If finasteride is really horrible for us, then what else can we really do to combat androgenic alopecia?

[davvid_1]

Anyone use topical finasteride?

i decided to try topical dutasteride, just started. Rob at perfect hair health writes about diluting it to the point of having no systemic effect as measured by serum DHT. think i got some testicle pain pretty soon after though so doubt im going to continue.

 

[golder]

i decided to try topical dutasteride, just started. Rob at perfect hair health writes about diluting it to the point of having no systemic effect as measured by serum DHT. think i got some testicle pain pretty soon after though so doubt im going to continue.

I really enjoy Rob's videos. I've not seen him do one on topical dutasteride though. I saw him do one on finasteride and I was quite interested in hearing the comparison. Would you mind linking the video? Cheers man.

 

[davvid_1]

I really enjoy Rob's videos. I've not seen him do one on topical dutasteride though. I saw him do one on finasteride and I was quite interested in hearing the comparison. Would you mind linking the video? Cheers man.

not sure if he's made a video on it but there the article im pretty sure is for his subscribers

 

[jondoeuk]

Anyone use topical finasteride?

Yes, I have.

 

[jondoeuk]

Can anyone help me understand how finasteride could increase hair count like it has done in this study?

Finasteride works by targeting an enzyme (5a-reductase type 2), that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone intracellularly (inside the cell). With fin, less dihydrotestosterone is produced.

 

[helpmyhair]

I’ve been using topical minoxidil for several years with great results, I am in my mid 30’s. I’ve run out a few times or taken a month or two off simply because I hadn’t gotten around to ordering more of it. I didn’t experience crazy shedding, just a slight increase until I picked up some more minoxidil. An older friend in his 50’s has been using minoxidil for over twenty years, he still has great hair.

I haven’t noticed any measurable impact on heart rate from topical minoxidil. I have tried a few small oral doses (of the topical liquid) simply as an experiment. I noticed a mild stress response and measured slight increase in heart rate. Personally, I consider topical minoxidil use safe and would approach oral use with caution. Given the increase in heart rate and apparent mild stress response, I wouldn’t consider anything above very small oral doses. I haven’t felt the need to repeat my oral experiments since the topical results have been so good.

Don’t discount a good coal or pine tar shampoo. I’ve had good results from a commercial 3% coal tar shampoo MG217 and have experimented with making my own coal tar shampoo from a USP grade coal tar. I also intermittently use ketoconazole shampoo. But I don’t like the shampoo it’s available in commercially (might simply need to look around for a different one) and I consider it semi toxic. So, risk aversion drove me to moderate my use of ketoconazole shampoo after I got my hair loss stabilized.

It’s also worth considering that hair loss is related to blood flow in micro vessels and metabolic function. How’s your T3/T4? Whats your body temp/TSH? How’s your blood pressure? Are you absolutely sure you get enough b vitamins? How’s your prolactin level?

Interesting. Perhaps I'll give liquid minoxidil a try. But is that enough to stop hairloss? From what I've read, it can help regrowth, but ultimately not stop hairloss. What do ya think?

Interesting regarding the shampoo. How does that work exactly, the coal/pine tar one? Does it help with maintenance? I have 1% ketoconazole shampoo (nizoral) but only use it once in a while as it seems kind of toxic and makes my hair lifeless. I guess it can lower some DHT in the scalp, but the studies were based on the 2% version which is only available by prescription.

Hoping my blood flow is okay as I am T1 diabetic. so trying to keep my sugars in check. I do have calcification in my scalp.. I can feel it. Feels hard. Scalp massage helps loosen it up to some extent, but tends to harden up again the next day. TSH is at 4.5 which is on the higher side but my Endo won't do anything about it. I tried cynomel/cynoplus in the past but found it confusing and if I took more than the tiniest amount, I would feel alot of anxiety/stress. So I quit that. Recently my Free T4 was checked and is 20 pmol/L.. not exactly sure what that means. Temps are not up to par, a little lower. I am cold often. Blood pressure is in range last I checked. I have some B vitamins here as a B complex supplement, but I rarely take it.. could be low. Prolactin my doc won't agree to let me check unfortunately.

Edit: I was just watching Andrew Huberman's podcast on hair loss and regrowth, and he mentioned that minoxidil can raise your prolactin which I believe would make hairloss worse? Also said minoxidil can lower blood pressure. So I wonder how safe it really is, especially for something one would need to take for life, or as long as they want to keep their hair

 

[helpmyhair]

But how do you know they have "minimal side effects" when taking finasteride? People say this all the time as a coping mechanism

Its not possible to have "minimal effects" taking a drug that obliterates 5AR,

I had a stint with both Saw Palmetto and Finasteride before I found RP - if Saw Palmetto bothered you, then Finasteride will tear down your world

The DHT/5AR theory is ridiculously easy to disprove, Peating does solve hair loss but most people on RP aren't really as metabolically healthy as they would like to think, Reducing PUFA is merely one variable in a whole Jungle of variables that affect your metabolism

If you are suffering from hair loss, your metabolism is unable to support hair growth

You can prove to yourself its not DHT or 5AR by taking DHT directly or taking substances that increase 5AR (Tobacco and Caffeine both increase 5AR and these both improve hair health quite a bit), its not a one-hit solution, but it puts you in the right frame of mind to solve the issue via metabolism

Hair loss is caused by stress, thus any supplement that reduces stress (which subsequently increases DHT) will improve hair growth

And by the way hair follicles are never gone, they are always still there, they just get minimized when you go bald, they are always there and are stimulated by stem cells (from healthy metabolism) to be restored to their original thickness

Which stress supplement would you recommend? My stress is insane right now and has been the last year or so. Horrible life circumstances so its. slow process to get rid of it and could use any help I can get

 

[Carb54]

Anyone use topical finasteride?

I have slowed the hairloss through stable hormone levels (low stress) but admitedly it did not stop and was progessing

I used fin for 3 months (jan to end march) at 0.1mg per day topically (0.01%). It stopped my hairloss for the 3 months and slightly thickened it.

It defo went systemic, the side effects were low initially but increased slowly over the 3 months. I think a lot of people just get used to them. But the 3 month mark they were as follows:
- lower libido (less interest in sex, weaker erections and watery semon) I suspect this was due to lower DHT. I did not mind so much and it had some benefits as it allows for more focus on goals
- more difficultly with getting to sleep. I think this is due to the disruption of allopreg and 3 alpha DHP synthesis. I have read that these are linked to GABA pathways, reduction of these would have made it more difficult to relax.

Surprises
- the dark circles under my eyes dissappeared despite difficulty with getting to sleep
- I had high evergy levels upon waking (probably increased cortisol).
- gained large amount of muscle and no fat gain (started going to the gym in Jan)
- Remained low stress and had no adverse stress response
- i was very motivated (probably due to short term test increase)

Caveats
- Before taking fin, i already had below normal DHT levels at 0.9, hence i was likely more prone to DHT related sides
- before taking fin, I had very high above normal progesterone levels. Maybe explains why DHT was low as I already have low 5AR
- i have not tested my DHT levels post fin so no not know the impact on blood levels

Now
- I have taken 2 weeks off of topical fin (want to ensure my body is still used to producing 5AR)
- The 5AR bounceback has been amazing, and i think has bought my Allo preg, 3alphaDHP and DHT above normal temprarily to compensate. Well being is up, libido is normal and sleep is great.
- no significant hair loss incease over last 2 weeks
- I will start fin again for 3 months and play around with the dose (lower) along with frequency. I will then take 2 weeks off again and reassess

Welcome any thoughts on this

 

[hierundjetzt]

And by the way hair follicles are never gone, they are always still there, they just get minimized when you go bald, they are always there and are stimulated by stem cells (from healthy metabolism) to be restored to their original thickness

I am so glad you mentioned that the follicles never die. On this forum as well as on many hair loss forums there are many people who absurdly claim the opposite.

 

[golder]

Finasteride works by targeting an enzyme (5a-reductase type 2), that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone intracellularly (inside the cell). With fin, less dihydrotestosterone is produced.

I know that much, but the entirety of this forum says that DHT isn’t responsible for hair loss. So why would finasteride work in some people?

 

[Apple]

I am so glad you mentioned that the follicles never die. On this forum as well as on many hair loss forums there are many people who absurdly claim the opposite.

There are follicles even on finger tips. It doesn't mean they ever can grow into a full hair.
I think scalp is a dfferent tissue with different kind of follicles. Bald shiny patches on scalp is basically not scalp anymore but a fibrotic tissue (barren land). Scalp either got over-stretched forming diffuse thinning (fibrosys between follicles) or just got pulled back (due to frontal bossing) exposing temples and stretching forhead skin back on temples. There is probably a difference in tightness between scalp and skin on forhead. That's why we generally don't see diffuse thinning on temples.

 

[Apple]

I know that much, but the entirety of this forum says that DHT isn’t responsible for hair loss. So why would finasteride work in some people?

It can stop hairloss for sure... it stops fibrosys, stops skin from remodeling. Studies on heart tissue with connection to finasteride show that heart tissue can be preserved in case of a heart attack since finasteride inhibits fibrosys.
But DHT most likely causes frontal bossing and speeds up skin remodeling , so fibrotic tissue quicker replaces normal scalp tissue (tissue under stress).

 

[BrianF]

I'm sure that Danny Roddy claimed that it had an effect similar to progesterone and that was the reason it arrested hairloss in some people.

 

[golder]

Antifibrotic and progesterone-like effects. Seems like it’s not quite as one sided as it’s portrayed.

 

[LadyRae]

@helpmyhair
Have you considered a Rutin supplement? It is very good for increasing blood flow and circulation...

 

[jondoeuk]

I know that much, but the entirety of this forum says that DHT isn’t responsible for hair loss. So why would finasteride work in some people?

Well, you would have to ask them. From memory, fin works in about 90%. But due to genetics (plus other factors), some may need to add additional treatment(s).

 

[AspiringSage]

Interesting. Perhaps I'll give liquid minoxidil a try. But is that enough to stop hairloss? From what I've read, it can help regrowth, but ultimately not stop hairloss. What do ya think?

Interesting regarding the shampoo. How does that work exactly, the coal/pine tar one? Does it help with maintenance? I have 1% ketoconazole shampoo (nizoral) but only use it once in a while as it seems kind of toxic and makes my hair lifeless. I guess it can lower some DHT in the scalp, but the studies were based on the 2% version which is only available by prescription.

Hoping my blood flow is okay as I am T1 diabetic. so trying to keep my sugars in check. I do have calcification in my scalp.. I can feel it. Feels hard. Scalp massage helps loosen it up to some extent, but tends to harden up again the next day. TSH is at 4.5 which is on the higher side but my Endo won't do anything about it. I tried cynomel/cynoplus in the past but found it confusing and if I took more than the tiniest amount, I would feel alot of anxiety/stress. So I quit that. Recently my Free T4 was checked and is 20 pmol/L.. not exactly sure what that means. Temps are not up to par, a little lower. I am cold often. Blood pressure is in range last I checked. I have some B vitamins here as a B complex supplement, but I rarely take it.. could be low. Prolactin my doc won't agree to let me check unfortunately.

Edit: I was just watching Andrew Huberman's podcast on hair loss and regrowth, and he mentioned that minoxidil can raise your prolactin which I believe would make hairloss worse? Also said minoxidil can lower blood pressure. So I wonder how safe it really is, especially for something one would need to take for life, or as long as they want to keep their hair

Are you in the U.S. there are many services like Walk In Labs, Quest Direct and Lab Corp that will let you order your own TSH, T4, T3 and prolactin tests. Desiccated thyroid products are available. Vitamin B6 and P-5-P are over the counter supplements that can suppress prolactin. Idea Labs has other products that can reduce prolactin in your lab animals for research purposes.

Consider changing endocrines within your health insurance coverage or public health system (I am not sure where you are located or what your access to health care is like). Also consider a local private practice provider or an online clinic. Sit down with a list of hypothyroid symptoms, review them and bring all that you are experiencing (along with your high TSH) to your new endos attention. If high prolactin, high TSH and low thyroid function are impacting the quality of life then aggressively seek treatment or figure out how to self treat. My hypothyroid friend feels terrible when her TSH is up past 3.0, living with a TSH of 4.5 must be horrible. My opinion is that hair loss is more of a symptom than a primary underlying disorder.

With respect to your questions. Yes, I do think options other than finasteride can halt hair loss. Coal tar and pine tar have a number of mechanisms of action. Which it why they are disliked by modern medicine. They are old school “dirty” treatments, not “clean” single molecule drugs like has been in fashion for nearly a hundred years now. They are loaded with different aromatic and carbon compounds. Off the top of my head ha! I can’t tell you why tar based shampoos work, just that they work well for me and seems to work for many others. I believe minoxidil works by keeping the hair follicles in a growth phase. I think it also has some effect on blood flow in small vessels. But whatever their mechanisms of action they seem to work.

The only side effect I’ve experienced is getting used to a shampoo that smells like pine charcoal or a railroad tie. And having to be cautious to keep minoxidil out of my eyes (it burns a little). Neither of these are a big deal compared to the chemical castration and nurosteroid train wreck that is finasteride. I’ve largely gotten my thyroid issues sorted out with T4/T3 though I am still chasing ideal weight loss/energy to dose ratio. I’ve also got my B1, B2, B6, B7, B12 and MNM levels up. My hair is thick and happy now.

Speaking in the spirit of harm reduction rather than traditional advice/opinion. Topical finasteride is widely available from international pharmacies, this indicates to me that it’s widely used topically outside the U.S. If you are really insistent on using finasteride then consider using it topically. It’s not hard to do a little math, crush pills into a fine powder, dissolve in just a little DMSO, add to a bottle of minoxidil and shake vigorously. Personally, I’d try to keep such a solution from running down my body by washing my hair while leaning forward/rinsing the rest of my body after application. Finasteride is nasty, slow acting poison really, and systemic absorption via topical application is a thing. But I’d suspect that topical application on your scalp is going to be safer than swallowing the stuff.

 

[Attakai]

Have yet to see any real success story through peating in regards to reversing hairloss.
Plenty of people have reversed hair loss with Fin + Minoxidil
Some people have bad side-effects from Fin.

Take that as you will.

 

[CDT]

Ok @JamesGatz , can I recover my hair if I had trichotillomania previously?

 

[helpmyhair]

Are you in the U.S. there are many services like Walk In Labs, Quest Direct and Lab Corp that will let you order your own TSH, T4, T3 and prolactin tests. Desiccated thyroid products are available. Vitamin B6 and P-5-P are over the counter supplements that can suppress prolactin. Idea Labs has other products that can reduce prolactin in your lab animals for research purposes.

Consider changing endocrines within your health insurance coverage or public health system (I am not sure where you are located or what your access to health care is like). Also consider a local private practice provider or an online clinic. Sit down with a list of hypothyroid symptoms, review them and bring all that you are experiencing (along with your high TSH) to your new endos attention. If high prolactin, high TSH and low thyroid function are impacting the quality of life then aggressively seek treatment or figure out how to self treat. My hypothyroid friend feels terrible when her TSH is up past 3.0, living with a TSH of 4.5 must be horrible. My opinion is that hair loss is more of a symptom than a primary underlying disorder.

With respect to your questions. Yes, I do think options other than finasteride can halt hair loss. Coal tar and pine tar have a number of mechanisms of action. Which it why they are disliked by modern medicine. They are old school “dirty” treatments, not “clean” single molecule drugs like has been in fashion for nearly a hundred years now. They are loaded with different aromatic and carbon compounds. Off the top of my head ha! I can’t tell you why tar based shampoos work, just that they work well for me and seems to work for many others. I believe minoxidil works by keeping the hair follicles in a growth phase. I think it also has some effect on blood flow in small vessels. But whatever their mechanisms of action they seem to work.

The only side effect I’ve experienced is getting used to a shampoo that smells like pine charcoal or a railroad tie. And having to be cautious to keep minoxidil out of my eyes (it burns a little). Neither of these are a big deal compared to the chemical castration and nurosteroid train wreck that is finasteride. I’ve largely gotten my thyroid issues sorted out with T4/T3 though I am still chasing ideal weight loss/energy to dose ratio. I’ve also got my B1, B2, B6, B7, B12 and MNM levels up. My hair is thick and happy now.

Speaking in the spirit of harm reduction rather than traditional advice/opinion. Topical finasteride is widely available from international pharmacies, this indicates to me that it’s widely used topically outside the U.S. If you are really insistent on using finasteride then consider using it topically. It’s not hard to do a little math, crush pills into a fine powder, dissolve in just a little DMSO, add to a bottle of minoxidil and shake vigorously. Personally, I’d try to keep such a solution from running down my body by washing my hair while leaning forward/rinsing the rest of my body after application. Finasteride is nasty, slow acting poison really, and systemic absorption via topical application is a thing. But I’d suspect that topical application on your scalp is going to be safer than swallowing the stuff.

Thanks for the response. Yeah I don't want to touch fin, even topically. I had tried saw palmetto years ago which works like finasteride but to a lesser extend and got the same horrible sides mentioned with fin.

I am in Canada and unfortunately we only have public healthcare and all endocrinologists here will say that 4.5 TSH is normal. I believe once it gets over 5, it is considered high, but even then they won't treat it. I did bring up to my endo that I have loads of the symptoms of hypothyroidism, but he said all of those symptoms are general and could be from anything. One thing I am noticing for sure is that my mouth/lips/skin/hair are always so dry. My hair feels like hay. My mouth is dry constantly that I can barely talk for more than a few minutes. Water and electrolytes do nothing. Do you think it could be thyroid related? I just don't really understand supplementing with t3/t4 and when I did, it gave e huge stress response. Unlike many of the people on this forum, I'm not very well versed with science/health/etc. More of layman trying to understand but its tough for me. I also have insane amounts of anxiety/depression (going through the worst period of my life) so anything that can intensify it like T3 is a no go as it will put my over the edge. I can barely contain my anxiety right now just typing this.

Where does on get this pine tar shampoo you're referring to? Never heard of it. Should I start taking my B complex supplement again? I stopped because it can be stimulating, which is bad for my insomnia/anxiety. I hear MNM could be great for again, though its expensive.. maybe that made your hair thick? Have also heard it can help with grey hair which is a big issue for me.. I'm late 30s and started greying since I was young. Now I'm 50% grey and its getting to me.

One thing that worries me with minoxidil (other than the heart/blood pressure effects) is I've heard it can really age people's faces and give bad dark circles under eyes. Definitely want to maintain a youthful face as long as I can.

Really need a way to thicken up my hair. I have diffuse thinning, so if I could just thicken up, it would help my situation a lot. I know the stress of this difficult time is causing a lot of it, but its uncontrollable with what I'm going through. Not sure what I can take for the stress.