thought it's because of the energy I lose when talking and arguing. Also, in the morning I hook my iPhone 8 to a USB cable (no bluetooth) and listen to podcasts from Youtube while the data plan is still on. Maybe I should just download them and listen to them offline. The problem with airplane mode is that the phone is basically switched off. No calls and no alert messages for whatsup. What if I receive a very important call/message? This is what keeps me stay away from the airplane mode.

Also, very interesting about the airplane seating. I like to sit at the front of the plane because it's less noisy, but now if I think about it, maybe it's not a good idea due to the bridge/control room at the front with all the radio signals with airport towers. Is the engine that high in EMF?

 

[Cirion]

I am not sure how high the engine EMF is, the last time I flew I did not take a scanner to it lol :P I guess I didn't want people to think I was crazy, I'd be pretty self conscious about walking around the aisle with my scanner lol. All I know is someone told me it's high.

I am actually an aerospace engineer and have a lot of exposure to engine design. Those things output a LOOOT of power and spin at incredible speeds that are rather mind numbing (10-30,000 RPM's) and I can imagine some incredibly powerful EMF outputs from them for sure.

The compromise with phones is at least just make sure its airplane mode in your pocket, and keep it a feet or two away from your person when its not. But I personally won't keep it on in my car anymore unless I absolutely have to. Even with GPS, a trick I found is to set it up, then turn on airplane mode. The GPS will still show you where to go even without internet at that point after it's already loaded.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Background - For the past 20 years (since puberty), I struggled (and I mean STRUGGLED) with major depression. A combination of coming to Jesus & Peating & lifestyle changes nipped it in the bud rather radically. I went from quasi suicidal to perfectly happy and content for years. Now its suddenly creeping back…and I may have some interesting intel.

The Story - I recently have been researching EMFs effects on the body because I have strong 24/7 wifi in my home, the new 5G system is coming, and the fact that for the past 10+ years I have been using my iPhone profusely on a daily basis. I came across a few lectures and studies that concerned me. I will list them below.

One of the things I was surprised to find out is that blue light is not the only thing disrupting melatonin, but wifi and rf radiation from our cell phones and modern tech also do the same thing. Forgetting Ray Peat’s admonition that melatonin can cause depression or exacerbate it, I decided to get some sublingual 300mcg melatonin and take a QUARTER of it 5 hours before desired onset of sleep time. Why? Because for the past 10+ years I have suffered from pretty severe circadian rhythm disruption, preferring to go to sleep at 3 am and wake around 11 am. I thought maybe all my tech + Peating had lowered melatonin too much and I wanted to experiment.

Well, surprisingly it worked, I was able to bring up my sleep time 1 hour after taking just one dose, and without anymore melatonin I have maintained that sleep time for days. Last night, wishing to progress a bit further, I took another quarter (75 mcg). And indeed, I glanced at my clock right before falling asleep and I had advanced 45 minutes. I have never been able to do this before, even with sleeping pills, nor with any Peat strategies unfortunately (although I still take magnesium before bed anyway).

The problem - both days I took the melatonin I woke up a different person. I woke up feeling like the same depressed, anxious person I was in college when I thought about committing suicide on an every other day basis. I had to remind myself this morning - its just the melatonin - this will go away - but I tell you I’m still freaked out.

Here’s the rest of the problem - I eliminated wifi from my home in an effort to reduce EMF exposure and even bought an adapter to “hardwire” my iPhone to work over ethernet. Now I’m wondering if my depression free years had something to do with the increasing exposure I had to wifi and tech that actively suppresses melatonin. The problem is, EMF’s effects don’t stop there, they can be very dangerous and are known to damage DNA & can cause birth defects and/or developmental problems in children, not to mention cancer. As someone who will be trying to conceive this year, I’m concerned because several studies linked autism to where the mother slept and found a possible correlation between autistic children and the mother sleeping in a bed exposed to high emf from wifi routers, smart meters, etc. Also, I did find I had certain symptoms I had never connected to wifi router radiation have stopped since eliminating it - namely heart palpitations and chronic fatigue has improved radically.

The conundrum - I can’t in good conscious keep wifi in my house while I get ready to try to conceive - removing it also has helped a lot with my fatigue and heart issues - but what if removing it also makes me feel depressed again? I cannot bear it! How can I make sure my melatonin levels don’t rise naturally and induce depression now that I’ve removed these active suppression devices (wifi, iPhone, etc)? I couldn’t really find anything from Ray Peat on EMFs, although he doesn’t care for certain light bulbs and that’s a kind of EMF.

Please forgive my rambling, I have melatonin head this morning :-/ One last thing - I don't think I need to say this but just in case - please don't put a router by your head to suppress melatonin. Very bad idea...

Here are two lectures that got me researching EMFs:
Prof. Martin Pall - How Wifi & Other EMFs Cause Biological Harm


Dr. Devra David - The Truth About Mobile Phone and Wireless Radiation

I take 3mg melatonin every night and have been doing so now for over 2 months. I have found that 5mg of dhea in the morning basically eliminates any funky feelings from melatonin. I have also found that the side effects from melatonin go away completely after 2 weeks. IIRC RP is okay with small doses of melatonin, I think he said under 1mg should not be bad. I think 3mg is great because of all the extra melatonin disrupting elements that are abound, I think it is similar to DHEA in being a ‘youth molecule’ and that it likely is our bodies way of transmuting the toxicity of serotonin, since melatonin is made from serotonin. If melatonin were health destroying, then most people would be seeing improved health from poor sleep hygeine, which is certainly not the case. Melatonin has an interplay with DHEA, and when you are first starting out it takes some time to adapt and likely your DHEA is supressed. I found this persons writings to be pretty enlightening on the subject. The "Melatonin - DHEA Cycle" and Calorie Restriction

 

[milk_lover]

I am not sure how high the engine EMF is, the last time I flew I did not take a scanner to it lol :P I guess I didn't want people to think I was crazy, I'd be pretty self conscious about walking around the aisle with my scanner lol. All I know is someone told me it's high.

I am actually an aerospace engineer and have a lot of exposure to engine design. Those things output a LOOOT of power and spin at incredible speeds that are rather mind numbing (10-30,000 RPM's) and I can imagine some incredibly powerful EMF outputs from them for sure.

The compromise with phones is at least just make sure its airplane mode in your pocket, and keep it a feet or two away from your person when its not. But I personally won't keep it on in my car anymore unless I absolutely have to. Even with GPS, a trick I found is to set it up, then turn on airplane mode. The GPS will still show you where to go even without internet at that point after it's already loaded.

Yeah that trick about GPS I learned when I was traveling years ago. I didn't have sim card with data so I loaded the place I want to go to with the hotel Wifi and then go out with the directions already started.

I never put my phone in my pocket. I hold it in my hands when I walk but my hands are close to my junk so I don't know if that's any better. I will try next week the airplane mode in the car and see what that feels like.

The back of the plane is better because the engine blades are facing forward lol? Back of the plane is where the cheap tickers are. Even extra beneficial.

 

[Cirion]

I take 3mg melatonin every night and have been doing so now for over 2 months. I have found that 5mg of dhea in the morning basically eliminates any funky feelings from melatonin. I have also found that the side effects from melatonin go away completely after 2 weeks. IIRC RP is okay with small doses of melatonin, I think he said under 1mg should not be bad. I think 3mg is great because of all the extra melatonin disrupting elements that are abound. Melatonin has an interplay with DHEA, and when you are first starting out it takes some time to adapt and likely your DHEA is supressed. I found this persons writings to be pretty enlightening on the subject. The "Melatonin - DHEA Cycle" and Calorie Restriction

I don't think I'm on board with this, but I always like to consider myself open minded anyway. What are your waking temps. It seems you admit you wake up groggy and have to take DHEA to counter it? I don't think it should be normal to have to take something to fix morning energy/temps (at least, not long term).

I believe (Would have to dig it up, correct me if wrong) Peat has said that poor quality sleep is primarily a lack of DHEA, not melatonin, especially in the case of sleep apnea, where DHEA is EXTREMELY low. I have sleep apnea and I am 99% sure (would need test to verify) that its DHEA I need not melatonin. Peat does say melatonin declines in old age, but I think (most) of us here are young to middle aged, so I'm not too worried about that...

I'll give that article a read.

*edit* short read. My take on it is they claim if melatonin is high, DHEA is low and vice versa? Does this mean older people are high in DHEA because they are low in melatonin? Is that true? Just sleep in darkness if you wanna boost melatonin imo but I don't recommend it personally but that's just me.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I don't think I'm on board with this, but I always like to consider myself open minded anyway. What are your waking temps. It seems you admit you wake up groggy and have to take DHEA to counter it? I don't think it should be normal to have to take something to fix morning energy/temps (at least, not long term).

I believe (Would have to dig it up, correct me if wrong) Peat has said that poor quality sleep is primarily a lack of DHEA, not melatonin, especially in the case of sleep apnea, where DHEA is EXTREMELY low. I have sleep apnea and I am 99% sure (would need test to verify) that its DHEA I need not melatonin. Peat does say melatonin declines in old age, but I think (most) of us here are young to middle aged, so I'm not too worried about that...

I found the DHEA helpful at the start. Now it is not necessary at all as I get no side effects from melatonin, it was only the first 2 weeks that were slightly groggy. My waking temp is between 97.7 and 98. I reach 98.6 within first couple hours of day and stay there solid for about 12 hours each day. Melatonin has not had any negative effect on my health from what I can see, I feel better since I have started taking it. I now sleep a full 8 hours and wake up before my alarm in most cases. Pairing GABA and skullcap with melatonin has granted me near perfect sleep, where nothing else has come close to giving me stable improvements. Increasing my low dose lithium to ~15mg probably has helped me too.

 

[Jackrabbit]

I take 3mg melatonin every night and have been doing so now for over 2 months. I have found that 5mg of dhea in the morning basically eliminates any funky feelings from melatonin. I have also found that the side effects from melatonin go away completely after 2 weeks. IIRC RP is okay with small doses of melatonin, I think he said under 1mg should not be bad. I think 3mg is great because of all the extra melatonin disrupting elements that are abound, I think it is similar to DHEA in being a ‘youth molecule’ and that it likely is our bodies way of transmuting the toxicity of serotonin, since melatonin is made from serotonin. If melatonin were health destroying, then most people would be seeing improved health from poor sleep hygeine, which is certainly not the case. Melatonin has an interplay with DHEA, and when you are first starting out it takes some time to adapt and likely your DHEA is supressed. I found this persons writings to be pretty enlightening on the subject. The "Melatonin - DHEA Cycle" and Calorie Restriction

I agree with you, but I think dosage really varies per person. I just listened to a kmud interview from 2011 where RP said melatonin is what you get when you break down serotonin with some particular enzyme. But he outright said it can be a serotonin antagonist. For me more than 6mcg a day can lead to sluggishness and depression although I am clinically hypothyroid

 

[Jackrabbit]

Thanks for all the responses! I have a red light only (660 nm) LED panel (typically used to grow plants). I’m thinking of putting it on a timer to turn on in the morning when I’d LIKE to get up. I’m actually going to sit in front of it shortly for a few minutes, I definitely feel more energy after using it, its just a pain to set up because I’m totally using it off label.

For sure I agree, @Jackrabbit, 75 mcg MUST be too much. I thought I was being super careful and conservative considering I saw melatonin sold as high as 10 mg in the store. Not only do I wake up a mess on only 75mcg, I had strange nightmares too. I’ll try taking some Cascara Sagrada tonight to speed recovery up. I do take progesterone, days 14-28. I’m looking to see what does one do, if conception happens, with the progesterone? Do I continue to use it, except then everyday? Or is this dangerous? I DEFINITELY have to get on this research..

As for the microwave, I usually only use it 2-10 minutes per day. 2 minutes in the morning to make my latte. 8 minutes to hardboil an egg in a nifty microwavable chicken gadget. That said, after measuring with the Trifield, I’ve been hitting the on button and running. The rf spike is insane. All my life I’ve been using the microwave freely, not thinking at all it was blasting my head with so much rf. For mine, I have to be 15 feet away not to get zapped. Sigh.

In bed, after getting rid of the wifi, the alarm clock, unplugging things, turning phone off, etc - EMF is pretty low now. I got rid of bluetooth keyboard and mouse in my office and have enough distance between myself and desktop.

My concern is, now that I’ve reduced my EMF (which is good, except that it helped suppress melatonin), will my melatonin spike and depression return? Time will tell.

I will for sure stop experimenting with melatonin for now and try the suggestions mentioned.

I’m not sure about progesterone dosage after conception but I know that if you take too much prior to conception your body will think it’s already pregnant so you won’t conceive. But after ovulation you would already be pregnant in which case progesterone isn’t going to hurt but you really might not need to take much.
A really high end reproductive health doctor insisted to me that COQ10 is extremely important for egg count and quality.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I agree with you, but I think dosage really varies per person. I just listened to a kmud interview from 2011 where RP said melatonin is what you get when you break down serotonin with some particular enzyme. But he outright said it can be a serotonin antagonist. For me more than 6mcg a day can lead to sluggishness and depression although I am clinically hypothyroid

Yea if you are very hypothyroid it probably is going to be hard to reap benefits from melatonin, as it does slightly lower body temp over night.

 

[Cirion]

Yeah I am honestly trying to get my Waking temp to 98.6F. I have gotten in numerous arguments with many people on these forums who disagree with that goal, but I stand by my goal.

I'm well aware that body temp can and should drop at night, but it should come all the way back up to 98.6 in a 100% healthy person. IMHO. This shows you still have glucose stores left, IMO. Anything less means that your body is incapable of fasting 8+ hours (I know for a fact I can't, I am always eating during the day)

 

[Jackrabbit]

Yea if you are very hypothyroid it probably is going to be hard to reap benefits from melatonin, as it does slightly lower body temp over night.

Yes although I think I have optimal thyroid again from supplementation so it's worth trying it again. Maybe I’ll go really crazy and try 9 mcg!

 

[Captain_Coconut]

But he outright said it can be a serotonin antagonist.

Interesting, meaning it can lower serotonin. I haven’t heard that before. Please let me know the title for that interview, I will check it out. Thanks!

 

[Jackrabbit]

Interesting, meaning it can lower serotonin. I haven’t heard that before. Please let me know the title for that interview, I will check it out. Thanks!

I don’t know when he said negative stuff about melatonin but I always thought he said a low dose at the right time is good. But here’s the show:

 

[Jackrabbit]

Yeah I am honestly trying to get my Waking temp to 98.6F. I have gotten in numerous arguments with many people on these forums who disagree with that goal, but I stand by my goal.

I'm well aware that body temp can and should drop at night, but it should come all the way back up to 98.6 in a 100% healthy person. IMHO. This shows you still have glucose stores left, IMO. Anything less means that your body is incapable of fasting 8+ hours (I know for a fact I can't, I am always eating during the day)

Restoring glycogen can take a while, that’s what the liver stores. You need to have good thyroid function for that to start building up again as I understand it.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

If melatonin is making you depressed, something else is likely at play. I suspect low dhea.

Increasing salt intake will help to shield from wifi/cell/microwave radiation. I just did this test the other day, saline water to reflect same conductivity of the human bodily fluids based on average ionic content. Then I put my cell phone in a waterproof case and submerged in the solution just 1/4 inch. The bars on my phone for both wifi and cell went to zero. I could not get any web pages to load on my phone. Cut the salinity to half and the rate of data was around half that of when not submerged. Clearly electrolytes are a huge part of the equation to the emf sensitivity some experience.

 

[Jackrabbit]

If melatonin is making you depressed, something else is likely at play. I suspect low dhea.

Yes quite possibly, I wasn’t taking dhea at the time and now I’m taking a little dhea and pregnenolone.

 

[Sergey]

What time of day was the urine taken? Do you feel groggy during the day?

Morning urine. In late November. In Norway. That probably explains high melatonin?
Not sure how relevant is the test, I was mostly interested in checking serotonin levels since it was several weeks after high serotonin incident caused by 5htp/prozac. Added melatonin just out of curiosity and was surprised by its high levels.
In the past, before moving to Norway, I tolerated melatonin and agomelatine very well. After some time in Scandinavia they started to make me very depressed.

 

[Jackrabbit]

Morning urine. In late November. In Norway. That probably explains high melatonin?
Not sure how relevant is the test, I was mostly interested in checking serotonin levels since it was several weeks after high serotonin incident caused by 5htp/prozac. Added melatonin just out of curiosity and was surprised by its high levels.
In the past, before moving to Norway, I tolerated melatonin and agomelatine very well. After some time in Scandinavia they started to make me very depressed.

How much were you taking? Supposedly 3 mcg is the top end physiological dose

 

[Sergey]

How much were you taking? Supposedly 3 mcg is the top end physiological dose

Melatonin? 1 mg, I know its rather high. Took those doses long time ago for sleep. Tried to take smaller doses several times since then, but got very depressed.

 

[Jackrabbit]

Melatonin? 1 mg, I know its rather high. Took those doses long time ago for sleep. Tried to take smaller doses several times since then, but got very depressed.

Could you be low in DHEA , as @Captain_Coconut pointed out they seem to have an inverse relationship