Androgen Deficiency As The Main Cause Of Chronic Disease In Males

[Aleeri]

I still wonder if DHT is partly responsible for MPB.
When I was 22 my T was in 3.9ng/ml .Range 2.8-8. Testicular volume 15ml.
I did not get treatment in Germany. My cortisol is dysregulated due to resulting depression and psychiatric illnesses.
At least, I thought that it protects me against balding. aand it seems that too high T and DHT can result in balding in genetically predisposed individuals.

I always found this a hard statement to be reasonable.

Too high T almost always equals too high estrogen also from aromatase, so the question then is, is it really the T that is the problem or the estrogen?

High DHT or normal DHT but low T is often seen among aging men that have high estrogen levels (DHT is anti-estrogenic so it makes sense as the body would use it to balance, adaptive mechanism?). The question then is, is it really the DHT that is the problem or is it the estrogen?

What we generally know is that DHT is a pretty awesome hormone, estrogen is not.

 

[Dhair]

High DHT or normal DHT but low T is often seen among aging men that have high estrogen levels

What makes you think this is true?

 

[Aleeri]

What makes you think this is true?

Age Trends in the Level of Serum Testosterone and Other Hormones in Middle-Aged Men: Longitudinal Results from the Massachusetts Male Aging Study | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic

"Dehydroepiandrosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, cortisol, and estrone showed significant longitudinal declines, whereas dihydrotestosterone, pituitary gonadotropins, and PRL rose longitudinally."

"At least one important T metabolite, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), apparently remains constant despite the decline of its precursor (9–12)."

I speculate myself that it has something to do with the age decline in progesterone levels and/or rise in SHBG.

 

[klauban]

I always found this a hard statement to be reasonable.

Too high T almost always equals too high estrogen also from aromatase, so the question then is, is it really the T that is the problem or the estrogen?

High DHT or normal DHT but low T is often seen among aging men that have high estrogen levels (DHT is anti-estrogenic so it makes sense as the body would use it to balance, adaptive mechanism?). The question then is, is it really the DHT that is the problem or is it the estrogen?

What we generally know is that DHT is a pretty awesome hormone, estrogen is not.

If estrogen was responsible for hair loss,it would be mostly seen in young women?
There are also reports on anabolic steroids users who develop balding and there is balding or receding under TRT.

I also think that one cannot deduct that DHT is safe for prostate since older men who have issues have lower levels longitudinaly.
It is more exposure over time that has the effects on the organ. So older men had more time being exposed to the hormone compared to younger men.
Same with penis size.I do not want to sound funny but given my status during puberty with cortisol and basicalky hypogonadism ,i should have a rather small penis. Ironically, this is not the case at all.
It seems to be a question of "sufficuent amount of ligand over time".

 

[Aleeri]

If estrogen was responsible for hair loss,it would be mostly seen in young women?
There are also reports on anabolic steroids users who develop balding and there is balding or receding under TRT.

I also think that one cannot deduct that DHT is safe for prostate since older men who have issues have lower levels longitudinaly.
It is more exposure over time that has the effects on the organ. So older men had more time being exposed to the hormone compared to younger men.
Same with penis size.I do not want to sound funny but given my status during puberty with cortisol and basicalky hypogonadism ,i should have a rather small penis. Ironically, this is not the case at all.
It seems to be a question of "sufficuent amount of ligand over time".

It's always about the different ratios of hormones in relation to each other, never about one hormone per say. This is why the young women thing would never hold up. Men need completely different ratios of T to Estrogen than women do to stay healthy.

When it comes to steroid users these ratios are simply very messed up. Besides the majority of side effects from steroids are because of aromatization into estrogen, the safest steroids that have fewer side effects are always the ones that can't convert into estrogen.

Actually, DHT cream has been used to treat men with BPH. There is also lots of stuff that points toward maintaining healthy levels of T (which also means together with DHT) is crucial to avoid prostate cancer. There is some interesting research:

Testosterone Replacement Therapy and Prostate Cancer Incidence

"At higher levels, when all androgen receptors are bound, higher testosterone levels will not further stimulate prostate cells. Such a theory is supported by the observation that men with a testosterone level >250 ng/dL will not see a change in PSA when placed on testosterone supplementation [8]. In contrast, men with a baseline testosterone level <250 ng/dL will experience a rise in PSA with testosterone treatment."

Effects of Transdermal Dihydrotestosterone in the Aging Male: A Prospective, Randomized, Double Blind Study | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic

"Transdermal administration of DHT improves sexual function and may be a useful alternative for androgen replacement. As estrogens are thought to play a role in the pathogenesis of prostate hyperplasia, DHT may be beneficial, compared with aromatizing androgens, in the treatment of aging men."

 

[Douglas Ek]

Why does balding as a result from androgens bother people. Sure having hair looks better but hormones doesnt care about how you look. Why try and justify that DHT aint the cause of balding. Its like saying estrogen isnt the cause of breasts or what ever just to support your view of whats astetic. I believe if you are genetically predisposed to baldin then having high DHT increases this. But what are you gonna do about that? Take finasteride. No ******* way. Bald can be cool if you can rock a bad **** beard. But your dealt the hand you have in this life. Sure i wish i founded microsoft or that my **** was 20 inches but i didnt and its not lol. Sure i wish i didnt lose my hair on my head but i am what ever. Depressing as **** to moan about that ***t my whole life

 

[Aaron]

Why does balding as a result from androgens bother people. Sure having hair looks better but hormones doesnt care about how you look. Why try and justify that DHT aint the cause of balding. Its like saying estrogen isnt the cause of breasts or what ever just to support your view of whats astetic. I believe if you are genetically predisposed to baldin then having high DHT increases this. But what are you gonna do about that? Take finasteride. No ******* way. Bald can be cool if you can rock a bad **** beard. But your dealt the hand you have in this life. Sure i wish i founded microsoft or that my **** was 20 inches but i didnt and its not lol. Sure i wish i didnt lose my hair on my head but i am what ever. Depressing as **** to moan about that ***t my whole life

Because hair thinning is a symptom of broader dysfunction. Men weren't sexually selected or designed to go bald while we are in our sexual prime. In fact, a full head of hair, just like a mouth that fits all 32 teeth in alignment and with healthy enamel, is one of the best indicators of having a "wealth of health." Women are deeply attracted to traits associated with good health and having genes that will pass that health onto their kids. As we age, various factors take a toll on our bodies and eventually basic maintenance like cleaning the liver, staving off infection, etc become damaged and less efficient, causing our bodies to allocate that energy away from the biologically dispensible function of maintaing a full crop of hair.

A healthy young male should be vibrant, organically charismatic, euphoric, explosive, powerful, creative, resilient, and free from pain or other chronic issues, with a thick, shiny head of fully pigmented hair and thick, tight, dewy, glowing skin to match. Most young males are not this way and lose hair because of whatever dysfunction is holding them back from reaching their physical potential. Most balding men are either physically or mentally frail or prematurely aged.

That's the double whammy of hair loss: not only are you losing the thing that made you seem healthy and attractive, but it signifies that your health overall is on the decline.

 

[Luckytype]

Why does balding as a result from androgens bother people. Sure having hair looks better but hormones doesnt care about how you look. Why try and justify that DHT aint the cause of balding. Its like saying estrogen isnt the cause of breasts or what ever just to support your view of whats astetic. I believe if you are genetically predisposed to baldin then having high DHT increases this. But what are you gonna do about that? Take finasteride. No ******* way. Bald can be cool if you can rock a bad **** beard. But your dealt the hand you have in this life. Sure i wish i founded microsoft or that my **** was 20 inches but i didnt and its not lol. Sure i wish i didnt lose my hair on my head but i am what ever. Depressing as **** to moan about that ***t my whole life

Do you truly believe in your rational brain though that a couple of hormones that peak at 21 and stay in mens bodies for years even decades before hairloss starts is the true cause of balding?

I keep an open mind for many things but theres no way it can change the way it does like the flick of a switch for many guys.

By pure chance there are other issues present in a lot of bald guys? AND some bald dudes have high/medium/low T and DHT? Not a chance is isolated focally like that

 

[Aaron]

Do you truly believe in your rational brain though that a couple of hormones that peak at 21 and stay in mens bodies for years even decades before hairloss starts is the true cause of balding?

I keep an open mind for many things but theres no way it can change the way it does like the flick of a switch for many guys.

By pure chance there are other issues present in a lot of bald guys? AND some bald dudes have high/medium/low T and DHT? Not a chance is isolated focally like that

IMO, it's fibrosis, inflammation, water retention, atherosclerosis, and other degenerative processes that result in the hair follicles not being fully nourished and metabolically supported. Hair loss is just as complex as various forms of skin aging, and even the best topicals for skin aging don't work well at all. Much like skin aging, it's very hard to reverse and it requires a much more multifaceted approach than just buying a product in a bottle.

 

[Luckytype]

IMO, it's fibrosis, inflammation, water retention, atherosclerosis, and other degenerative processes that result in the hair follicles not being fully nourished and metabolically supported. Hair loss is just as complex as various forms of skin aging, and even the best topicals for skin aging don't work well at all. Much like skin aging, it's very hard to reverse and it requires a much more multifaceted approach than just buying a product in a bottle.

Oh im right there with you on that. I usually post something like that when people focus on one isolated cause or one isolated supplement.

I always say zoom out

 

[Ras]

IMO, it's fibrosis, inflammation, water retention, atherosclerosis, and other degenerative processes that result in the hair follicles not being fully nourished and metabolically supported. Hair loss is just as complex as various forms of skin aging, and even the best topicals for skin aging don't work well at all. Much like skin aging, it's very hard to reverse and it requires a much more multifaceted approach than just buying a product in a bottle.

I wonder, though, why I see babies with bald areas identical to the aged? I saw a male child just two days ago with somewhat bald temples and a vertex. I'm inclined to see a connection there that I've not read others explore to its end: why would a baby be bald in the same areas we find in many post-pubescent men? What in puberty and subsequent years causes those specific follicles to later hibernate?

 

[Aaron]

I wonder, though, why I see babies with bald areas identical to the aged? I saw a male child just two days ago with somewhat bald temples and a vertex. I'm inclined to see a connection there that I've not read others explore to its end: why would a baby be bald in the same areas we find in many post-pubescent men? What in puberty and subsequent years causes those specific follicles to later hibernate?

Perhaps the most taxing hair to grow is the hair that's lost first. Fundamentally that could be because the front and top of the scalp tend to be thinner, tighter, and with less blood supply. I think it's quite clear that the body allocates a fair amount of energy into developing and maintaining our head hair compared to all the other hair we grow, and the best reason for that is the exposed human scalp is sexually deselective and ugly. In children the hair becomes noticeably thicker at around age 8 due to the increase in androgens that occurs at this time, and then it thickens more during puberty, but before that it's relatively thin and receded, with a lot of baby hairs coming up. I think the body puts more energy toward growing hair during the time of sexual peaking/developing. That hair then loses biological value for sexual reproduction once you begin to age, perhaps in part because financial/social status become more important and as maintenance costs for the body increase. Sexual prime seems to be between ~14-22 (in terms of fertility and sex drive). To some extent, maintaining the relatively low-stress, high-dopamine energetic state of an adolescent may be helpful in signaling the body to maintain head hair. Men seem to lose the most hair after a divorce or once settled into a mediocre relationship, or when impotent, depressed, anxious, or submissive (all high E states, which results in the high DHT states you often see - even if DHT isn't the deciding factor in hair loss), regardless of age. It also makes sense that hair loss would happen more to men than women, because women have evolved to remain sexually attractive until menopause, while men's bodies have evolved to prioritize providing and protecting as we grow older. Women with thinning hair are almost universally less fertile or infertile as well.

I'm aware there are a dozen other explanations but I believe this is a piece of the puzzle.

 

[Douglas Ek]

Do you truly believe in your rational brain though that a couple of hormones that peak at 21 and stay in mens bodies for years even decades before hairloss starts is the true cause of balding?

I keep an open mind for many things but theres no way it can change the way it does like the flick of a switch for many guys.

By pure chance there are other issues present in a lot of bald guys? AND some bald dudes have high/medium/low T and DHT? Not a chance is isolated focally like that

For years? Most men who go bald start in their teens and slowly lose it. By their 40s most is gone. Its not a flick of a switch. All my friends whos gone bald started typically when they where 16. What happens around that age? An increase in androgens. Usually their fathers are bald aswell. But guess both of their fathers and sons all just got health issues suddenly in their teens lol.

 

[Douglas Ek]

Women evolved to remain sexually attractive? Someone just said the same about men and still men lose hair and women dont. I never seen a bald women unless she has cancer

For years? Most men who go bald start in their teens and slowly lose it. By their 40s most is gone. Its not a flick of a switch. All my friends whos gone bald started typically when they where 16. What happens around that age? An increase in androgens. Usually their fathers are bald aswell. But guess both of their fathers and sons all just got health issues suddenly in their teens lol.

 

[Douglas Ek]

The fact that women dont have balding problem and men do. Also that all guys ive seen go bald started getting thinner hair in their teens at the age of around 16. Their fathers are all bald aswell. But guess women can equally as easy go bald and all bald men just has health problems.

 

[Luckytype]

For years? Most men who go bald start in their teens and slowly lose it. By their 40s most is gone. Its not a flick of a switch. All my friends whos gone bald started typically when they where 16. What happens around that age? An increase in androgens. Usually their fathers are bald aswell. But guess both of their fathers and sons all just got health issues suddenly in their teens lol.

Of all the people(ill use a high school class of 350) i knew in my teens, nobody was balding. Not a single person. In fact, i would say only 15 percent developed the typical pattern baldness maybe by their mid twenties. And maybe only 20 percent have even begun to lose their hair. Of that 20 probably 50 percent went bald or what many would consider bald in probably 5 years.

My shedding started two years ago like the flick of a switch and that switch is almost flipped back the other way -i lose only few a day.. My testosterone is normal and has been higher at other times in my life. The group of highschool reference people are 34-35. All various careers and lives, some easy, some stressful most of us have our hair.

I jumped on fixing my metabolism, not hacking away at androgens

 

[Aaron]

Women evolved to remain sexually attractive? Someone just said the same about men and still men lose hair and women dont. I never seen a bald women unless she has cancer

You don't seem to understand my basic points, and to top it off you lack observation skills. Forty percent of women have visible hair loss by the time they are age 40, according to the American Academy of Dermatology.

 

[Aaron]

Of all the people(ill use a high school class of 350) i knew in my teens, nobody was balding. Not a single person. In fact, i would say only 15 percent developed the typical pattern baldness maybe by their mid twenties. And maybe only 20 percent have even begun to lose their hair. Of that 20 probably 50 percent went bald or what many would consider bald in probably 5 years.

My shedding started two years ago like the flick of a switch and that switch is almost flipped back the other way -i lose only few a day.. My testosterone is normal and has been higher at other times in my life. The group of highschool reference people are 34-35. All various careers and lives, some easy, some stressful most of us have our hair.

I jumped on fixing my metabolism, not hacking away at androgens

I doubt you've been observing and collecting this kind of data on a representative sample of your high school class. A better sample to observe would be people who have been captured in revealing photos for many years on end so we can observe the process of balding. And pretty much every celeb thins gradually over time, starting in their 20's (though many/most celebs get hair transplants by middle age so you have to be aware of that). Brendan Fraser, James Spader, Nicolas Cage, John Travolta, Bruce Willis, Bradley Cooper, etc all started thinning young and it continued until the point where it was noticeable.

What makes hair loss seem sudden is that there is a sort of threshold you reach after losing tens of thousands of hairs over the course of several years, where you have thinned enough that you can't pull off your complimentary haircut and suddenly go from "full head of hair" to "bald" in the eyes of a casual observer. There are things that will accelerate it but generally the process is chronic, gradual damage.

 

[Luckytype]

I doubt you've been observing and collecting this kind of data on a representative sample of your high school class. A better sample to observe would be people who have been captured in revealing photos for many years on end so we can observe the process of balding. And pretty much every celeb thins gradually over time, starting in their 20's (though many/most celebs get hair transplants by middle age so you have to be aware of that). Brendan Fraser, James Spader, Nicolas Cage, John Travolta, Bruce Willis, Bradley Cooper, etc all started thinning young and it continued until the point where it was noticeable.

What makes hair loss seem sudden is that there is a sort of threshold you reach after losing tens of thousands of hairs over the course of several years, where you have thinned enough that you can't pull off your complimentary haircut and suddenly go from "full head of hair" to "bald" in the eyes of a casual observer. There are things that will accelerate it but generally the process is chronic, gradual damage.

You have a point however of those that have pattern hair loss it has a pretty distinct look. I can see this hard to disguise look when they post every holiday on social media. I can see it on days like fathers day where their wives take photos of them bending down to play with their children unaware that the back of their head is showing. Some you see, many you dont.

The "confirmation" with the pattern loss is the overall look they present with, aging faces, a distinct undereye look, maybe a body comp change. There is a completely different look of the face of guys that dont have hair loss.

When you say most celebs I doubt youve been collecting the actual data on it. Obviously there are clear cut cases(James Franco was brought to my attention) and its pretty easy to identify what went on there but of those that dont have a mysterious recovery, whats the arguement there? Like Clooney, his actual face presents much different compared to Nic Cage and especially Travolta. Has Clooney had a transplant and just by chance looks to be in a different state of health?

The issue with conversation of hair loss and comparing regular people and celebs is the fact that theres luck involved. Then there is the ability to modulate stress better. Add to that the amount of perceived stresses that a given person experiences and how they cope. Some people have been careful with their bodies, others not.

Google Sammy Hagar vs Bill Clinton meme. Big difference, both celebs.

Im completely onboard with an accumulated degenerative change but there are ways to battle it provided people want to commit to it. And dont get me wrong Im sure the 300 or so people are by chance a "lucky" sample, its not the overall case. Even through college and after I rarely saw people with hair loss. Its not a direct product of high androgens despite them being present.

 

[Aaron]

You have a point however of those that have pattern hair loss it has a pretty distinct look. I can see this hard to disguise look when they post every holiday on social media. I can see it on days like fathers day where their wives take photos of them bending down to play with their children unaware that the back of their head is showing. Some you see, many you dont.

The "confirmation" with the pattern loss is the overall look they present with, aging faces, a distinct undereye look, maybe a body comp change. There is a completely different look of the face of guys that dont have hair loss.

When you say most celebs I doubt youve been collecting the actual data on it. Obviously there are clear cut cases(James Franco was brought to my attention) and its pretty easy to identify what went on there but of those that dont have a mysterious recovery, whats the arguement there? Like Clooney, his actual face presents much different compared to Nic Cage and especially Travolta. Has Clooney had a transplant and just by chance looks to be in a different state of health?

The issue with conversation of hair loss and comparing regular people and celebs is the fact that theres luck involved. Then there is the ability to modulate stress better. Add to that the amount of perceived stresses that a given person experiences and how they cope. Some people have been careful with their bodies, others not.

Google Sammy Hagar vs Bill Clinton meme. Big difference, both celebs.

Im completely onboard with an accumulated degenerative change but there are ways to battle it provided people want to commit to it. And dont get me wrong Im sure the 300 or so people are by chance a "lucky" sample, its not the overall case. Even through college and after I rarely saw people with hair loss. Its not a direct product of high androgens despite them being present.

George Clooney has had a hair transplant. He had an NW3 in the 90's and was very receded in Syriana. Clinton just has the face of someone with very bad heart issues.

James Franco also got a transplant recently and he looks better than ever. I wonder how his NW3 younger brother feels about that.


I guess we basically agree that it can be gradual, but I believe it's a LOT more common than you think, as in affecting the vast majority of men. Density loss is not noticeable at all for the first several years.