"I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"

[Tarmander]

I realized that early on, but other members obviously didn't/couldn't. You would have avoided numerous demands for clarification if you had explicitly attributed your reasoning to TCM in the first place.

As for your concerns over quality control, you can find very high quality herbs as long as you're willing to pay. If you have a trusted practitioner, he'll either know what brands are safe, or better yet come up with a custom-made mix ordered from a dispensary. If you trust the Chinese perspective, maybe it's worth trusting their tools as well, that's all I'm saying.

There have been other threads on the forum about Chinese medicine. I wanted to approach it from a different perspective, more Peat, to hopefully gain new insights. A thread about TCM would just be a thread about TCM.

Quality control is an issue with Chinese herbs from my perspective and past experience. Maybe you have different experiences. Gaining value from a perspective that is thousands of years in the making is quite different then trusting modern herb cultivating practices.

 

[InChristAlone]

You're welcome! :) I'm really glad you're doing better. It sure was a tough year for you and I. I'm happy to report that my mold level is now in the normal range. My doctor was shocked. It only took me a little over 3 months of being very strict with my diet. When it was first discovered, I had read accounts from people who had it for over 2 years and still continued to struggle. I was like "What?! Another 2+ years of this?! God help me!" lol

Oh, wow! Yeah, so he's tiny. My cousin's daughter is the same way, however, she was born with a large bump on her head near her pituitary so I question if it's somehow affecting it. It's some kind of calcium lump. My whole family has an issue with our parathyroids/calcium metabolism. Is your son's pediatrician concerned with his height? He/she could always check his pit. but if he's healthy otherwise, maybe he'll just be a late grower. Does your son like coconut water? It makes a good Gatorade. Lots of potassium and other electrolytes. I get the ones in the cold section like Harmless Harvest and Waterhill Naturals. Their water comes from from Thai coconuts so it's nice and sweet. :)

Oh that's so great you got through that mold stuff!! Yeah we are going through a pending sale on our house, so hopefully I"ll continue to improve out of our moldy house (well it doesn't smell moldy now we took care of some of the damage). Bringing it back to the liver issue, I've been getting good results from coffee enemas.

Yeah his ped. never seemed too concerned about his height, but I think it's slowed down even more since we've been to her. Which is what happened to me too and I was projected to be like 4'11 at most. Yeah I could see if he likes the coconut water, but he is resistant to change sooooo much. Probably one of the limiting factors in all this.

 

[yerrag]

@Tarmander, I thought to share my experience lately. After reading about liver detox, with the discussion and shared links and all, I replied to KateLove on an issue with low temps, and thought I'd also share with this thread my experience.

I had lately been stumped with low temperatures, and I couldn't figure out why. But I connected dots and from what I've recently learned about the liver detox pathways, I may an answer to it.

My context: My waking and daily temps were okay. It was after I started to take my lead detox supplements (PectaClear and some supplement to help the liver detox such as selenomethionine, vitamin E, P5P, NAC) that I started to wake up very often at night to urinate. I didn't make the connection yet at that time, but it coincided also with me taking some topical supplementation of Tyromix, StressNon, and Progestene. My temperature dropped and I wondered how on earth could these hormones effect lower temperatures. I stopped the hormones, but my waking temperature remained low, and my peak temperature at 5pm didn't get back to 36.5 C (armpit), which would be a normal temperature as it is equivalent to a temp of 37 C oral.

It just so happened that I listened to a Generative Energy podcast where haidut was saying that he recommend taking more fat at night, so that the release of glucose into the blood would be slowed down that it would have the effect of trickling glucose into the blood while asleep, thereby keeping glucose levels more stable and lessening the need for cortisol to be produced. So before heading to bed, I made a mix of 2/3 milk and 1/3 fresh coconut milk (with the usual gelatin, sugar, and salt), and took it in. I slept soundly that night, and woke up finding my waking temperature had been restored to normal. I also defecated a little after waking up. I didn't urinate that much the whole night, and that was what accounted for the better sleep.

From this experience, I'm starting to think that the fat intake would have triggered more bile production, and that at night, the liver was flushing toxins into my stools instead of my urine. It made my sleep have less interruptions, by the lesser need for urination, and the restful sleep allowed the liver to replenish my glycogen stores fully, and perhaps the fat intake really kept my blood sugar levels stable and normal, that my waking temperature was back to normal, because there was sufficient metabolism at work when I woke up.

Most importantly, I think that a liver detox would cause more toxins to be flushed out, and that when they are being flushed out by urine, there would be plenty of urine generated, and this would interrupt our sleep. By taking more fats before sleep, it would channel the toxins towards the bile, and into the stools, and this would keep the kidneys from generating much urine, and let us have a better sleep, and with more sleep, the detox could be more effective because at restful sleep, the liver also experiences less interruption in carrying out its work of detoxification.

I wonder if this lines up with any of your experiences in detoxifying the liver.

 

[Daniel11]

There have been other threads on the forum about Chinese medicine. I wanted to approach it from a different perspective, more Peat, to hopefully gain new insights. A thread about TCM would just be a thread about TCM.

Quality control is an issue with Chinese herbs from my perspective and past experience. Maybe you have different experiences. Gaining value from a perspective that is thousands of years in the making is quite different then trusting modern herb cultivating practices.

TCM practitioners are always kind of interesting people, but i find their perspectives on healing some what antiquated and they work with a medical language and mind set that not many westerners really understand. TCM can have a kind of poetic beauty and some relate to it, but i feel for many people it can take away the sense of power, knowledge and intuition needed as part of ones own healing process.

There are some traditional Chinese herbs grown organically in the West now, but i have never seen anyone reverse hypothyroidism or intestinal dysbiosis with acupuncture, Chinese or Western herbs. The ironic thing is that the Chinese people are now one of the largest consumers of Western made supplements.

If anyone has a real interest in combining Eastern and Western understanding of herbs, this book is a unique reference i have enjoyed over the years.

“Comprehensive and detailed, it draws on Chinese and Greek herbal medicine to integrate traditional herbal energetics with the latest findings in plant pharmacology.”

https://www.amazon.com/Energetics-Western-Herbs-Integrating-Therapeutics/dp/1890029424/

 

[mjs]

Changa piedra is also good for the liver and breaking up liver/gallbladder stones. Same with apple juice - it contains malic acid that supposedly helps to dissolves stones..

Becareful with just using Chanca Piedra when you have a bad liver/galbladder, same with large amounts of Apple Juice btw. Stuff can get messed up if you don't flush it.

 

[ivy]

@Tarmander @Daniel11,
I'm by no means an exclusive follower of TCM, but I've been able to reap the benefits of an interorgan narrative of disease before I came across Peat. Western medicine, on the other hand, says nothing is wrong with my liver, disregards the spasms in my bowels, wants to treat acute breast change with extra estrogen and has no protocol for hairloss in females besides minoxidil and spironolactone. Naturopaths, iridologists and others will most likely recommend detoxification procedures which are too violent for hypothyroid people. I've had severe reactions to the famous gallbladder/liver Epsom salt cleanse and also suffered with the well-meaning advice to drink alkaline water, which caused further damage to an already weak stomach. So indeed I'd rather invest on herbs and occasional acupuncture, if I have enough money. It's not just that TCM is less harmful: a TCM practitioner will be making his diagnosis according to pulse and tongue, much less subjective than anything I might describe. As far as I can tell, TCM is, in theory at least, equipped to respond to every sign of Peat's concept of "metabolic winter". That's why it feels so valuable. Ayurveda probably has a lot to offer as well as an adjuvant therapy.

 

[Jennifer]

Oh that's so great you got through that mold stuff!! Yeah we are going through a pending sale on our house, so hopefully I"ll continue to improve out of our moldy house (well it doesn't smell moldy now we took care of some of the damage). Bringing it back to the liver issue, I've been getting good results from coffee enemas.

Yeah his ped. never seemed too concerned about his height, but I think it's slowed down even more since we've been to her. Which is what happened to me too and I was projected to be like 4'11 at most. Yeah I could see if he likes the coconut water, but he is resistant to change sooooo much. Probably one of the limiting factors in all this.

Oh, that's awesome, Janelle! I hope the sale goes through and you continue to improve.

Ah, okay. Yeah, the coconut water may be a hard sell since it lacks the saltiness Gatorade has. If he also suffers from a form of anxiety (Would a major resistance to change be a form of anxiety?), his adrenals could be making him crave the salt in it.

 

[Jennifer]

Becareful with just using Chanca Piedra when you have a bad liver/galbladder, same with large amounts of Apple Juice btw. Stuff can get messed up if you don't flush it.

You had a bad experience with the Chanca, smid?

I used it back when I was having daily gallbladder attacks and within 15 minutes or so of taking it for the first time, I had an attack and after that they stopped completely. I continued to take the rest of the 4oz bottle (tincture) over the course of a month or so and haven't had any residual side effects.

 

[Jennifer]

Naturopaths, iridologists and others will most likely recommend detoxification procedures which are too violent for hypothyroid people. I've had severe reactions to the famous gallbladder/liver Epsom salt cleanse and also suffered with the well-meaning advice to drink alkaline water

I know you weren't addressing me, but wanted to say that I agree that some naturopaths can be too aggressive with their recommendations for detoxing.

 

[ivy]

I know you weren't addressing me, but wanted to say that I agree that some naturopaths can be too aggressive with their recommendations for detoxing.

Feel free to comment, absolutely. I've read your posts in other threads and forums, so I'm well aware of your journey so far. :)

 

[mjs]

You had a bad experience with the Chanca, smid?

I used it back when I was having daily gallbladder attacks and within 15 minutes or so of taking it for the first time, I had an attack and after that they stopped completely. I continued to take the rest of the 4oz bottle (tincture) over the course of a month or so and haven't had any residual side effects.

No I'm having a good experience with it cause I'm flushing afterwards. Good to hear It probably broke a "stone" that was causing you pain, and you didnt had any noticable side effects from it. But the stuff is still there behind closed doors. It can cause more trouble if it's free on the roll' and ready to attack new parts, with other effects on the body and mind.

next time when you have a similar attack, try a tablespoon of Epsom salt in a glass of water, it will bring you relief

 

[Jarman]

This thread has @tyw written all over. He talks about liver and adrenal all the time and is the expert of it. He's also the expert of TCM and knows how to decipher its wordings to plain average Joe's language. Such as spleen meaning adrenal in western medicine. @tyw is the to go guy in liver-TCM department IMO

 

[ivy]

This thread has @tyw written all over. He talks about liver and adrenal all the time and is the expert of it. He's also the expert of TCM and knows how to decipher its wordings to plain average Joe's language. Such as spleen meaning adrenal in western medicine. @tyw is the to go guy in liver-TCM department IMO

Thanks, let's hope he'll join us! Plus it's great to see you pitch in the spleen in this discussion!

 

[Tarmander]

@Tarmander, I thought to share my experience lately. After reading about liver detox, with the discussion and shared links and all, I replied to KateLove on an issue with low temps, and thought I'd also share with this thread my experience.

I had lately been stumped with low temperatures, and I couldn't figure out why. But I connected dots and from what I've recently learned about the liver detox pathways, I may an answer to it.

My context: My waking and daily temps were okay. It was after I started to take my lead detox supplements (PectaClear and some supplement to help the liver detox such as selenomethionine, vitamin E, P5P, NAC) that I started to wake up very often at night to urinate. I didn't make the connection yet at that time, but it coincided also with me taking some topical supplementation of Tyromix, StressNon, and Progestene. My temperature dropped and I wondered how on earth could these hormones effect lower temperatures. I stopped the hormones, but my waking temperature remained low, and my peak temperature at 5pm didn't get back to 36.5 C (armpit), which would be a normal temperature as it is equivalent to a temp of 37 C oral.

It just so happened that I listened to a Generative Energy podcast where haidut was saying that he recommend taking more fat at night, so that the release of glucose into the blood would be slowed down that it would have the effect of trickling glucose into the blood while asleep, thereby keeping glucose levels more stable and lessening the need for cortisol to be produced. So before heading to bed, I made a mix of 2/3 milk and 1/3 fresh coconut milk (with the usual gelatin, sugar, and salt), and took it in. I slept soundly that night, and woke up finding my waking temperature had been restored to normal. I also defecated a little after waking up. I didn't urinate that much the whole night, and that was what accounted for the better sleep.

From this experience, I'm starting to think that the fat intake would have triggered more bile production, and that at night, the liver was flushing toxins into my stools instead of my urine. It made my sleep have less interruptions, by the lesser need for urination, and the restful sleep allowed the liver to replenish my glycogen stores fully, and perhaps the fat intake really kept my blood sugar levels stable and normal, that my waking temperature was back to normal, because there was sufficient metabolism at work when I woke up.

Most importantly, I think that a liver detox would cause more toxins to be flushed out, and that when they are being flushed out by urine, there would be plenty of urine generated, and this would interrupt our sleep. By taking more fats before sleep, it would channel the toxins towards the bile, and into the stools, and this would keep the kidneys from generating much urine, and let us have a better sleep, and with more sleep, the detox could be more effective because at restful sleep, the liver also experiences less interruption in carrying out its work of detoxification.

I wonder if this lines up with any of your experiences in detoxifying the liver.

Thanks for the write up here. You are being very detailed, which is awesome for making progress. I always found the really ground breaking stuff when I was extremely detailed oriented. Although it can be draining. The trap that I have fallen into is assigning an experience to a specific process happening in the body. It is useful to have descriptions, but I always remember that I do not know the whole story. I am not sure if your better sleep and raised temp is due to what you describe. True the fat could trigger more bile, but maybe it also just supported your blood sugar more then usual(like you mentioned), or the gelatin lowered inflammation more then usual. There are way too many details to account for to get a real picture that is very detailed. But that does not mean we shouldn't try. And a murky looking map is better then no map at all.

The real underlying point is that you moved towards something that was better then what you were experiencing before. The question I would ask now is...is that move repeatable? Did it work once or twice and then no more? Can you drink this fat rich drink every night and get the same result? Or at some point do you have worse sleep and feel heavy? The journey is funny because all you really have is this murky map and you are moving towards what you think is good, oriented towards what you think is better then where you are now. But there are all these forks and sometimes they lead to dead ends and you have to double back...and sometimes you realize the whole trail you are on is not oriented towards something that is actually good and you have to pick up and get on that other trail over there.

Some other things to consider. There may be some overlap between urine and stool for detoxification, but from the reading on phase 1 and 2 detox, I did not get the sense that you body could go with whatever was more convenient. There is some process where toxins have an affinity for the pathways.

My experience detoxing the liver is murky to me. I measure it by how my skin looks mostly...also if I get a cyst in a lymph spot I know things are not on the right path. I am aiming for what the practitioner above me wrote about whereby you have mechanical detoxification everyday that is not stressful on the body. I do not want detox that is intense and momentary, because long term that only works when there is a specific need, and I am not aware of any need like that in myself. So I am more focused with doing things that support the liver and kidneys, but in a sustainable way. I want to be able to do it everyday...forever. So I monitor stability in weight, skin, sleep, ability to focus, and some other things. My current trials are with thyroid, TUDCA, increased calcium, increased choline, and a lot more fruit then usual. Things have not fallen off the tracks yet

 

[Tarmander]

@Tarmander @Daniel11,
I'm by no means an exclusive follower of TCM, but I've been able to reap the benefits of an interorgan narrative of disease before I came across Peat. Western medicine, on the other hand, says nothing is wrong with my liver, disregards the spasms in my bowels, wants to treat acute breast change with extra estrogen and has no protocol for hairloss in females besides minoxidil and spironolactone. Naturopaths, iridologists and others will most likely recommend detoxification procedures which are too violent for hypothyroid people. I've had severe reactions to the famous gallbladder/liver Epsom salt cleanse and also suffered with the well-meaning advice to drink alkaline water, which caused further damage to an already weak stomach. So indeed I'd rather invest on herbs and occasional acupuncture, if I have enough money. It's not just that TCM is less harmful: a TCM practitioner will be making his diagnosis according to pulse and tongue, much less subjective than anything I might describe. As far as I can tell, TCM is, in theory at least, equipped to respond to every sign of Peat's concept of "metabolic winter". That's why it feels so valuable. Ayurveda probably has a lot to offer as well as an adjuvant therapy.

Definitely valuable. I agree. We do have to be wary of falling into the mysticism trap, but some of the insights offered by TCM are invaluable

 

[mjs]

@Tarmander to reply to your starting post:
My real health journey started with TCM about 3 years ago. I tried several diets to fix my IBS/candida problems, that made me off course weaker and even more estrogenic. And also done a few months Matt Stone's idea of All you can eat (but-have-a-eye-on-the-PUFA). But that made me a slow blown up teddy kiddy bear.
Within 2 treatments of needles on the right places and some herbs I was running around in the nearby forest cause I was experiencing fresh air coming in my nose since a long time, and apperantly quite allot of ener-chi cause I was already 24+hours awake. I had intense sweat and laughter "flyby's" (can't call them attacks cause they were so enjoyable) in bed that night before. A day later I was totally down and out for some days. Tried it several times more. Plus also others methods and techniques who he truly believed would have any effect, but sadly: no real chi flowing. I didn't knew jacksh*t of the human body then, and it was a real eye opener how it could work.

After that I came on the route curing Lyme Disease through alternative therapy, which was tough, and it came clear that it was all down to, you guessed it; my liver.
All the pieces fell into places, I now know my liverfunction has been bad since my childhood. I flushed it over 15 times, and as I'm getting quite well on the sugar and protein this week, it's a better state now.

@Daniel11 something diff then red light, but Photon light has been a huge part of my healing process. You can't actually see them, until you turn of the light and grab a Samsung phone. It goes right trough the skin.
It's really pure light that shed light on subjects in your personal space.

It's funny cause today I came across the bottles with Chinese herbs, and was thinking about trying some of them out now I clearly further down my road allthough I highly doubt the quality of these herbs now too yes...

 

[Daniel11]

@Tarmander @Daniel11,
I'm by no means an exclusive follower of TCM, but I've been able to reap the benefits of an interorgan narrative of disease before I came across Peat. Western medicine, on the other hand, says nothing is wrong with my liver, disregards the spasms in my bowels, wants to treat acute breast change with extra estrogen and has no protocol for hairloss in females besides minoxidil and spironolactone. Naturopaths, iridologists and others will most likely recommend detoxification procedures which are too violent for hypothyroid people. I've had severe reactions to the famous gallbladder/liver Epsom salt cleanse and also suffered with the well-meaning advice to drink alkaline water, which caused further damage to an already weak stomach. So indeed I'd rather invest on herbs and occasional acupuncture, if I have enough money. It's not just that TCM is less harmful: a TCM practitioner will be making his diagnosis according to pulse and tongue, much less subjective than anything I might describe. As far as I can tell, TCM is, in theory at least, equipped to respond to every sign of Peat's concept of "metabolic winter". That's why it feels so valuable. Ayurveda probably has a lot to offer as well as an adjuvant therapy.

Hi Ivy! Sounds like you have a very healthy approach to TCM and healing yourself. I have seen women with similar symptoms to you respond very well to red light therapy, besides greatly improving thyroid functioning you can place the light on your liver and spleen (with light touching skin angled up slightly facing under ribs) and also very helpful for women to place the light on their lower belly over your uterus for hormonal balance.

Using the light completely turned around years of suffering for me and many people i know have had similar experience.

This is the exact light i use and recommend.

Red Light Device Mini - Red Light Man

Here is some pages with good info.

Light therapy improves hypothyroidism - Red Light Man

Red Light Therapy Treats Yeast Infections - Red Light Man

 

[Daniel11]

@Tarmander to reply to your starting post:
My real health journey started with TCM about 3 years ago. I tried several diets to fix my IBS/candida problems, that made me off course weaker and even more estrogenic. And also done a few months Matt Stone's idea of All you can eat (but-have-a-eye-on-the-PUFA). But that made me a slow blown up teddy kiddy bear.
Within 2 treatments of needles on the right places and some herbs I was running around in the nearby forest cause I was experiencing fresh air coming in my nose since a long time, and apperantly quite allot of ener-chi cause I was already 24+hours awake. I had intense sweat and laughter "flyby's" (can't call them attacks cause they were so enjoyable) in bed that night before. A day later I was totally down and out for some days. Tried it several times more. Plus also others methods and techniques who he truly believed would have any effect, but sadly: no real chi flowing. I didn't knew jacksh*t of the human body then, and it was a real eye opener how it could work.

After that I came on the route curing Lyme Disease through alternative therapy, which was tough, and it came clear that it was all down to, you guessed it; my liver.
All the pieces fell into places, I now know my liverfunction has been bad since my childhood. I flushed it over 15 times, and as I'm getting quite well on the sugar and protein this week, it's a better state now.

@Daniel11 something diff then red light, but Photon light has been a huge part of my healing process. You can't actually see them, until you turn of the light and grab a Samsung phone. It goes right trough the skin.
It's really pure light that shed light on subjects in your personal space.

It's funny cause today I came across the bottles with Chinese herbs, and was thinking about trying some of them out now I clearly further down my road allthough I highly doubt the quality of these herbs now too yes...

That's great your feeling better using light for healing, it so simple yet profound.

Of all the Vitamins i have seen universally giving the best results it is Vitamin D. I have not needed any for awhile but if i was to be in an airplane, had dental work or got a flue or infection i would definitely mega dose on Vitamin D, also good during the long winter months.

In Europe doctors will sometimes give their patients 500,000 IU of Vitamin D once a year!

When i was taking vitamin D i preferred high doses of 50,000 IU once every week or two, i have taken 200,000 IU at a time for a few days in a row with very good results.

It never cured my hypothyroidism but i have seen single high doses of Vitamin D really transform some people, especially with general malaise, influenza, colds, mild depression, immune system support etc…

I prefer the water-soluble Vitamin D made by Biotech Pharmacal. I have tried many brands this one was far superior in results for me and other people i have given it to, and they sell in 50,000 IU capsule sizes!

Amazon.com: Biotech Pharmacal - D3-50 (50,000iu) - 100 Capsules: Health & Personal Care

I would often take high doses of vitamin A and K around same time, ideaLabs has a good A and K, but i much prefer Biotech Pharmacal for Vitamin D.

I do feel vitamins are often over relied upon and taken for to long a time, i think the goal is to get to the point we should not need to take vitamins very often if at all, but when your not feeling good high dose Vitamin D can really help quickly move things in the right direction.

I know for some of you this approach of short term high dosing may seem unusual or not be your style but i think its worth exploring and learning more about.

This link has lots of good info and references on using high doses of vitamin D.

One pill every two weeks gives you all the vitamin D most adults need | Vitamin D Wiki

 

[tara]

Yes, parsley and dandelion are also good for the kidneys as well as ... couch grass root ...

Really? Is this the one you mean? Elymus repens - Wikipedia (not this one: Cynodon dactylon - Wikipedia)
I've been musing for years about if only the couch/twitch was good for something, since I have such an abundance of it. :) A bit of a job to get them clean enough to make tea out of, though.

Which is what happened to me too and I was projected to be like 4'11 at most.

I know there may be social consequences of being much shorter than average, and it might not be great if he's aspiring to be a basketball player, but is it possible that there's no need/benefit to treating it from a health point of view? I'm pretty sure there was a thread with a study or two discussing this issue a while back (maybe as much as a couple of years, and I'm afraid I can't remember enough to search for it properly ATM). I think they showed that treatment to increase growth did not improve health or longevity. Extra tall people tend to have shorter lives, but short people don't particularly. There's been speculation that there may be some benefit to a higher ratio of nerves to mass, or even of the shorter distance they have to travel from the brain.

 

[InChristAlone]

I know there may be social consequences of being much shorter than average, and it might not be great if he's aspiring to be a basketball player, but is it possible that there's no need/benefit to treating it from a health point of view? I'm pretty sure there was a thread with a study or two discussing this issue a while back (maybe as much as a couple of years, and I'm afraid I can't remember enough to search for it properly ATM). I think they showed that treatment to increase growth did not improve health or longevity. Extra tall people tend to have shorter lives, but short people don't particularly. There's been speculation that there may be some benefit to a higher ratio of nerves to mass, or even of the shorter distance they have to travel from the brain.

You are right! Many health benefits to being short! :) and even if we gave him a few yrs of growth hormone he'd probably still be below average, I am not sure yet. I think it would be a last resort. I have deformed wrists that only started after the shots. Also my feet grew very long! I'm a 9!