A Guess: I Have Massive Congestive Liver And Liver Pain Due To Massive Estrogen And Alcohol Needhelp

[TreasureVibe]

I don't know. I hope you found a good doctor to figure it out.

Thanks dbh!

 

[tara]

What did the doctor says/he thought was going on?

Read the link, amazing how alcohol itself doesn't cause direct damage but rather the sugars its converted into cause nutritional deficiencies and those are responsible for degenerative disease of the liver. But my main quarrel right now is with these huge, perhaps even dangerous doses of estrogen just sitting all over my body in my tissues, making me feel more and more like cr4p everyday as the days pass by. And my liver apparently shuts down when I try to detox it using progesterone, as the load off feeling is very small and as soon as the andro stops working I get the feeling I'm about to get a heart attack, breathlesness etc.

AIUI, excessive alcohol can cause a lot of harm both by displacing nutrition and thereby causing multiple serious deficiencies, and also because some of the metabolites can cause trouble in themselves (eg acetaldehyde).
I'm no expert, so don't take anything I say as medical advice. My thoughts are that an approach to recovery could include at least the following as a basis for whatever else you may try: reduce the toxic burden, and replenish depleted nutrition.

I'm not clear whether you have stopped drinking alcohol, which you seemed to say in one place, or whether you still do drink some, which you seem to say elsewhere. I'd strongly recommend stopping completely. Other people may be able to get away with some alcohol without obvious harm, but for you, even a single drink is likely to add a burden on your liver that it does not seem to currently have the resources to deal with, and which will make it even harder to do its other jobs including removing estrogen and other toxins.
If it's hard to stop completely, get local support, eg AA. If you are still in the habit of any other obvious poisons, give them up too.

Add plenty of supportive nutrition. I'm not sure exactly what that would mean for you, but my hunch would be a lot of fruit and a lot of veges (maybe as broths if the solids bother) and a little regular liver, oysters, etc could be part of it, and avoiding refined 'empty' calories that don't bring with them plenty of minerals and vitamins. Watch for how you respond to foods. If milk and cheese agree with you, then the can be good. Gelatinous broths likewise. Watch cronometer to see if you are regularly getting generous amounts of essential micros.
Remember B-vits, and consider supplementing. Peat is wary of supplemental forms of vit-C, but remember that vit-C is needed for healing. I'm not sure if there is a case sometimes for supplementing anyway - there are proponents here, and I use some sometimes - but I think you need more than minimum maintenance amounts while healing - you can also check out high vit-C fruit, if you can get good quality fresh etc.

I don't recall what your diet is.
I assume you are keeping PUFAs low.

Keep an eye on transit, so that it is fast enough to prevent endotoxin build up and absorption. Endotoxin can make the liver's job harder. Raw carrot salad, cooked mushrooms, cooked bamboo shoots are some of Peat's suggestions for helping keep the gut cleaner. If necessary, consider supporting this with a little aged cascara occasionally, and/or activated charcoal.

In addition to considering type and quantity of nutrition, you might want to consider timing. Space it to avoid extremes of stressful hunger or burdomsome overeating at single meals. In general, it seems common for us to digest best round midday. Some people do well sleeping with an empty gut, some need supper to refill glycogen to get through the night, etc.

Hydration - drinking a little regularly rather than massive amounts occasionally, so there is always some water for the system to work with for transporting healing materials and wastes, and it's not having to work too hard to manage excesses.

Will drinking milk, which contains estrogen but is easily secreted normally, be wise to do in my state of high toxic estrogenity with clogged liver?

I don't think there's a generic answer guaranteed to work for you ... try for a few days with and without it, and see. I don't think it's automattically going to be a negative, but it might be - depends on you. If you have trouble digesting lactose, or your digestion is not strong enough for the proteins, or you get overwhelmed by casomorphins or you are allergic or something, it may be more than it's worth. Some people thrive on milk, some do well with particular kinds and not others, and some do better with cheese or yogurt (and others can't be doing with fermented versions) etc.

Good luck.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I'm getting an inflammation blood test, will that be enough?

It depends. I don’t know if Ray Peat is too fond of mainstream inflammation markers. But what I mean is you need at least some liver function tests (ALT AST GGP fractionated bilirubin etc.) before you can say your liver is struggling. You cannot base it on pain because it does not have any nerves in it. You can easily guess that your liver is slowish and it is probably true for most people, but anything more would need a blood test.

 

[benaoao]

Yeah I have, I'm going to get my blood tested soon.

Will drinking milk, which contains estrogen but is easily secreted normally, be wise to do in my state of high toxic estrogenity with clogged liver?

Milk is only a good idea if youre in prime health and want to grow as a kid / grow muscles maybe.

In a society where liver is constantly hammered with fatty, sugary foods plus nobody talks about sulfation and glucuronidation... you’re better off avoiding industrial, man-made transformed foods. Modern Milk is one of those.

Increasing Glucuronidation: Detox Bad Estrogens, Balance Hormones, Prevent Cancer - Selfhacked

This would be a layman friendly start.

The first step is always fixing the diet. You said it’s crap, do your homework there instead of hunting for a magic-ish pill

 

[danishispsychic]

Activated charcoal, coffee enemas, The Master Cleanse, Lemons, Dr Stuarts Liver Detox Tea, Intermittent Fasting healed my liver and.... Colonics. Clean the colon before cleaning out the liver.

 

[Spondive]

Hey all. I am just figuring what my health problem is that I suffer from and I think I have an idea now.

I have gnawing pain at times when laying too long on my back with a blanket or pillow pushing into the side, and when I drink alcohol I suddenly feel really bad in liver area, and I had huge spikes of estrogen and PUFA before due to T abuse. It's now just sluggish and not processing all the estrogen that's still left in me. I drank alot of alcohol in the past.

What can I do best for liver congestion to get things flushing?

I need something that really packs a punch.

Saw TUDCA but was dissapointed to read that it's just overhyped taurine. (Thanks Haidut)

Would dessicated thyroid do it? Or will I need other nutrients with that in order for it to work?

Note - Diet is currently cr4p, trying to make a new diet. I need a liver recovery diet.

I'm thinking of coffee enema but I'm afraid it will mess with my electrolytes.

Thanks.

 

[Spondive]

I have similar situation with my liver..I emailed Peat and his biggest thing with liver is getting rid of endotoxin burden particularly suggesting raw carrot salad and antibiotics.

With that aside my liver has improved to almost normal by liver enzymes and much less palpable liver by using 5-10k of glycine twice a day and 2-4 k of taurine twice a day B vitamins including biotin and folate. coffee and aspirin and phlebotomy(iron reduction). Ah yes and occasional charcoal.

Diet is not totally Peaty where by I don’t drink a lot of milk I go by what I crave..I do hdrink some milk and have ice cream but are not mainstays..I do try to substitute coconut oil for as some of my saturated fat sources and I use pure cocoa butter also

 

[TreasureVibe]

Thanks everyone!!

 

[tara]

Sorry if I've missed or forgotten it, but have you posted a detailed diet on any of your threads yet? If you have, would you be willing to link to it here, and if not, maybe do post it here?
I doubt you can meaningfully address liver health, or get meaningful advice, without looking at what you are feeding yourself - it's the most basic factor affecting the liver.

 

[TreasureVibe]

Sorry if I've missed or forgotten it, but have you posted a detailed diet on any of your threads yet? If you have, would you be willing to link to it here, and if not, maybe do post it here?
I doubt you can meaningfully address liver health, or get meaningful advice, without looking at what you are feeding yourself - it's the most basic factor affecting the liver.

I am in the middle of thinking out a good diet right now! I will post it soon.. I am researching alot into my own disease right now which is an autoinflammatory disease. What can you tell me about those? Thnx!

 

[tara]

I am researching alot into my own disease right now which is an autoinflammatory disease. What can you tell me about those?

Not a great deal.
You've had a go at searching what Peat's said about 'autoimmune'? eg Search. Have you been reading Peat's articles on his site on various topics? They can give a bit of a background perspective, as well as sometimes interesting clues on specifics. I think it's worth doing some of that as well as pursuing particular diagnoses, particularly with idiopathic ones.

These following are hunches/guesses.

Some people say there may be some cross reactions/potentially causal relations with some common foods that can show up as (or look like) autoimmune issues.
- gluten (wheat, rye, barley, maybe oats)
- nightshades (eg tomatoes, potatoes)
- some common food additives, eg gums like carrageenan (Peat's written about this one specifically), commonly used to thicken dairy products and icecream
I imagine that a leaky gut would not be helpful - would let in too much junk that the system (esp. liver, immune) struggles to deal with. So attending to gut health could be really important.

There are others that have written about their recovery from complex and difficult situations. IIRC, Pakpik was one - you might want to look at her posts.

 

[stsfut]

OP how’s your liver doing?

 

[Waynish]

Wow thanks man, I'm a real mess. When I drink coffee I will start to feel cold, hyperventilative-ish, weak, panicky, dissociative and even as if I'm going to pass out. I'm having huge estrogen problems, Andro makes me able to breathe. Will MCT/good quality coconut oil, fasting/low carb help for detoxing estrogen from the body too? I can fast very easily, I can just ignore my hunger in my stomach and it goes away. What does this tell?


I drank alot of beers every weekend, vodka every weekend, even throughout the week I would drink vodka sometimes. I would get home drunk off my feet in the weekend. People always recommended me to have a good meal first before starting to drink but I always ignored that advice, to my health's detriment. Some weekends I just didn't eat at all other than some small snacks and went straight to drinking. The hangover from the day before plus cigarette smoking had removed all of my appetite. I smoked half a pack and sometimes a pack per day. Did that for 7 years, then stopped all of it, including smoking.


Wow I'm definitely going to try that then! I've used NAC before and I liked the overall anti oxidant boosting feeling it gave me. Liposomal glutathione seems expensive to me though.. Is it really special for the liver or is it more of a generic type of supplement? I've read SOD was helping someone here very good, what do you think of that for the liver?


Read the link, amazing how alcohol itself doesn't cause direct damage but rather the sugars its converted into cause nutritional deficiencies and those are responsible for degenerative disease of the liver. But my main quarrel right now is with these huge, perhaps even dangerous doses of estrogen just sitting all over my body in my tissues, making me feel more and more like cr4p everyday as the days pass by. And my liver apparently shuts down when I try to detox it using progesterone, as the load off feeling is very small and as soon as the andro stops working I get the feeling I'm about to get a heart attack, breathlesness etc.


Wow those studies do look impressive... Perhaps TUDCA + NAC + ...SOD?


Yeah I am looking into TUDCA.

@Jpkoepse @benaoao Which one of these are a good TUDCA product? It appears regular online vendors don't sell it. TUDCA | eBay


Yeah it sounds like the perfect thing to aid in my really entrenched liver metabolism. I'm just full of estrogens that can't get removed successfully and TUDCA sounds cool. Would adding dessicated thyroid with T3 also help liver metabolism and subsequent estrogen detox from the body?


Does someone also know what it means if progesterone just makes you feel even badder, and your urine being unsually smelly after using prog + andro? Is it estrogen or just the exogenous hormones?
Thanks for the help so far everybody, I really feel like I can beat this thing!

No harm in trying a coffee enema once and rest up afterwards. Do you still get that reaction to coffee with the cold limbs & passing out? There are some exercises I would recommend to increase the liver's activity. I've seen them more effective than any chemical/supplemental means.

 

[theordinarydude]

No harm in trying a coffee enema once and rest up afterwards. Do you still get that reaction to coffee with the cold limbs & passing out? There are some exercises I would recommend to increase the liver's activity. I've seen them more effective than any chemical/supplemental means.

Hi,

Can you please advice, what exercises are those?

 

[Waynish]

Hi,

Can you please advice, what exercises are those?

I DM'd you