Aleeri
Member
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2018
- Messages
- 323
I've been researching this herb for a while now and also bought some expensive World A.B.S Icariin 60 extract to try soon. Anyone got experience to share concerning Icariin?
Something I find common with herbs is that the typical logic on this forum such as for example they are bad because NO is bad, estrogen is bad, etc does not hold up with them.
There are too many variables that don't make sense with this simplification and reductionism with plant compounds. I also wish that Ray Peat gave plant compounds more interest, he writes very little about them so they are hard to understand in his context of biology.
I've seen Ginseng getting bashed on this forum before because of NO and estrogenic, but this is one that Ray has talked favorably about even though its NO enhancing properties. Even though Ginseng is considered a type of phytoestrogen, it increases dopamine, testosterone and lowers cortisol and prolactin. Clearly, plants are not so simple.
For example, Icariin is considered bad, estrogenic and a NO booster here, but then there are interesting studies such as these:
Icariin attenuates lipopolysaccharide-induced microglial activation and resultant death of neurons by inhibiting TAK1/IKK/NF-κB and JNK/p38 MAPK pathways - ScienceDirect
An outline for the pharmacological effect of icariin in the nervous system - ScienceDirect
Also, in general, there is lots of talk on this forum about lowering estrogen and increasing androgens to improve libido and erectile function. It is well established that too high estrogen, as in estrogen dominance = erectile dysfunction and lots of other issues.
It is clear that Icariin improves erectile function and libido. If its nature was solely estrogenic would that still be the case? I think it's more complicated in that. Please name me a potent phytoestrogen that reliably increase libido in men, because I do not think there is much.
Studies like these are well known Icariin from Epimedium brevicornum Maxim promotes the biosynthesis of estrogen by aromatase (CYP19). - PubMed - NCBI
Keep in mind, however, "Human ovarian granulosa-like KGN cells were used to evaluate estrogen biosynthesis", is that really a good enough marker to consider Icariin estrogenic in men? There are others too, but none that show any real effect in real humans.
Here are some good points from a discussion: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5003053&page=1
If it's really estrogenic I find it very strange we have a potent phytoestrogen being extremely popular as a men's supplement for erectile function and libido. All in all, it does not make a whole lot of sense now does it?
Something I find common with herbs is that the typical logic on this forum such as for example they are bad because NO is bad, estrogen is bad, etc does not hold up with them.
There are too many variables that don't make sense with this simplification and reductionism with plant compounds. I also wish that Ray Peat gave plant compounds more interest, he writes very little about them so they are hard to understand in his context of biology.
I've seen Ginseng getting bashed on this forum before because of NO and estrogenic, but this is one that Ray has talked favorably about even though its NO enhancing properties. Even though Ginseng is considered a type of phytoestrogen, it increases dopamine, testosterone and lowers cortisol and prolactin. Clearly, plants are not so simple.
For example, Icariin is considered bad, estrogenic and a NO booster here, but then there are interesting studies such as these:
Icariin attenuates lipopolysaccharide-induced microglial activation and resultant death of neurons by inhibiting TAK1/IKK/NF-κB and JNK/p38 MAPK pathways - ScienceDirect
Here, we reported the discovery that icariin significantly inhibited the release of nitric oxide (NO), prostaglandin E (PGE)-2, reactive oxygen species (ROS) and mRNA expression of proinflammatory cytokines such as tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-α, interleukin (IL)-1β and IL-6 in lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-activated microglia. Icariin also inhibited the protein expression of inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) and cyclooxygenase (COX)-2 in a dose-dependent manner.
An outline for the pharmacological effect of icariin in the nervous system - ScienceDirect
Mechanistic studies have shown that icariin reverses: (i) chronic unpredictable stress (CUS)-induced increases in serum corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF) and cortisol levels (Pan et al., 2013); (ii) forced swim test (FST)-induced increases in brain monoamine oxidase A and B activities and serum CRF levels in brain tissues; and (iii) FST-induced decreases in monoamine neurotransmitter levels in brain tissues (Pan et al., 2005).
The anti-aging effect of icariin has been evidenced in mice in which long-term icariin treatment starting at 12 months of age was found to extend lifespan significantly (Zhang et al., 2015b). Such benefits may be associated with (i) the alteration of the oxidative balance in aging brains, including decrease in MDA and NOS activity and increase in glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px)/SOD activity (He et al., 2010); (ii) the decrease in acetylcholinesterase activity (He et al., 2010); (iii) the maintenance of genomic stability (Zhang et al., 2015b); and (iv) the induction of an ERK1/2-dependent activation of NSCs in aging brains (Wu et al., 2012). Regardless of mechanism, these findings indicate that icariin may help prolong lifespan and delay the onset of age-related pathological changes in the brain.
Also, in general, there is lots of talk on this forum about lowering estrogen and increasing androgens to improve libido and erectile function. It is well established that too high estrogen, as in estrogen dominance = erectile dysfunction and lots of other issues.
It is clear that Icariin improves erectile function and libido. If its nature was solely estrogenic would that still be the case? I think it's more complicated in that. Please name me a potent phytoestrogen that reliably increase libido in men, because I do not think there is much.
Studies like these are well known Icariin from Epimedium brevicornum Maxim promotes the biosynthesis of estrogen by aromatase (CYP19). - PubMed - NCBI
Keep in mind, however, "Human ovarian granulosa-like KGN cells were used to evaluate estrogen biosynthesis", is that really a good enough marker to consider Icariin estrogenic in men? There are others too, but none that show any real effect in real humans.
Here are some good points from a discussion: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5003053&page=1
As popular as horny goat weed is, I've not heard of it ever producing estrogenic side effects. Although 99% of HGW users are men, and they tend to use HGW only occasionally or for limited periods of time.
Originally Posted by triathelete04
Preparation of two derivatives from icariin and investigation of their estrogen-like effects.
Ye HY, Liu J, Lou YJ.
College of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Zhejiang University, Hangzhou 310031, China.
OBJECTIVE: To investigate the estrogen-like activities of icariin (ICA), icaritin (ICT) and desmethylicaritin (DICT) and their structure/activity relationships. METHODS: ICT was hydrolyzed from ICA by cellulase and then DICT was demethylated from ICT in boron tribromide and dichloromethane system....
obviuosly, icariin (which has no intrinsic estrogenicity on its own) is being converted to the pro-estrogenic metabolite icaritin via the enzyme 'cellulase'.
To my knowledge, humans do not possess cellulase. So, in humans there will not be a cellulase-mediated conversion of icariin to icaritin and other estrogenic substances.
I have gyno and Im very sensitive to estorgen and its related side effects. When I was alpha testing samples of Icariin for use in ACTX I used extracts of 10, 20, 50 and 90%. NONE caused estrogen related problems with me. Obviously I am only one person but I know my body and how it responds to drugs and supplements very well. Not everything you read in a study translates to what happens in the real world and not everything that happens in the real world shows up in a study. Take everything with a grain of salt and do as much research as you can both in the research dept and in real life.
If it's really estrogenic I find it very strange we have a potent phytoestrogen being extremely popular as a men's supplement for erectile function and libido. All in all, it does not make a whole lot of sense now does it?
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