Icariin, Is It Really Bad? --- Erectile Function, Libido, Stress, Aging, Anti-inflammatory

Aleeri

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I've been researching this herb for a while now and also bought some expensive World A.B.S Icariin 60 extract to try soon. Anyone got experience to share concerning Icariin?

Something I find common with herbs is that the typical logic on this forum such as for example they are bad because NO is bad, estrogen is bad, etc does not hold up with them.

There are too many variables that don't make sense with this simplification and reductionism with plant compounds. I also wish that Ray Peat gave plant compounds more interest, he writes very little about them so they are hard to understand in his context of biology.

I've seen Ginseng getting bashed on this forum before because of NO and estrogenic, but this is one that Ray has talked favorably about even though its NO enhancing properties. Even though Ginseng is considered a type of phytoestrogen, it increases dopamine, testosterone and lowers cortisol and prolactin. Clearly, plants are not so simple.




For example, Icariin is considered bad, estrogenic and a NO booster here, but then there are interesting studies such as these:

Icariin attenuates lipopolysaccharide-induced microglial activation and resultant death of neurons by inhibiting TAK1/IKK/NF-κB and JNK/p38 MAPK pathways - ScienceDirect

Here, we reported the discovery that icariin significantly inhibited the release of nitric oxide (NO), prostaglandin E (PGE)-2, reactive oxygen species (ROS) and mRNA expression of proinflammatory cytokines such as tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-α, interleukin (IL)-1β and IL-6 in lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-activated microglia. Icariin also inhibited the protein expression of inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) and cyclooxygenase (COX)-2 in a dose-dependent manner.

An outline for the pharmacological effect of icariin in the nervous system - ScienceDirect

Mechanistic studies have shown that icariin reverses: (i) chronic unpredictable stress (CUS)-induced increases in serum corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF) and cortisol levels (Pan et al., 2013); (ii) forced swim test (FST)-induced increases in brain monoamine oxidase A and B activities and serum CRF levels in brain tissues; and (iii) FST-induced decreases in monoamine neurotransmitter levels in brain tissues (Pan et al., 2005).

The anti-aging effect of icariin has been evidenced in mice in which long-term icariin treatment starting at 12 months of age was found to extend lifespan significantly (Zhang et al., 2015b). Such benefits may be associated with (i) the alteration of the oxidative balance in aging brains, including decrease in MDA and NOS activity and increase in glutathione peroxidase (GSH-Px)/SOD activity (He et al., 2010); (ii) the decrease in acetylcholinesterase activity (He et al., 2010); (iii) the maintenance of genomic stability (Zhang et al., 2015b); and (iv) the induction of an ERK1/2-dependent activation of NSCs in aging brains (Wu et al., 2012). Regardless of mechanism, these findings indicate that icariin may help prolong lifespan and delay the onset of age-related pathological changes in the brain.




Also, in general, there is lots of talk on this forum about lowering estrogen and increasing androgens to improve libido and erectile function. It is well established that too high estrogen, as in estrogen dominance = erectile dysfunction and lots of other issues.

It is clear that Icariin improves erectile function and libido. If its nature was solely estrogenic would that still be the case? I think it's more complicated in that. Please name me a potent phytoestrogen that reliably increase libido in men, because I do not think there is much.

Studies like these are well known Icariin from Epimedium brevicornum Maxim promotes the biosynthesis of estrogen by aromatase (CYP19). - PubMed - NCBI

Keep in mind, however, "Human ovarian granulosa-like KGN cells were used to evaluate estrogen biosynthesis", is that really a good enough marker to consider Icariin estrogenic in men? There are others too, but none that show any real effect in real humans.


Here are some good points from a discussion: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5003053&page=1

As popular as horny goat weed is, I've not heard of it ever producing estrogenic side effects. Although 99% of HGW users are men, and they tend to use HGW only occasionally or for limited periods of time.

Originally Posted by triathelete04
Preparation of two derivatives from icariin and investigation of their estrogen-like effects.

Ye HY, Liu J, Lou YJ.
College of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Zhejiang University, Hangzhou 310031, China.

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the estrogen-like activities of icariin (ICA), icaritin (ICT) and desmethylicaritin (DICT) and their structure/activity relationships. METHODS: ICT was hydrolyzed from ICA by cellulase and then DICT was demethylated from ICT in boron tribromide and dichloromethane system....


obviuosly, icariin (which has no intrinsic estrogenicity on its own) is being converted to the pro-estrogenic metabolite icaritin via the enzyme 'cellulase'.
To my knowledge, humans do not possess cellulase. So, in humans there will not be a cellulase-mediated conversion of icariin to icaritin and other estrogenic substances.

I have gyno and Im very sensitive to estorgen and its related side effects. When I was alpha testing samples of Icariin for use in ACTX I used extracts of 10, 20, 50 and 90%. NONE caused estrogen related problems with me. Obviously I am only one person but I know my body and how it responds to drugs and supplements very well. Not everything you read in a study translates to what happens in the real world and not everything that happens in the real world shows up in a study. Take everything with a grain of salt and do as much research as you can both in the research dept and in real life.




If it's really estrogenic I find it very strange we have a potent phytoestrogen being extremely popular as a men's supplement for erectile function and libido. All in all, it does not make a whole lot of sense now does it?
 
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Aleeri

Aleeri

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Summary of experiences with World abs 60% icariin horny goat weed. - AnabolicMinds.com

Some people suggested given what I noticed the product could have been spiked.

Yeah, I read this post before while researching on Google. I doubt it is spiked considering the high price of the product.

The high price range automatically makes it a niche product that many people won't buy. Spiking with a PDE5 inhibitor would make it cheaper if anything. PDE5 analogs are cheaper than any herbs.

Acetylcholine influence seems more likely for the spasms, but HGW is not very strong compared to other things on the market for this. I think you are sensitive to the herb or PDE5 inhibitors in general. I'll let you know my experience once I start it in about 5 days.

I've experienced breathing problems on Cialis before when I have experimented with that, but it's always been because it swells my sinuses as in stuffy nose.

I haven't made up my mind about PDE5 inhibition yet. I think it could be great to counteract some aspects of aging if you hit the dosage right. And I think it is impossible to hit the dosage right using any pharmaceutical PDE5 inhibitor, the inhibition becomes too strong. You want just enough inhibition to bring back cAMP/cGMP to youthful levels and keep it there.
 

Wagner83

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Yeah, I read this post before while researching on Google. I doubt it is spiked considering the high price of the product.

The high price range automatically makes it a niche product that many people won't buy. Spiking with a PDE5 inhibitor would make it cheaper if anything. PDE5 analogs are cheaper than any herbs.
I disagree with that. People buy a very expensive product, supposed to be a strong extract with big claims, they want strong results. I experienced important hair loss and complete shrinkage of testicles when I stopped. Those are big red flags I would think. It doesn't have to be spiked with a pde5 inhibitor, it can be something else.

Acetylcholine influence seems more likely for the spasms, but HGW is not very strong compared to other things on the market for this. I think you are sensitive to the herb or PDE5 inhibitors in general. I'll let you know my experience once I start it in about 5 days.

I've experienced breathing problems on Cialis before when I have experimented with that, but it's always been because it swells my sinuses as in stuffy nose.
I experienced bad muscle spasms, the breathing issues didn't have to do with stuffy nose, they were scarier than that.

I haven't made up my mind about PDE5 inhibition yet. I think it could be great to counteract some aspects of aging if you hit the dosage right. And I think it is impossible to hit the dosage right using any pharmaceutical PDE5 inhibitor, the inhibition becomes too strong. You want just enough inhibition to bring back cAMP/cGMP to youthful levels and keep it there.
But who is funding studies on cialis, viagra and other pde5 inhibitors? (As you know it's wise to wonder)
 

Sumbody

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I have used the Icariin product by World ABS, as well as their TKA (Tongkat Ali) product.

Unfortunately I used them both at the same time, so hard to tell which was responsible for what.

While on the two I noticed what appeared to be more muscle growth. Younger looking facial skin. It was like fine lines around my eyes had diminished or disappeared. More strength at work, and more spontaneous erections. Like after working, and getting into my vehicle to grab lunch, would have spontaneous erections while driving.

I did not have any negative effects that I could attribute to taking the supplements.

I did have one interesting morning however that had me briefly questioning the supplements, but I really don't think I can draw any conclusions that would lead one to believe the products were spiked.

Woke up one morning with a practically uncontrollable erection. After a night of beer drinking, while falling asleep I had some sexual thoughts. I did take the one TKA pill that evening as it is dosed 3x /day, morning, noon, night. And I had taken the HGW earlier that day or perhaps even earlier that morning.

Woke up and could not stop thinking about sex, erections persisted on and off practically until noon.

This is a state I have been in before after a night of drinking, but it was amplified 10 fold, possibly because of the supps, but I don't think I can attribute it solely to the supplements. Or them being spiked as I just kind of woke up that way. Would be easier to assume the product was spiked if I had taken them and experienced that 30 min to an hour afterwards, but this wasn't the case.

Overall I would definitely take them again, (perhaps one at a time) I really liked them.
 
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Aleeri

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I disagree with that. People buy a very expensive product, supposed to be a strong extract with big claims, they want strong results. I experienced important hair loss and complete shrinkage of testicles when I stopped. Those are big red flags I would think. It doesn't have to be spiked with a pde5 inhibitor, it can be something else.

But who is funding studies on cialis, viagra and other pde5 inhibitors? (As you know it's wise to wonder)

The thing is that the product is many many times more expensive than the average of this type on the market. Spiking it would leave room for a lower price and a lower price would make them a ***t ton of more money. I know because I am a supplement manufacturer myself.

The Icariin 60 product has been on the market for many years and the World A.B.S brand is very well known for their quality products. They are the market leader for Tongkat Ali and that product has a lot of positive and legit reviews. I've used that one in the past.

If it was spiked with a PDE5 analog it would have a much faster onset. Spiked with testosterone or steroid? Possible but I highly doubt it, the effects of that would not fit the use of the product. I have many friends on TRT etc that don't get any improvement in erections or libido.



Concerning PDE inhibition I meant only how PDE and cAMP/cGMP works in the body, general studies on that. I agree and have no doubt that at least part of the studies on cialis and viagra we're made just to make the products sound better and sell more.

But the effects of PDE5 on cAMP/cGMP are very interesting, coffee is also a PDE inhibitor for example:

Effect of caffeine on erectile function via up-regulating cavernous cyclic guanosine monophosphate in diabetic rats. - PubMed - NCBI

So bashing PDE5 inhibitors just on the basis of NO like what happens a lot on this forum is very reductionist, especially considering that coffee is considered a very good thing here and it essentially has the same effects, just at a much lower potency.
 
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Aleeri

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I have used the Icariin product by World ABS, as well as their TKA (Tongkat Ali) product.

Thanks for sharing. I have used the TKA product as well, it is very strong. I had similar experiences with it as you mention concerning spontaneous erections. After alcohol I can definitely see how it becomes more, I remember reading about alcohol and hangovers before that they can cause some hormonal rebound. On top of the TKA that probably explains your erections.

I had to stop the TKA product though, it gave me rapid heartbeat and feeling too hot in a tropical climate to be able to use it. I also had estrogen problems before I started it and it did not seem to make that better, despite it being said that Tongkat Ali can act as a estrogen blocker too.
 

Tarmander

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I have always wanted to try HGW and have heard from some older gentleman that it simply cannot be beat for keeping them "up and atem." The company Zhou really used HGW to put their supplements on the map as well before they were bought out by nutraceutical.
 

Sumbody

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The only negative effect I seemed to get from HGW, which I forgot to mention.

And while this can work out well for some, for me it was unnecessary. But with HGW being a natural/mild PDE5 inhibitor, it is common for those type of drugs/herbs to make climax more difficult to achieve. Or just prolonging the duration it may take to reach climax.

For some this would be beneficial. For others who don't have premature issues, that could be a slight annoyance depending on how you feel about that.
 
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Aleeri

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The only negative effect I seemed to get from HGW, which I forgot to mention.

And while this can work out well for some, for me it was unnecessary. But with HGW being a natural/mild PDE5 inhibitor, it is common for those type of drugs/herbs to make climax more difficult to achieve. Or just prolonging the duration it may take to reach climax.

For some this would be beneficial. For others who don't have premature issues, that could be a slight annoyance depending on how you feel about that.

Yeah for me it is beneficial, orgasming has always been easy for me. Not like premature but whenever I decide that I will not focus on trying to not orgasm then it's easy to do.
It's weird this, always wondered why.

PDE5 inhibitors triple my stamina in terms of orgasm, I actually like it since it makes sex more relaxing for me.
 

Tarmander

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The only negative effect I seemed to get from HGW, which I forgot to mention.

And while this can work out well for some, for me it was unnecessary. But with HGW being a natural/mild PDE5 inhibitor, it is common for those type of drugs/herbs to make climax more difficult to achieve. Or just prolonging the duration it may take to reach climax.

For some this would be beneficial. For others who don't have premature issues, that could be a slight annoyance depending on how you feel about that.

That is pretty interesting. I used to have real problems with having orgasm, could go for hours. As I have gotten older that has become better...but don't want to go back to the "good ole days"
 

Wagner83

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The thing is that the product is many many times more expensive than the average of this type on the market. Spiking it would leave room for a lower price and a lower price would make them a ***t ton of more money. I know because I am a supplement manufacturer myself.

The Icariin 60 product has been on the market for many years and the World A.B.S brand is very well known for their quality products. They are the market leader for Tongkat Ali and that product has a lot of positive and legit reviews. I've used that one in the past.

If it was spiked with a PDE5 analog it would have a much faster onset. Spiked with testosterone or steroid? Possible but I highly doubt it, the effects of that would not fit the use of the product. I have many friends on TRT etc that don't get any improvement in erections or libido.
Sarms are other potential culprits, prohormones, AIs etc.. Where do you get that they are reknowned and trusted for their quality products? They are the only ones I have seen who claimed they are great, albeit with decent skills, and they use heavy prices, they also claim to have a high protodioscin TT. They have those self attributed, self created Tongkat Ali awards which I find quite funny. The only other person I heard talk about them positively was area1255 but he was banned from many forums because of his tendency to spam. Btw back when I tried it Swanson also carried a 50 % icariin extract.


Concerning PDE inhibition I meant only how PDE and cAMP/cGMP works in the body, general studies on that. I agree and have no doubt that at least part of the studies on cialis and viagra we're made just to make the products sound better and sell more.

But the effects of PDE5 on cAMP/cGMP are very interesting, coffee is also a PDE inhibitor for example:

Effect of caffeine on erectile function via up-regulating cavernous cyclic guanosine monophosphate in diabetic rats. - PubMed - NCBI

So bashing PDE5 inhibitors just on the basis of NO like what happens a lot on this forum is very reductionist, especially considering that coffee is considered a very good thing here and it essentially has the same effects, just at a much lower potency.
It's not just a pde inhibitor, this aspect is studied and emphasized to benefit from the already established publicity on boosting NO and inhibiting pde5. Anyways I'm not making particular recommendations based on this one property, it's part of the picture. If the product wasn't spiked and I lost my hair as well as saw my testicles shrank massively off it (think adzuki beans size) and had scary muscle spasms (scary for breathing) because of the extract itself then there is good reason for concerns despite the other effects, even if some may not notice them as much as I did. When I had asked haidut about it, he told me to search for 'icariin estrogen' and "hgw/epimedium estrogen".
 
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Aleeri

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Sarms are other potential culprits, prohormones, AIs etc.. Where do you get that they are reknowned and trusted for their quality products? They are the only ones I have seen who claimed they are great, albeit with decent skills, and they use heavy prices, they also claim to have a high protodioscin TT. They have those self attributed, self created Tongkat Ali awards which I find quite funny. The only other person I heard talk about them positively was area1255 but he was banned from many forums because of his tendency to spam. Btw back when I tried it Swanson also carried a 50 % icariin extract.

It's not just a pde inhibitor, this aspect is studied and emphasized to benefit from the already established publicity on boosting NO and inhibiting pde5. Anyways I'm not making particular recommendations based on this one property, it's part of the picture. If the product wasn't spiked and I lost my hair as well as saw my testicles shrank massively off it (think adzuki beans size) and had scary muscle spasms (scary for breathing) because of the extract itself then there is good reason for concerns despite the other effects, even if some may not notice them as much as I did. When I had asked haidut about it, he told me to search for 'icariin estrogen' and "hgw/epimedium estrogen".

I have tested lots of different Tongkat Ali extracts and I have also done lab analysis on a bunch to source for my company, so I have lots of experience with this herb. That's why I can tell the effects of their TKA product is legit (not spiked) and very potent as would be expected of a high-quality extract. I have also had my blood tested while using their TKA product.

There are quite a bit of posts online about their TKA product and they really selected some of the best herbs/compounds in the industry for their products. Overall I am impressed with them as a company, maybe that also makes me biased but I have no issues with giving them my money lol.

Yeah, I see your reasoning, it makes sense. Epimedium has been used for thousands of years in TCM without causing estrogen-related problems in men but solving their libido issues. None of the estrogen-related studies are made in men. Honestly, I think it's as easy as the hormone boosting effect is gender-specific, as in boosts T in men and E/Prog in women.

I will get back to you about my experience with the product soon after I started it.
 

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